RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (Full Version)

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oldtimer -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/5/2007 6:57:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: malcolm_mccallum

Am I misremembering this game? When I walk forward with my one super stack and attack a moderate sized stack, am I not also forced to engage all adjacent stacks as they rush to join the battle?




No adjacent stacks do not HAVE to join the battle you ay have them "attempt" to join the battle (die role vs the tactical rating of the stack trying to join). If they join they come in at the morale level of the stack already involved in the battle (so if the Guard were adjacent and then joined the battle it has no impact on the morale).



Monadman -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/5/2007 8:26:12 PM)

oldtimer wrote:
I use to run a PBEM version of this game. . . . I just don't want a game that is focused on making everything balanced and realistic, but rather sticks as close as possible to the EiA rules and lets the real game of diplomacy come forth.

That pretty much summarizes what moved me to get involved with this project.

Anyway . . .

EiANW efficiently uses the “standing orders” format, that many old paper pushing email gamers would be familiar with, to drive its PBEM games and then takes it a large step further by adding a ‘pre-action reaction” format. If you’re real big on thinking and planning then this format will keep you motivated in working out the possibilities beforehand while at the same time preventing a PBEM game from getting bogged down waiting for individual responses (as can happen with The Call To Allies Step).

Btw, I’m not sure what can be done about the 15-counter stack limitation (which I’m not for either) but I will add this; most of the deviations (workarounds) found in EiANW were done due to programming restraints. There were countless times that Marshall said it could not be done only to change his thinking after engaging in discussion concerning how it could be addressed. In most cases the problem was either fixed in accordance with EiA or EiH rules, but in some incidences the time needed to properly address the issue would deeply tax his resources (which was limited due to other priorities) so the issue was either dropped or placed on the backburner. From what I’ve been told, there was once a stack limitation of “10” per area section when the project began but the beta testers back then wanted more and so the restriction was lifted to 15.

Richard



oldtimer -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 6:29:38 AM)

Monadman,

First I am in 100% agreement as to what attracted me to EiA in the first place. If I had the time (and it is to late in the project now) I would have loved to beta test this product.

If the program can be changed from 10 to 15 then it sounds like it is just an array (okay maybe more then that), but it does tell me that it can increase. If that is so, then wouldn't it be possible to say look at Russia (21 Corp, 3 Fleets, 6 Cossacks, +1 Depot) for a maximum of 31 counters in a single space, make it 33 to account for troops stacked on a depot and the garrison. I believe that is the MOST corp any one major power can put in a single stack. If you are using an array of some sort I don't see what the limitation is. On the screen itself you don't need to show all the corp there, perhaps a symbol on the corp indicating more then one present or something. Just a thought I would also consider this a future enhancement since I wouldn't want something like this to delay the release of the game.

My biggest concern as far as the game play is the double move both France and England have. That is a huge diplomatic stick for the French on land and the English at sea. Nothing like a diplomatic deal going south between the French and another land based power and then that power who thought their troops were safe suddenly finds the French that were once far away attacking them with Napoleon and Murat.

The game aspect does play an important role for the diplomatic side of things. I remember once playing the French and convincing everyone how bad the Russians were and somehow conviced Austria and Prussia to go after Russia to stop his aggressive stance. Meahwhile I took 95% of the minor countries between my self and my neighbors. To this day I still wonder how I did that. It didn't hurt that the Russia player was a little arrogant.



iamspamus -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 11:47:31 AM)

Hey Oldtimer,

We have done this and also the even stiffer penalty of 4 corps per depot chain. This made you pay for your gd, art, maybe cav corps and forage the rest. Obviously not a big deal in friendly territory, since you could have a new "chain" per city, but try advancing into enemy territory! We always liked this addition to the rules.

Jason
quote:

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

La Provence the rules do have logistical penalties for large stacks.

1 - We always played with the optional rule that a depot could only supply 4 corp.




iamspamus -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 11:53:43 AM)

MM,

In the board game, the adjacent stacks could attempt to reinforce. The number was anywhere from a 1 -intrinsic corps strategic modifier and some generals to a 5 for Nap and Welly. This was modified, I think, by chit picks and maybe stack size. It's been a while. Not sure how this will work with a stack size limit.

I think that EiA is at a scale that the spread out coprs moving parallel along separate roads is simulated within a space. If it was hex based, like La Grande Guerre, then the stacks would be significantly smaller and ther would bem omre hitting of smaller units with reinforcements being more important. Smaller scale. Not necessarily better.

Hope that this helps and is correct [:D]. (It is as I remember it.)

Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: malcolm_mccallum

Am I misremembering this game? When I walk forward with my one super stack and attack a moderate sized stack, am I not also forced to engage all adjacent stacks as they rush to join the battle?

One stack can be bypassed. Supporting wings of an army was better in that it gave more flexibility, breadth, and security. It also didn't leave all your eggs in one basket and was easier on foraging. Multiple moderate stacks on the attck could better influence retreat directions.






Monadman -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 2:35:20 PM)

<oldtimer > wrote:
Just a thought I would also consider this a future enhancement since I wouldn't want something like this to delay the release of the game.

Yes, the problem is manpower hours to code it in so it is considered an enhancement – at the moment. J

Richard



qgaliana -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 5:51:18 PM)

I can see a 15 counter limit as being a pain in the ass. I remember 12 corps concentrating for battle fairly often - it was a typical lineup in Germany. Given they may come in from several areas with their own leaders you can quickly run over the limit.

And it sounds like it may kill reinforcement - which was a nice way to avoid some of the overstacking costs.

Definitely will alter how many people play, but I'm guessing it's a display problem, not a storage problem. Would it be fair to assume there are difficulties conveying more than 15 counters on the screen?



Monadman -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 6:49:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: oldtimer

If that is so, then wouldn't it be possible to say look at Russia (21 Corp, 3 Fleets, 6 Cossacks, +1 Depot) for a maximum of 31 counters in a single space, make it 33 to account for troops stacked on a depot and the garrison.


We’re talking about doing just that (lifting the stack limitation to 30 per area section). Essentially adding a second page to the Selected Unit Info box. There will need to be other adjustments (such as the battle screen) but when completed, this should give the alliances a chance against France. Btw, your example included fleets; a fleet in port does not count towards the land stack limitation in the city or city area.

Richard




La Provence -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/6/2007 7:08:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter

7.4.2.1.1.1 Limited Supply per Depot (OPTIONAL)
A depot may supply a maximum of four Corps .




Sorry, I have not this optionnal rule in my (old) Game Rules ! [&:]
I supose that I'm behind about some other updated points [:@]



timewalker03 -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/8/2007 7:56:22 PM)

mine also does not have the 4 corps supply limit. Here is what My rules has for corps supply:

7.4.2 REGULAR (DEPOT) SUPPLY: After the movement and foraging of corps is complete, any corps which did not forage must now pay for supply. Depot supply, while costing money prevents army factors being lost. Paying for depot supply is as follows:
7.4.2.1 PAYING FOR DEPOT SUPPLY: Any corps in a depot area or which can trace an unblocked route to a depot may use depot supply. Besieged port city garrisons (regardless of size) may also use depot supply (see 7.4.3 and 7.4.4). The costs for all corps and separate garrisons are summed and any fraction rounded up, that amount then being deducted from that major power's current monetary total. A major power may not use depot supply for a corps if it doesn't have enough money to pay the cost and such corps must instead forage for supply.
7.4.2.1.1 Corps Depot Supply: A corps in the same area as a depot being part of a valid supply chain costs half a money point to supply. Other corps up to 3 unblocked areas away from a depot pay the number of areas they are away from a depot in a valid supply chain in money points. For example, a corps 3 areas away pays 3 money points to get supply. The route through intervening areas traced from a corps to a depot may not be blocked by forces (same rules as for blocking a supply chain (see 7.2.3.2.1).
7.4.2.1.2 Besieged Port Garrison Depot Supply: Besieged port city garrisons using sea supply through a depot in the port city cost half a money point per garrison to supply. Besieged port city garrisons using invasion supply cost one money point per garrison to supply as they are in an adjacent area.
7.4.2.1.3 Winter Depot Supply Cost Increases: All costs are doubled in winter for corps or garrisons within the winter zone (see 9.0).


There is more, but this addresses the issue. Mine is a scanned copy in word format so it is an exact replica of the rulebook and not a typed in version



yammahoper -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/9/2007 11:14:35 PM)

look under optional rules for the depot limitations (and many others).

yamma



La Provence -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/10/2007 4:57:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yammahoper@yahoo.com

look under optional rules for the depot limitations (and many others).



Where ?????
Is it possible to have a copy (or a file ?) of the totality of the optional rules ?
....perhaps a site with ?



Montbrun -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/10/2007 5:07:01 PM)

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/eih/files/



Monadman -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/11/2007 1:34:28 AM)

Update:

EiANW will now have a 30-counter per area section stack limitation (lifted from the previously mentioned 15-counter limitation).

Meanwhile, a restriction that limits the number of corps that can draw from a single depot will not be implemented due to the way that the supply function was originally coded.

Richard



j-s -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/15/2007 10:32:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monadman

Update:

EiANW will now have a 30-counter per area section stack limitation (lifted from the previously mentioned 15-counter limitation).


Good!
That will help much but why to do that limit at all?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Monadman
Meanwhile, a restriction that limits the number of corps that can draw from a single depot will not be implemented due to the way that the supply function was originally coded.

Too bad.
That's one of the best optional rules in original game. If there is not that limit (4 corps/depot), it will make game a much easier. This can be added as an optional in update when it comes out, please?



j-s -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/21/2007 7:06:35 PM)

We have had a face-to-face game going on in last few weeks. Every week there has been stacks about 18 corps + leaders (usually Charles).

I was wondering how big advantage this original idea of stacking limit is to France, becouse biggest stack that I had (I play France) was 14 corps, 1 debot and 5 leaders. In that time, Germans had a stack of 20 corps+leaders and I won that fight. France had 233 factors present and germans had 233 factors.

So please, no stacking limits.
(ok, that 30 would be better, but I still don't see a reason why to do this)



oldtimer -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/22/2007 6:04:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: j-s

We have had a face-to-face game going on in last few weeks. Every week there has been stacks about 18 corps + leaders (usually Charles).

I was wondering how big advantage this original idea of stacking limit is to France, becouse biggest stack that I had (I play France) was 14 corps, 1 debot and 5 leaders. In that time, Germans had a stack of 20 corps+leaders and I won that fight. France had 233 factors present and germans had 233 factors.

So please, no stacking limits.
(ok, that 30 would be better, but I still don't see a reason why to do this)



Your own example answers your question. France wouldn't be able to have all that they did in the stack. You have 20 items stacked (5 ldrs, 1 depot, 14 corp) what 5 items wil you remove from your stack.

As for the coalition you said 20 corp + leaders what 5+ items are they to remove from their stack? Now there is no way for the coalition to have equal numbers or superior numbers so the coalition strategy of attrition pretty much goes out the door.

This is now a mute point since they raised it to 30 items in a stack as I have never seen that much in a stack ever.

Now on to Monadman's reply concerning the stacking being raised to 30 (thanks). As to unlimited depot supply while that is in line with the original rules I thank a future optional rule to change that to 4 corp per depot may need to be seriously looked at. That is one optional rule I have NEVER seen left out of a game. So I guess in truth I do not know how the boardgame would play without that rule. I thank it favors the French more because of their superior movement and without it it gives a BIG advantage to the coalition forces because it make HUGE stacks and supply lines MUCH easier.

I mean in winter 20 corp and 1 depot costs you $20 to supply. This makes winter combat very practical. With the optional rule you may be shelling out $20 to feed 12 corp and foraging with 8 corp. For a very costly loss of troops. Makes winter combat very expensive.

This changes strategy greatly because now winter can't be as readily used to spread corp, cut costs, and get a break from battle. This allows coalition forces to continually attack with the greater amount of income generated by the coalition forces. Spain and Turkey are typically a drain on the French Empire, whereas only Prussia is really the drain on the coalition forces. They will ave more money to operate with and force France to possibly forage more in winter due to lack of funds. This can actually balance the game greatly in favor of the coalition forces in forcing France to surrender unconditionally as their army can't survive through winter and the French can't recruit troops to save money.

Just a quick a dirty thought on a coalition strategy plan.



oldtimer -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/22/2007 8:05:40 PM)

Geesh I just realized I contradict my own statement about the depot supply. In one case I say it favors the French (unlimited supply) then I turn around and give a strategy on how it favors the coalition.

That's what happens when you just sit down and type to fast.

I'll try to explain things a little clearer here:

PROS
1) Cheaper to launch campaigns
2) Really reduces need to forage

CONS
1) Enhances desire for "Monster Stacks" which everyone says they hate (makes them affordable)
2) Increases coalition ability to launch "Winter Campaigns" since they have far more money combined then the French and thus the French will have limited ability to rebuild over the Winter. They will need to greatly increase there reserve money to cover expenses over a winter campaign
3) Reduces need to forage. Yes this is also a con because it removes the decision of do I really want to move this many corp because I might lose 'X' number of troops due to poor forage rolls.

In the long run I think the unlimited supply from a depot favors the coalition forces simply because of the money. It makes "monster stacks" a much more common ideal simply because the coalition can really attrition the French player to death. Now if the French can really do a number in diplomacy they may be able to offset this, but they better spout sugar when they talk.



Russian Guard -> RE: Stacking in Computer EiA (7/24/2007 1:02:52 AM)


While I find it interesting that this thread I started has led to a change in design (courtesy of all of the great input in the thread), I must say that I'm somewhat dismayed at the outcome [X(]

While I did find the limited stacking to significantly favor the French, the rules as now stated will greatly enable monster-stacks - exactly what I was hoping the game would discourage...

Ahh well...I'll buy this game anyway [:D]







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