Counters (Full Version)

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benpark -> Counters (6/7/2007 9:01:23 PM)

Could we get a zoomed in screen shot using the counters graphics? Thanks.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Counters (6/8/2007 7:50:21 PM)

Ben,

Is this what you were looking for?



[image]local://upfiles/9/3C493492A620404E8E153866DE1B5CFC.jpg[/image]



Laryngoscope -> RE: Counters (6/9/2007 5:13:58 AM)

A Panther with a stumpy gun???????



freeboy -> RE: Counters (6/11/2007 11:46:37 AM)

ks like one of those goffy 1-48 scale tanks with wheels on them made as knock off of good companies.. lol



IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/11/2007 3:01:48 PM)

Sorry about the barrel - because of the length of the barrel we either had to greatly scale down the graphic to fit in the 128 pixel width, which ended up with a lot of wasted space ( and actually made the Pather smaller than the older tanks with shorter guns) so didn't look so nice, chop of the end of the barrel, which also didn't look nice, or make it look stumpy.



Laryngoscope -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 10:54:36 AM)

In the pic about it looks like there is extra space the gun could grow into?



IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 12:18:41 PM)

The image is used in more than one place and needs to fit all of them. In addition the images size is actually 128x128 and it's filling that already. It's not technically impossible to fix, it was just that we found the problem too late in the process to go back and change everything else.



HansBolter -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 1:36:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The image is used in more than one place and needs to fit all of them. In addition the images size is actually 128x128 and it's filling that already. It's not technically impossible to fix, it was just that we found the problem too late in the process to go back and change everything else.


And I am sorry to have to point out that it is already costing you a serious hit to the game's credibility!

Anyone with any wargaming experience or knowledge of history should have had the foresight to realize that a horizontal rectangular display format would be necessary to depict late war tanks accurately while maintaining a scale proportion relevant to the depiction of early war tanks.

Frankly, sacrificing the scale proportion relationship and depicting late war tanks as a smaller graphic would have been the better choice.



IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 1:43:26 PM)

Sometimes I think people forget that their own opinions are only opinions and not facts ;)



Marc von Martial -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 2:04:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The image is used in more than one place and needs to fit all of them. In addition the images size is actually 128x128 and it's filling that already. It's not technically impossible to fix, it was just that we found the problem too late in the process to go back and change everything else.


And I am sorry to have to point out that it is already costing you a serious hit to the game's credibility!

Anyone with any wargaming experience or knowledge of history should have had the foresight to realize that a horizontal rectangular display format would be necessary to depict late war tanks accurately while maintaining a scale proportion relevant to the depiction of early war tanks.

Frankly, sacrificing the scale proportion relationship and depicting late war tanks as a smaller graphic would have been the better choice.



Does the game also "loose credibility" because the Panther only uses one camo job for all theatres [8|]?



HansBolter -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 2:44:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Sometimes I think people forget that their own opinions are only opinions and not facts ;)


Methinks that sometimes designers and publishers forget the fact that consumers make purchases based on their opinions. [:'(]



HansBolter -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 2:47:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

The image is used in more than one place and needs to fit all of them. In addition the images size is actually 128x128 and it's filling that already. It's not technically impossible to fix, it was just that we found the problem too late in the process to go back and change everything else.


And I am sorry to have to point out that it is already costing you a serious hit to the game's credibility!

Anyone with any wargaming experience or knowledge of history should have had the foresight to realize that a horizontal rectangular display format would be necessary to depict late war tanks accurately while maintaining a scale proportion relevant to the depiction of early war tanks.

Frankly, sacrificing the scale proportion relationship and depicting late war tanks as a smaller graphic would have been the better choice.



Does the game also "loose credibility" because the Panther only uses one camo job for all theatres [8|]?



No Marc, of course not. Taking any point to the level of the absurd in order to belittle it does not in any way, shape or form undermine the validity of it. Anyone can engage in the game of extrapolation to the absurd. It acomplishes nothing. [:-]

Depicting a panther as though it is armed with a 37mm gun is a decided faux pas from the perspective of this particular grognard consumer. Take the offer of constructive criticism, or leave it. [;)]



Laryngoscope -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 2:52:05 PM)

Iain, are your armour models internal renders?

One option would be to re render with the turret facing out of the page and that way everyone would be happy.

In some ways I agree with Hans. Just as easy to get this kind of stuff right rather than wrong. Such a simple little thing ...

quote:


Does the game also "loose credibility" because the Panther only uses one camo job for all theatres


In the game of monopoly no one complains that there is a dog playing piece larger than a battleship, nor that they are all silver! Players recognize that they are symbolic. However if the dog was made with an abnormally small head (compared to its body), I think most players would think that rather odd and would likely comment on the fact that the dog was horribly misshapen [;)]




IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 3:16:42 PM)

Absolutely we understand that & value your input.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of design decisions to be made in every game. It's ok for you not to agree with us on all of them. If you didn't agree with most of them then you wouldn't even be looking at teh game :) If one of our decisions does not tie up with what you think should have been done, then it's fine for you to disagree - "I think you should have done X". It's not the same thing to state that the game has lost all credability because of said design decision. 

I've already lost count of the number of times we have the "lost credability" line thrown at us, and each time for a completely different design decision :)



HansBolter -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 3:24:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

Absolutely we understand that & value your input.

The point I'm trying to make is that there are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of design decisions to be made in every game. It's ok for you not to agree with us on all of them. If you didn't agree with most of them then you wouldn't even be looking at teh game :) If one of our decisions does not tie up with what you think should have been done, then it's fine for you to disagree - "I think you should have done X". It's not the same thing to state that the game has lost all credability because of said design decision. 

I've already lost count of the number of times we have the "lost credability" line thrown at us, and each time for a completely different design decision :)


Perhaps your skin has just grown a little thin under the weight if those posts. [:D]

By the use of the phrase "lost credibility" I, of course, meant "with me", and not "in general". I speak only for myself.

In order not to be perceived as "Mr. Negative", I will offer some positive criticism.

I don't find Gary Grigsby's World at War particularly fun as it is scaled at too high a level to hold my interest. I have been waiting for someone to publish a strategic game of WWII at a level that will hold my interest and you appear to be on track to accomplish that. I will likely not boycott your peoduct over the minor consideration that the vehicle depictions tend towrd the, in my opinion, "absurdly cartoonish". I will simply wish that you had adopted a stricter doctrine with regard to the historical accuracy of your artwork. The nuances of historical accuracy always rise to the forefront with us grognard types. [:D]



IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 4:12:16 PM)

I know you guys are hard to please - if it wasn't this it would be because we used a 1942 model instead of the 1943 version which was much more numerous ;)

I just feel people focus too much on what is not there and less on what is. It's like the closer the game gets to being what you are looking for the more faults you find with it. I guess it's just human nature :)



Marc von Martial -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 4:51:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
By the use of the phrase "lost credibility" I, of course, meant "with me", and not "in general". I speak only for myself.


People, especially grogs, should be as picky with their wording as their are with game features they do not like, or as they are with historical nuances [;)]

I mean this in general, the tone towards game developers in wargame forums (not only here; and no I do not want to speak about mainstream game forums at all [:D]) leaves sometimes a lot to be desired. The phrase "lost credibility" easily translates to that developers are complete morons and do not know what they are doing.

As Iain pointed out developing a game is about gazillions of design decisions. In our particular case here a design decision forced upon the developer by a technical restriction. Do you really think that the developers did not know that the Panther has longer barrel then a PzKw III N [;)], that is what "lost credibility" implies to me.

As often, much ado about nothing [;)]. The game is so much fun you will not even notice it while playing.



Erik Rutins -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 5:00:48 PM)

Goodness, I have to agree this a lot of ado about a very minor thing. This is at a grand strategy scale, folks - while we all love our eye candy, that's all it is at this scale. The Panther's cropped barrel does not impact its performance on the battlefield or change the game stats of a German armored unit. In fact, I hadn't even noticed it despite quite a bit of play.

I think that while playing, you don't focus on these things, but when there's a screenshot on the forum to scrutinize details like this seem more important. The game itself is a lot of fun, keep in miind that it's nice that it does have upgradable unit graphics, so that you can see the armor evolve as your technology does. Don't over-focus on a minor art issue.

Regards,

- Erik



HansBolter -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 5:48:38 PM)

My I certainly have stirred up the pot!

Marc, I strongly believe skins have grown thin when you take a comment like "lost credibility" and interpret it to mean "I think the designer is an idiot", whgen in reality it means "I think the designer failed to follow through and get it right".

I truly hope the game will be fun to play and look forward to giving it a whirl.

Eric is probably spot on with the observation we are overfocusing on a tidbit and this tends to happen when we are given a tidbit...after all it IS all we have to focus on. [:D]

No hard feelings here and I apologize for my brusk manner that gave offense.



IainMcNeil -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 5:52:32 PM)

And the desire for information outpacing the supply is always at its height just before a game releases - when the developers are at thier most stressed and tired!

We're people too you know ...sob ...sob ;)



freeboy -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 6:01:12 PM)

are we looking at a release date soon, this week?



sabre100 -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 6:52:00 PM)

Matrix and Iain -

I for one am very exicted about this game and cant wait until it is released... nice work now just release it before Fathers Day [:D]



TheHellPatrol -> RE: Counters (6/13/2007 7:32:56 PM)

There was a time that i would have seen the Panther barrel graphic as blasphemy[X(]...and ran away in horror. As i get older (45) i am very stuck in my ways but having kids gives you a very open mind. I love eye candy AND i think hexes and chits are sexy...go figure...i think the Panther graphic is beautiful and the "stubby" barrel is done well IMHO. It does NOT look anything like a 37mm, which would be very skinny scaled proportionately but i digress[;)], but it does look feasible enough for ones imagination. I can't wait for this release, hopefully today because my credit card expires at midnight[:D], and look forward to playing my first game. Who says you can't have awesome graphics AND hexes in a wargame![:'(]



Zap -> RE: Counters (6/14/2007 10:17:58 AM)

Laryngoscope, you may be wrong there. I can imagine someone easily finding fault with your idea and complaining about it. Saying, "It should have been a side view of the turret, so I could see the barrel of ther gun".



Laryngoscope -> RE: Counters (6/14/2007 10:44:02 AM)

Zap, you can see the problem can't you? ... It is *exactly* the same problem as widescreen DVDs on a standard TV display.

Unbreakable axiom #1 "There is a display square of size X".

You want to display an image of different units to a relative size but their aspect ratio is not 1:1 (and all of them vary).

3 ways to do it, 2 are standard, one is thinking outside the box a little.

1. Scale the unit to fit, this means that units with long guns will look small (this idea was discounted)
2. Clip the unit (this is what was done - after a fashion)
3. (my idea above) Make the unit fit better into a 1:1 aspect without clipping or scaling (ie rotate the turret by some degree)

These are the only three solutions to the the problem. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. Personally, I think option 2 is the least aesthetically pleasing and option 3 the most. But as always YMMV.



Zap -> RE: Counters (6/16/2007 8:32:23 AM)

Yes, Larry, I see your point and it would be acceptable to me and a good way to do it. I don't have a problem with the developers choice, though. I was only suggesting that there would be someone who might complain about your solution because they would like to see the side view of the turret.



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