Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (Full Version)

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stall84 -> Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 9:15:14 PM)

Hey all...

Ive noticed difficulty in getting escort fighters to fly escort when the bombers are launched from a different airbase.
The only workaround Ive been able to come up with is to order the fighters to sweep before the bombers go in...

A classic example: P-51's based on Iwo Jima escorting B-29's from Saipan...

In my experience.. the P-51's will never escort the bombers... its as if they cant do it unless both flights (escort and bomber) launch from the same airbase..

Is there a way to solve this problem?
Is the fighter sweep the only method available?

Thanks



Mynok -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 9:56:38 PM)


Sweep is the most reliable way to get your fighters over the target. But your bombers still will fly "unescorted", which means there will be a cap check and they might not fly at all.

Having an air HQ with both bases in range helps with getting escorts to happen in the manner you desire.



stall84 -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 9:58:33 PM)

mmmkkk    So it is 'possible' with the right parameters met (HQ, supply, weather, etc) to have escorts fly from a different base than the bombers?
Just by setting the escort target to the same target as the bombers have been assigned I assume?





Mynok -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:00:19 PM)


It's always just a chance, not a guarantee. Setting escort targets only limits where they will escort strikes. It doesn't help them pass the check to escort.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:13:48 PM)

I had never really figured ou the coordinated attack thing, but now that Mynok mentions it, yes I see much better attack coordination in places where I have air HQs (India and NE Austrailia). I think the chances of a coordianted strike are still there without the Air HQs but it is much lower. The other thing you need are plenty of fighters.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:14:39 PM)

It seems to me that setting the target as the same base is mandatory to have a check to see if fighters will escort bombers from another base.

You will have more probability to send fighters over the target by ordering a sweep, and your fighters will also behave better during a sweep than during escort duties (due to the way WITP is programmed)



Nikademus -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:18:02 PM)

the less one sees of this coord the better.



Feinder -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:44:17 PM)

I'm fairly sure that the bases have to be the same number of hexes from the target.  Essentially, it's triggering a coordination roll on bases that are equidistant, to paricipate in the strike.  In which case, you're picking up fighters, sometimes maybe extra bombers.  But if you're not equidistant, no roll, no coordination, no extra fighters or bombers.

-F-



Nikademus -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:46:38 PM)

they don't. I've seen coordinated escorts from Lae and Rabaul. (bombers based at Rabaul)




niceguy2005 -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/20/2007 10:57:18 PM)

but I take it you are NOT a fan of this. Can I ask why?

I see it fairly often from my bases in Northern India, but we are talking very short distances of 2 or 3 hexes. I occassionally will get coordinated strikes from Cooktown and Townville on PM.



stldiver -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 5:02:27 AM)

I think Nikademus stated it correctly, the less we see the better.
As an allied only player most of my operations are never coridinated unless same base.

As for my opponent, I tried a failed invasion of Java in late 43, and over 1500 planes flew from Java bases in cordinated flights over Tiligjatp (sorry spelling but you know where). Then again about 6 months later in southern PI, then northern PI raids, all strikes uncordinated, so I believe HQ's play a part, and there is unpredicitablilty as in life as in both cases bases where close together.



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 12:30:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I'm fairly sure that the bases have to be the same number of hexes from the target.  Essentially, it's triggering a coordination roll on bases that are equidistant, to paricipate in the strike.  In which case, you're picking up fighters, sometimes maybe extra bombers.  But if you're not equidistant, no roll, no coordination, no extra fighters or bombers.

-F-


If base are at the same range, there is no dice roll, they will attack the same target together as the same raid. I saw that daily over Burma.

It is possible that fighters closer from the target than bombers escort them.



Nikademus -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 5:20:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

but I take it you are NOT a fan of this. Can I ask why?



because it tends to accelerate air operational pace via bloodiness. the "Sweep" mission is another problem child. Like this example, too absolute (when it triggers in the case of multi-base coord) and unavoidable by the defending CAP which will get worn down.





niceguy2005 -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 6:24:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

but I take it you are NOT a fan of this. Can I ask why?



because it tends to accelerate air operational pace via bloodiness. the "Sweep" mission is another problem child. Like this example, too absolute (when it triggers in the case of multi-base coord) and unavoidable by the defending CAP which will get worn down.




I can see that being an issue, but isn't it sort of the nature of a game that things become absolute, even with a game as complex as this?

I have several complaints about the absolute predictability of certain player moves (like bombardment missions starting outside LBA range). I'm now sort of learning to live with it.



anarchyintheuk -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 6:35:25 PM)

I'd rather see the bloodiness restricted or tempo of the ops slowed than remove the historical reality that was p51s from Iwo Jima escorting b29s from the marianas. One of the earlier versions of UV that had higher damage rates seemed pretty accurate. Where is Ron anyway?


PC Disclaimer: No offense was intended to any former resident or a descendent thereof or any person living or dead whomever, at any time, contemplated residing on the island of Iwo To.



Knavey -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 7:08:29 PM)

Bloodiness comments aside, this was a historical method of doing things.  Bombers and escorts coming from different airfields happened all the time. 

I am reading Bloody Shambles right now, and many times they reference this sort of behavior.  Unfotunately for the Brits, many times they also reference the fact that they strike ended up not being coordinated and the bombers flew on unescorted to the detriment of thier health and well being.  Even the Japs did it...they just did it better in the beginning of the war.



rtrapasso -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 7:24:57 PM)

quote:

Where is Ron anyway?


in Greece, isn't he??

Has anyone heard from him since his move date??



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 7:46:52 PM)

I agree with Knavey it was done by all sides in many occasions. The problem with bloodiness is not the fact that escort or sweep may combine with bombers coming from other bases, it is that 1) too many aircraft fly each day and 2) a given fighter is able to engage far too much enemy aircraft in the same action.




Nikademus -> RE: Escorts launched from different Airbase.. (6/21/2007 7:59:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I can see that being an issue, but isn't it sort of the nature of a game that things become absolute, even with a game as complex as this?


not necessarily. Its more to do with the sequencing which is actually a simplification. Complicated was BTR which tracked all the aircraft in RT by map position. Thats why you could assign lots of escorts, attempt coord from multiple launch points and still possibly end up with only part of the escort engaging any enemy planes (or being intercepted by enemy fighter sweeps)

because a2a in witp is abstracted/simplified over a single map point with all aircraft represented...it tends, even with random rolls, to engage a tad bit (to a lot bit) too much with everyone taking shots.



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