Start Lines in Scandinavia (Full Version)

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Froonp -> Start Lines in Scandinavia (6/16/2007 10:15:11 AM)

As the map for Scandinavia was nearly all redone, the starting lines had to be redone as well.
Based on history maps, and on the WiF FE Scandinavia Minimap, here is what I implemented as start lines in Scandinavia for 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944.
I'd like to have comments and correction to these if they are not correct.
Here are the start lines for 1941 :

[image]local://upfiles/10447/BE5721E5D3A54B13829A21180EDB7874.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (6/16/2007 10:17:33 AM)

Note : The yellow line marks the place south of where the WiF FE European map begins. In this area, the start lines are established by the WiF FE European maps, who are at the same scale than the MWiF one (so they aren't subject to modification).
Here are the start lines for 1942 :

[image]local://upfiles/10447/BF0145A3A1B448388EE7CBB1E00174B9.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (6/16/2007 10:19:28 AM)

Indeed, the start lines for 1941-1944 are the same in Scandinavia, but I made 4 maps in case there are modifications to be done.
Here are the start lines for 1943 :

[image]local://upfiles/10447/413F4A39657245F3A025ECCAFC4B1905.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (6/16/2007 10:21:13 AM)

Here are the start lines for 1944 :

[image]local://upfiles/10447/9131ED1A74EE4818A34CF79F23E61A72.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (6/16/2007 11:06:58 AM)

As a note, here are the starting dates of the MWiF / WiF FE scenarios :
Fascist Tide : S/O 39 (Europe)
Global War : S/O 39
Missed the Bus : J/A 40
Barbarossa : M/J 41 (Part of Europe, 5 Turns)
Lebensraum : S/O 41
Day of Infamy : N/D 41 (Pacific)
Waking Giant : N/D 41
Guadalcanal : M/J 42 (Pacific, 5 turns)
Brute Force : M/J 42
Darkness Before Dawn : J/A 43
Decline and Fall : M/J 44



bj_rohde -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/7/2007 9:47:02 PM)

One question: In all these, there's one hex in Finnish/German control that can effectively cut the Murmansk railroad with a ZOC, should that be possible from the setup of these scenarios?

Bjarne



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/7/2007 10:48:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bj_rohde

One question: In all these, there's one hex in Finnish/German control that can effectively cut the Murmansk railroad with a ZOC, should that be possible from the setup of these scenarios?

Bjarne

I think it is ok. If the Finns are using a ski division it won't have a ZOC. And if they have a corps sized unit there, the USSR can counter with their own unit in the railway hex - that lets supply get through though it would stop unit and resource rail movement.

I believe this makes taking and holding the Finnish borderlands more important (the hex you are talking about is a Finnish Borderland hex). Typically in WIF, the USSR doesn't see any point in DOW Finland in 1939 (as done historically). Perhaps this will provide a little more incentive.



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/7/2007 11:12:53 PM)

I wonder about the 1943 starting lines. The history books say the siege of Leningrad was lifted January
27 1944. The starting lines are from July/August 1943. So why is the hex 1xSE in Soviet hands. This hex
restablishes supply to Leningrad. Shouldn't this hex still be German in the 1943 scenario?

Look here for more details about when then siege of Leningrad was broken:
http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/ww2/section12.rhtml



mldtchdog -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 9:23:50 AM)

quote:

I wonder about the 1943 starting lines. The history books say the siege of Leningrad was lifted January
27 1944. The starting lines are from July/August 1943. So why is the hex 1xSE in Soviet hands. This hex
restablishes supply to Leningrad. Shouldn't this hex still be German in the 1943 scenario?

Look here for more details about when then siege of Leningrad was broken:
http://www.sparknotes.com/history/european/ww2/section12.rhtml


January 12, 1943: Red Army launches operation Iskra to push German 18th army out of the Schlusselberg-Mga salient. The 67th army attacks from the city and the 2nd shock attacks from the Volkhov river.
January 18, 1943: Schlusselberg is recaptured by Soviets opening up a narrow corridor to Leningrad.
January 29, 1943: Fighting dies down around Leningrad.
July 22, 1943: Red Army launches the Mga Offensive with the 8th and 67th armies (253,000 troops) to secure the precarious link with Leningrad.
August 23, 1943: Mga offensive called off. Little gain for high cost. 20,890 killed, 59,047 wounded (soviet)
January 14, 1944: Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts launch offensive to free Leningrad
January 17, 1944: German 16th and 18th armies are being mauled
January 19, 1944: Soviet 2nd shock and 42nd armies link up at Ropsha signalling end of siege.
January 29, 1944: Kuchler orders retreat of his army group to the River Luga to save it.

From "The Eastern Front: Day by Day, 1941-45"

So there was a land supply line established with Leningrad in 1943. How wide it was I'm not sure but I think the start line as represented is reasonably accurate



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 9:28:15 AM)

Moreover, these are the start lines of the WiF FE game, so changing them was outside of my thoughts. Thanks mldtchdog for the historical justification [:D].



Greyshaft -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 1:51:12 PM)

In the 42, 43 and 44 scenarios isn't the border line to the northwest of the 'E' in Estonia is redundant???



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 3:10:52 PM)

Schlusselburg is on the lake Ladoga and Soviet capture of this city made it easier to get supplies across lake Ladoga to Leningrad. During the Winter lake Ladoga was frozen so supplies could be transported from the eastern bank of lake Ladoga to Schlusselburg and further into Leningrad.

But Mga lies south east of Leningrad and the offensive to capture this city (thus regaining rail supply to Leningrad) started in July 1943 and called off August 1943 with little gains. So the Soviets failed to reopen rail supply to Leningrad until January 1944.

January 1944 is seen by the Russians as the time Leningrad was liberated, not January 1943 (when sending somesome supply from the other side of Ladoga to Schlussenburg became possible).

If you look at the WIFFE map you see the hex SE of Leningrad is a rail hex so Soviet control of this hex means you have rail supply to
Leningrad. And this didn't happen until January 1944. But it's maybe not a big deal to change the starting lines where they are for the 1943 scenario. These starting lines are printed on the WIFFE map and people are used to them.

The important question is this. Will the MWIF situation for Leningrad (supply, production, unit strength etc.) change by Russian control of the hex SE of Leningrad?



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 3:13:48 PM)

Doesn't this line show that Hanko is controlled by the Finnish player in these scenarios. If you don't draw this line you may think Hanko is still Soviet controlled.



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 3:17:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Doesn't this line show that Hanko is controlled by the Finnish player in these scenarios. If you don't draw this line you may think Hanko is still Soviet controlled.

Anyway, there are no lines in MWiF. Those lines were just for the picture for better see the areas.



composer99 -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 6:34:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

Schlusselburg is on the lake Ladoga and Soviet capture of this city made it easier to get supplies across lake Ladoga to Leningrad. During the Winter lake Ladoga was frozen so supplies could be transported from the eastern bank of lake Ladoga to Schlusselburg and further into Leningrad.

But Mga lies south east of Leningrad and the offensive to capture this city (thus regaining rail supply to Leningrad) started in July 1943 and called off August 1943 with little gains. So the Soviets failed to reopen rail supply to Leningrad until January 1944.

January 1944 is seen by the Russians as the time Leningrad was liberated, not January 1943 (when sending somesome supply from the other side of Ladoga to Schlussenburg became possible).

If you look at the WIFFE map you see the hex SE of Leningrad is a rail hex so Soviet control of this hex means you have rail supply to
Leningrad. And this didn't happen until January 1944. But it's maybe not a big deal to change the starting lines where they are for the 1943 scenario. These starting lines are printed on the WIFFE map and people are used to them.

The important question is this. Will the MWIF situation for Leningrad (supply, production, unit strength etc.) change by Russian control of the hex SE of Leningrad?



Leningrad is a USSR home country city (ergo, primary supply source). In any given turn, USSR units occupying it, provided the USSR has owned it since the previous turn, are always in supply and hence always at maximum unit strength (doubled because of the swamp).

The only thing that might be affected is provision of resources to Leningrad for production - but a German/Axis ZOC on the rail line in question would prevent resources from getting through.



composer99 -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 10:23:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

As a note, here are the starting dates of the MWiF / WiF FE scenarios :
Fascist Tide : S/O 39 (Europe)
Global War : S/O 39
Missed the Bus : J/A 40
Barbarossa : M/J 41 (Part of Europe, 5 Turns)
Lebensraum : S/O 41
Day of Infamy : N/D 41 (Pacific)
Waking Giant : N/D 41
Guadalcanal : M/J 42 (Pacific, 5 turns)
Brute Force : M/J 42
Darkness Before Dawn : J/A 43
Decline and Fall : M/J 44



Just thought I'd mention here that Lebensraum should start in M/J 41, and the 1941 start line mentioned in this topic applies (obviously, I suppose) only to the Waking Giant scenario.



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 10:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
Leningrad is a USSR home country city (ergo, primary supply source). In any given turn, USSR units occupying it, provided the USSR has owned it since the previous turn, are always in supply and hence always at maximum unit strength (doubled because of the swamp).

The only thing that might be affected is provision of resources to Leningrad for production - but a German/Axis ZOC on the rail line in question would prevent resources from getting through.


Then there is no need to alter the printed 43 starting line. [:)]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 11:19:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
As a note, here are the starting dates of the MWiF / WiF FE scenarios :
Fascist Tide : S/O 39 (Europe)
Global War : S/O 39
Missed the Bus : J/A 40
Barbarossa : M/J 41 (Part of Europe, 5 Turns)
Lebensraum : S/O 41
Day of Infamy : N/D 41 (Pacific)
Waking Giant : N/D 41
Guadalcanal : M/J 42 (Pacific, 5 turns)
Brute Force : M/J 42
Darkness Before Dawn : J/A 43
Decline and Fall : M/J 44


Just thought I'd mention here that Lebensraum should start in M/J 41, and the 1941 start line mentioned in this topic applies (obviously, I suppose) only to the Waking Giant scenario.

Off the top of my head I do not remember how I handled this, only that I did.

The program knows the start lines for Barbarossa based on country boundaries, including the partition of Poland. Therefore the special file on Start Lines (i.e., Controlled Hexes) is not used. Barbarossa is limited to just Eastern Europe & Russia so the details elsewhere in the world are irrelevant.

I am not sure about the differences between the S/O 1941 and the N/D 1941 start lines. Are there any?



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/8/2007 11:50:53 PM)

quote:

am not sure about the differences between the S/O 1941 and the N/D 1941 start lines. Are there any?

In the board game, there is none, at least none on the map. There is only a 1941 start line.



composer99 -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/9/2007 12:26:42 AM)

Yes, but Lebensraum doesn't start in S/O 1941 - it starts in M/J. There is no scenario in WiF:FE, to my knowledge, that starts in S/O 1941.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/9/2007 12:46:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Yes, but Lebensraum doesn't start in S/O 1941 - it starts in M/J. There is no scenario in WiF:FE, to my knowledge, that starts in S/O 1941.

Ah, that answers my open question. Lebensraum is the same as Barbarossa for determining start lines in Europe (see my post above). For the rest of the map the 1941 startlines are used.



Neilster -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (8/9/2007 2:58:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Yes, but Lebensraum doesn't start in S/O 1941 - it starts in M/J. There is no scenario in WiF:FE, to my knowledge, that starts in S/O 1941.

Yeah, I noticed that ages ago and was going to post but I assumed something must have changed and didn't want to look like a dumbass.

There should be a difference between S/O and N/D start lines. Lets assume that S/O means the beginning of October on average and N/D means the beginning of December. From memory Operation Typhoon was launched on Oct 2 and finally petered out on Dec 4. In that time, Army Group Centre advanced from just east of Smolensk to the gates of Moscow, including 2 huge encirclements near Vyazma and Bryansk. That's a considerable distance.

Cheers, Neilster



Update -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 3:07:47 PM)

Greetings!

I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]

Pertti



Froonp -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 3:21:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Greetings!

I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]

Pertti

Pertii, would you be as kind as editing the bitmaps that show the start lines (that are posted here), and draw on them (even if it crude drawing, we don't care) the start lines that you think would be more appropriate / historical ? I won't swear that we would modify the start lines or not, but I suppose that if your proposals are both more historical, and no game breakers, we would apply them.

Obviously, all the people here will give their opinion about your proposals too.

Edit : You can even propose 1940 start lines if you want.



JagdFlanker -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 3:31:34 PM)

looking at the 1941 start lines they are identical to the 1942 ones and i'd say at best they would represent dec 31 1941, not june 22 1941 since it would seem that the germans have already surrounded leningrad



Update -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 3:38:45 PM)

I see what I can do during the next couple of days.
By the way, how´s Finnish forces coming along otherwise? Being Finn, I might have a little bit better access to documents and info than some others. So, if you need any facts checked up etc. feel free to bother me. [:D]

Gotta go.

Pertti




jesperpehrson -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 5:27:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

I see what I can do during the next couple of days.
By the way, how´s Finnish forces coming along otherwise? Being Finn, I might have a little bit better access to documents and info than some others. So, if you need any facts checked up etc. feel free to bother me. [:D]

Gotta go.

Pertti




PM coming your way.



Neilster -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 7:00:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Greetings!

I just registered for the forums due to finding out about this project.
I am sorry if I´m late at this discussion but the starting lines for Finland in 1941 looks really weird, if I´m understanding it correctly (the thick red line, right?).
In June 1941 Finnish troops were not in the possession of Hanko peninsula, Viipuri (Why the russian name Vyborg?) nor did they possess any of the East-Karelia (Itä-Karjala) or the hexes around Laatokka (Lake Ladoka). They all had been lost during the Winter War peace settlement in 1940. Exception was the most eastern area around Lake Onega (Ääninen) which were never part of Finland but were occupied in 1941 to 1942 due to the favorable defensive lines for Finns.
The loss of these areas was part of the reason for the Continuation War (Jatkosota) of 1941-1944.
Anyway, I don't know what the historical accuracy should be with this game, so.....[&:]

Pertti

Pertii, would you be as kind as editing the bitmaps that show the start lines (that are posted here), and draw on them (even if it crude drawing, we don't care) the start lines that you think would be more appropriate / historical ? I won't swear that we would modify the start lines or not, but I suppose that if your proposals are both more historical, and no game breakers, we would apply them.

Obviously, all the people here will give their opinion about your proposals too.

Edit : You can even propose 1940 start lines if you want.

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster



wosung -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 9:02:36 PM)



quote:

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster


If "correct start-lines are pretty important", maybe some false start lines in China also should be changed? (Lanchou and Sian should be controlled by Nationalist Chinese).

I know it's the wrong thread. But, well [:)]

Regards



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia (10/8/2007 10:02:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

quote:

IMHO we should get fundamental stuff like this sorted out. Correct start-lines are pretty important.

Cheers, Neilster


If "correct start-lines are pretty important", maybe some false start lines in China also should be changed? (Lanchou and Sian should be controlled by Nationalist Chinese).

I know it's the wrong thread. But, well [:)]

Regards


WIF permits the Communist Chinese a lot of latitude when setting up. They are 'given' two cities as sources of supply; in MWIF that is increased because of the additional cities added to China. So these are the cities the Communist Chinese start out in possession of:

Map.HexControl[LanChow.X, LanChow.Y] := CommunistChina; // 74, 131
Map.HexControl[Sian.X, Sian.Y] := CommunistChina; // 76, 137
Map.HexControl[Yennan.X, Yennan.Y] := CommunistChina; // 73, 137
Map.HexControl[Sining.X, Sining.Y] := CommunistChina; // 73, 128
Map.HexControl[Tianshui.X, Tianshui.Y] := CommunistChina; // 75, 133
Map.HexControl[Ningsia.X, Ningsia.Y] := CommunistChina; // 70, 134
Map.HexControl[Tungkwan.X, Tungkwan.Y] := CommunistChina; // 76, 139

Tha Nationalists set up first and can occupy any hex controlled by the Chinese except the Commnist cities.
The Communists set up second and can occupy any hex controlled by the Chinese except Nationalist cities (and the hex may not be occupied by a Nationalist unit).

This is a very free-wheeling setup for the units, and is in keeping with the freedom given other major powers during setup. Note that the location of the Communist cities limits their supply and therefore dictates them setting up in the north. The Nationalists are constrained likewise, but to a lesser degree.

If we change Lanchow and Sian to Nationalist control it will: (1) go directly against WIF FE rules, and (2) have a major effect on both Communist and Nationalist supply.



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