SU-152 = Broken (Full Version)

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Venger -> SU-152 = Broken (9/2/2000 10:02:00 PM)

That has to be it... Current campaign I'm thrashing more Ruskies in late 1945 (10/45). Pretty good fight, got stung here and there finding all his entrenched tank units (oh look, an IS-2 all dug in and such shooting at me!), when up pop on the ridge three Soviet SU-152's. Now the ridge is not where you want to be, as can be attested to by the burning hulks of T-24/85's and IS-2's that are scattered about. Nothing to do but open up yet another can of 90mm whoopass. Tink. Tink. Tink Tink. Tink. Tink Tink Tink. Tink. Tink. Tink. Tink Tink. Tink. Tink Tink. Think I'm exaggerating? Here's what I have trained on that hill: 6 - 90mm AA (great penetration and to hit at range, not extremely lethal on penetration though) 6 - 76mm AT with APCR rounds 10 - M4a3 (??) Sherman with the long 76mm and APCR 8 - M36 Jacksons with long 90mm and APCR I bounce SHELL after SHELL after SHELL off of these things. From a spread of 90 different degrees, some side, some front, from same height or slightly lower). Okay, this ticks me off, so I move in some additional guns from a few hexes away where I've just broken his main force, some Jumbo 76's and more M4a3's. Point blank range - 1 hex. Tink. Tink. Tink Tink. Tink Tink. Tink. Tink. Side shots, head on, same height. Nothing. Reports of at least 300mm armor, all the way to well over 900mm per shot. Nothing. Tink. Tink. I finally destroy everything external on the tanks, main gun, coaxial gun, suspension, water bottle, fuzzy dice, and two of the crews finally bail. I finally walk an engineer squad up to the SU-152 and put a flamethrower in the crews mouth. No more SU-152. Has ANYONE else seen such a thing? I've run into goofy angles and stuff before, and I was stricken with the short 75mm too long to be unfamiliar with Tink Tink, but this was so far beyond anything else I have encountered. Any explanation, is the unit int he OOB broken? Anyone else run into this? The unit's armor isn't all that spectacular, I've one shotted Tiger II's with the 90mm... Thanks for the feedback, I want some info on the expected pucker factor before I go into the next battle (meeting engagement), although I did just upgrade all of my armor to Perhing's (woohoo!!). Venger



Dave R -> (9/2/2000 10:50:00 PM)

I had something similer but to be honest, I felt my experience was quite realistic. In a North Africa battle, a British Gran wondered into an area wher I had half a dozen ATR's. A couple of turns earlier the ATR's had lost contact with their parent units and had decided to sit down and do nothing. Over the next three four turns I must have hit that grant with over 80 ATR rounds. Never once had a pen hit, but they destroyed the Grants suspension, optics, main gun, M/G'sIt ended up just sitting their a usless hulk, eventually the crew bailed out and where well hosed down with M/G fire. In that setting it felt about right to me. I think that perhaps as players we've got into the mind set that to kill a tank you have to hit it so hard that you need to see the turret go spinning high in the air as it blows up. It's easy to forget that you can do so much non peneterave damage to rendor the tank usless, which in my book is as good a kill as any. Sometimes, you just plane have to work at getting a kill one way or another.



Venger -> (9/2/2000 11:46:00 PM)

I've been there earlier in my campaign with my Lee (same as the Grant) shooting with their short 75's at Soviet tanks. But there it makes sense due to the utter lack of power in the 75 rounds. Here though, we have 90mm AP and APCR and 76mm AP and APCR, which littered the battlefield with IS2 hulks. There has to be something in there. I had to hit those tanks 40 times. Nothing should live through that with 90mm. Except maybe the USS Missouri. Venger



Paul Vebber -> (9/3/2000 12:28:00 AM)

First - how close were you? Against a unit on a hill, the extra penetration you get form moving to 1 or 2 hex range is more then wiped out by the angle increase to the front hull. Stay back 5 or 6 hexes and you won't be bouncing them off The SU-152 has a VERY sloped front Hull (70 degrees for the SU and 78 degrees for the ISU) that makes it almost impossible to penetrate when very close to it on a hill. This needs a little adjustment becasue the lower hull is much bigger and is 90 @30. THe limiations of teh "6 slab model" show on this one... The best solution to tanks on hilltops is teh same for AT guns on hilltops, some 155 will blind them, suppressthem and if you don't get lucky and kill them within 2 or 3 turns will make them run away. Otherwise you have to get close to square on its flank then it should be easy pickens ( provided you are not too close ie >3 hexes) [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 02, 2000).]



Venger -> (9/3/2000 10:53:00 PM)

I actually was hitting him from all angles. He was elevated, as were many of my guns. I was hitting him from EVERYWHERE. With the glorious release of 4.0 upon us, this is probably moot. And I just got done in a meeting engagement and popped his ISU-152's like a can of those bakery rolls in the tube that explode when you peel them... Thanks, Venger



Paul Vebber -> (9/3/2000 11:22:00 PM)

Thanks for teh report...we will continue to watch for these things - but sounds like one of those "weird" runs of luck...



gdpsnake -> (9/5/2000 8:28:00 PM)

Actually, I think it's a bug that has been reported in many postings. Sometimes as relates to terrain height, you are unable to get a result on an AFV - period. I've had the same problem with german and russian AFV's of medium/heavy tanks. I once shot T-34's over 50 times at close range with 88's Ap (tigers and flak) at 99% hit odds and all I could get was plink. I think the computer provides an advantage due to terrain that means your shells are esentially hitting the earth (can't kill it!) as oppossed to the AFV. The problem is that it seems to stick in that loop despite the position you hit it at (side, back, higher or lower elevation). Even if you move to manuever behind or above it, the advantage to the AFV remains. Eventually, either you shoot off the gun or it moves or the crew bails.



Paul Vebber -> (9/5/2000 8:43:00 PM)

There is a "slope anomoly" when you get within 3 hexes of something higher that has a very great front slope. Part is accurate. If you are shooting up at a target with 60 degree slope, from 20 degrees below - the 80 degree (+/- some) angle will make it invulnerable. IF it moves you might get lucky and hit the "bottom". The anomoly lies in the nature of the hex grid and hill "plateaus". The makes the angle "jump" causing some problems at close range. So the trick to taking hill top positions (assuming you can't stand off from a hill of your own) is to engage them from >3 hexes, or rush THROUGH them and get into the same hex, or an adjacent hex at the same level. The WORST thing you can do is stop one hex away and fire from a lower adjacent hex.



Kenny Goodman -> (9/7/2000 3:51:00 AM)

Paul I have to agree that the model used in the game isnt quite accurate. One of the things they teach you about armor is you NEVER go over a hill. In the game I know I'm invulnerable when crossing the crest of a hill unless its a flank shot and even then its most likely a tink. I know I've raised this issue before but isnt it possible to put a preference in the game that limits maximum factored armor thickness? With all the factors taken in I've had to punch holes in 42 feet of armor before. I was thinking that maybe a cap would work..say maybe 3-5 times the base ammount?



Paul Vebber -> (9/7/2000 4:16:00 AM)

That may be true today, (but I've also heard guidance to the contrary...depends what your up against) Kenny, but in WW2 it was SOP to try to get a hull down postion on high ground. Especially for Tigers and US Tank destroyers. Though once artillery came down, you'd usually have to move... The new game does a better job of representing low T/D ratios. So its getting there! THe best way to avoid teh problem is just stand off and engage units on hils from >3 hexes or with artillery. Improving "the black box" is the way we are going, not putting arbitrary caps on the output... The new game also dramatically increased hit probabilities so engagement ranges should lengthen especially late in the war. The "charge at teh enemy becasue he can't hit worth stink" will not work very well. We have also added better differentiation between turreted, turreted with less then optimum crew configuration, Assault guns, and SP guns. The new "targeting" characteristic assmes that more "short halts" for fire are taken and reduces the penalties for shooting and moving the better you targeting rating is. The base accuracy of all guns was reevaluated, and increased significantly. The overall effect is that in situations where move and the enemy moves, there is a much better chance of a hit.



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