RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI

RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (Full Version)

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Joe D. -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 1:57:55 AM)
How about an If, Then, Else command? If Germany occupys France in '44, Then invade w/ >=X number of units @ one of the following beaches (to be determined by a random dice roll), Else keep making more troops, transports, bombers/bomb runs, etc., in prep for the If (and just run it as a loop that checks this status every day?) The above could be modified into a function that also handles invasions for N. Africa (Torch) and Italy (Husky) w/the appropriate dates and locales. HoI2 solved this problem w/a Normandy scenario start date. Re better AI: even the old PG had an option that caused the AI to pull damaged units out of harms way in lieu of defending "victory hexes" to the death, unless that's what the player wanted as it made for a "tougher" -- if not smarter -- game. Does anyone know what exactly the higher difficulty settings actually do, i.e, veteran replacements, more opposing forces, etc.?

Barthheart -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 3:12:07 AM)
Higher levels = more starting units, higher production point generation, more oil generation.

IainMcNeil -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 12:31:09 PM)
It's a bit more complex than this unfortunately :) Scripting of this kind ends up with spaghetti strands that all intefere with each other. There are so many exceptions you need to think about or end up with an exploit that you have complex buggy code that's impossible to fix. Then think about the effects of different scripted events interacting and you've got a nightmare :)

Joe D. -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 3:18:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil It's a bit more complex than this unfortunately :) Scripting of this kind ends up with spaghetti strands that all intefere with each other. There are so many exceptions you need to think about or end up with an exploit that you have complex buggy code that's impossible to fix. Then think about the effects of different scripted events interacting and you've got a nightmare :) In reply to Barthheart?

IainMcNeil -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 3:31:46 PM)
Sorry - was in response to the comments on IF, THEN and scripting.

Joe D. -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 4:03:59 PM)
Ok, I assumed as much, but wanted to be sure before I responded. You folks at Slitherine know more re code than I ever will, but I thought using a called "invasion" function might avoid this spaghetti effect, or would it simply be a rouge function bouncing around your program like a pin ball?

IainMcNeil -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 5:33:34 PM)
We're looking in to it - it's just that we're not sure scripting specific events is the way to go.

balto -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 9:25:14 PM)
Man, unbelievable thread. I am getting crushed beaten by the AI when I am Axis (OIL PROBLEMS) .., and I have played HSP Simulations for years. I think I see why, the post said that he invaded England very easily.., I never thought of that! I think I got locked into what really happened.., well, sort of.., so I never think like that. I have a feeling when I play a human, I may be the worst challenger in the history of the board for CEAW. But, hey man, I am ready for anybody for a challenge! I will lose, but I am ready. Thanks

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 10:38:28 PM)
yea, I think that may be part of it, if you let England stand, soon, it will be a major airfield, and anything on the french coast is toast, if you clear out England, then it is a major pain to do a landing in France (think the AI is geared to land in France, and not to take back England, if it falls) you game the system, the system is easy, you play like you think it should be played, then it plays decent

targul -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/25/2007 11:35:43 PM)
Sarge that is always true. Most people find the flaws in the AI and abuse the game system instead of playing historically which the normally the design of the game and its AI. Regrettfully this games AI is seriously asleep in the Med. It seems incapable to invade France. Russia seems pretty good. If they put some work into the Med and shake those guys awake and make it recognize it should invade when the Axis appears weak then we will have a really good game. Still need plenty of work on the PBEM and IP needed also.

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 3:49:54 AM)
I have not seen the Allied AI be weak at attacking France ? the Med, yes the idea that the AI should attack when something is weak is wrong, the Allies didn't land in France in 42 or 43, when the Defence was weak, they landed when they were able to

Warfare1 -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 5:20:09 AM)
First, and foremost, this is a game - a turn-based game of military events that occurred between 1939-1945(6). As a game, it should be fun, enjoyable, and it should be a challenge. And finally, it should be somewhat unpredictable. I don't think the game should be locked into events only as they happened. And I think it should be nearly impossible for Germany to invade England early. House rules should not be needed. The AI needs to be tweaked whereby the English fleet and air force should attack with extreme prejudice any German/Italian ship that enters the water. One idea is that Germany should not be given any naval transport until late 1940/early 1941 to avoid any Axis player from invading England in 1939/40. It would not have happened in the real war. Coupled with this England should have a very large, aggressive surface fleet. With England secured, the Axis player will have a fight on his hands, without the need for house rules. Allied spoiling invasions/attacks should take place anywhere and everywhere, but specifically in North Africa, Greece, Sicily, etc... Keep the Axis player on his toes. Churchill would never have given up the Middle East. Along with strategic bombing of Europe, it was one theater of war whereby the British could attack German forces. The Middle East/Mediterranean area should be a major theater of war. It was in the real war for years. This sub-theater should provide for lots of strategy and excitement, as both the Axis and British players send reinforcements to it.

targul -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 6:47:43 AM)
Not sure how but I cant imagine England being invaded. I have been playing only Humans lately and mainly Allied. No one has tried and I feel confident any invasion would be quickly eliminated. Key is to maintain both a navy and land force in England. First thing I do is build up anti invasion force in England then I start looking at my navy. Finally I look at helping France and after that sending all the extra to Africa.

Dave Ferguson -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 9:53:17 AM)
Against a competent UK defence a successful invasion of the UK should have no chance, historically Sealion would not have suceeded even if the Luftwaffe had won the battle of britain. The key for the defence is denial of a port and you can use garrison units to build a defensive belt around critical ports, plus a strong navy to jump on the invasion forces and sink the Kriegsmarine. the game already gives the players as many shipping assets as they want, subject to spending 4pp to load the troops. germany has to have shipping available early war otherwise no invasion of norway or reinforcement in africa, plus it keeps the UK honest about home based troops.

JudgeDredd -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 11:17:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Warfare1 First, and foremost, this is a game - a turn-based game of military events that occurred between 1939-1945(6). As a game, it should be fun, enjoyable, and it should be a challenge. And finally, it should be somewhat unpredictable. I don't think the game should be locked into events only as they happened. And I think it should be nearly impossible for Germany to invade England early. House rules should not be needed. The AI needs to be tweaked whereby the English fleet and air force should attack with extreme prejudice any German/Italian ship that enters the water. One idea is that Germany should not be given any naval transport until late 1940/early 1941 to avoid any Axis player from invading England in 1939/40. It would not have happened in the real war. Coupled with this England should have a very large, aggressive surface fleet. With England secured, the Axis player will have a fight on his hands, without the need for house rules. Allied spoiling invasions/attacks should take place anywhere and everywhere, but specifically in North Africa, Greece, Sicily, etc... Keep the Axis player on his toes. Churchill would never have given up the Middle East. Along with strategic bombing of Europe, it was one theater of war whereby the British could attack German forces. The Middle East/Mediterranean area should be a major theater of war. It was in the real war for years. This sub-theater should provide for lots of strategy and excitement, as both the Axis and British players send reinforcements to it. I think these are very good points. In particular, and in a general sense, I think that's what sticks out at the moment about the game...the Axis are not kept on their toes. I mean to say, I'm having a hard time, and in fact am about to lose, in my first game as Axis, but I haven't really been challenged. The Eastern Front held out fairly well and is now getting stronger.... But I was able to pull units from all over the place to block the red tide. If the AI was competent, I wouldn't have been able to move units from other theatres (at least not in the scale I did)...in fact I'd most likely have had to ship units to other parts...now I might've lost the game alot earlier....but that's ok... Anyway, these particular points you made...it should be fun and enjoyable....it certainly is that, warts and all.

Warfare1 -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 3:35:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson Against a competent UK defence a successful invasion of the UK should have no chance, historically Sealion would not have suceeded even if the Luftwaffe had won the battle of britain. The key for the defence is denial of a port and you can use garrison units to build a defensive belt around critical ports, plus a strong navy to jump on the invasion forces and sink the Kriegsmarine. the game already gives the players as many shipping assets as they want, subject to spending 4pp to load the troops. germany has to have shipping available early war otherwise no invasion of norway or reinforcement in africa, plus it keeps the UK honest about home based troops. Hi :) I was thinking mainly in terms of playing against the AI. You are right, though, playing against a human eliminates many problems. You also bring up an excellent point regarding Germany's ability to invade Norway, etc. So maybe, in addition to a large, aggressive fleet, England should have some very tough, non-movable garrison units stationed in all British ports? This would help avoid an Axis player using gamy tactics to attack the Allied AI. I don't like the idea of using house rules, and I think this game can be tweaked to provide the right balance needed. In addition, a great editor will also go a long way to allowing users to tweak campaigns, and to create new ones, which should give gamers a tough challenge.

Warfare1 -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 3:44:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd quote: ORIGINAL: Warfare1 First, and foremost, this is a game - a turn-based game of military events that occurred between 1939-1945(6). As a game, it should be fun, enjoyable, and it should be a challenge. And finally, it should be somewhat unpredictable. I don't think the game should be locked into events only as they happened. And I think it should be nearly impossible for Germany to invade England early. House rules should not be needed. The AI needs to be tweaked whereby the English fleet and air force should attack with extreme prejudice any German/Italian ship that enters the water. One idea is that Germany should not be given any naval transport until late 1940/early 1941 to avoid any Axis player from invading England in 1939/40. It would not have happened in the real war. Coupled with this England should have a very large, aggressive surface fleet. With England secured, the Axis player will have a fight on his hands, without the need for house rules. Allied spoiling invasions/attacks should take place anywhere and everywhere, but specifically in North Africa, Greece, Sicily, etc... Keep the Axis player on his toes. Churchill would never have given up the Middle East. Along with strategic bombing of Europe, it was one theater of war whereby the British could attack German forces. The Middle East/Mediterranean area should be a major theater of war. It was in the real war for years. This sub-theater should provide for lots of strategy and excitement, as both the Axis and British players send reinforcements to it. I think these are very good points. In particular, and in a general sense, I think that's what sticks out at the moment about the game...the Axis are not kept on their toes. I mean to say, I'm having a hard time, and in fact am about to lose, in my first game as Axis, but I haven't really been challenged. The Eastern Front held out fairly well and is now getting stronger.... But I was able to pull units from all over the place to block the red tide. If the AI was competent, I wouldn't have been able to move units from other theatres (at least not in the scale I did)...in fact I'd most likely have had to ship units to other parts...now I might've lost the game alot earlier....but that's ok... Anyway, these particular points you made...it should be fun and enjoyable....it certainly is that, warts and all. JudgeDredd: Glad to hear you are having a great game. If England can be secured from a human player's invasion, and if unpredictable Allied attacks can be created in various places, then the battle in Russia will be even tougher. How is the Allied strategic bombing in your game? Is it on-going? Can you defend against it? How are your oil reserves? I also think the player should expect a massive Allied AI assault sometime in 1944 along the coast in France. Make the player sweat, especially if he's entangled in Russia. In addition, the British AI should be contesting the Med area and the Middle East in a fanatical manner. The strategic nature of the Middle East should be forcing major naval and land battles. This game should be about unpredictable events that forces the Axis player into shifting scarce material and military resources from theater to theater.

Syagrius -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 3:49:12 PM)
In my first campaign as the Axis by 1943 I had conquered Paris and Moscow, secured oil in the Middle-East and Caucasus, and then in 1944 the Russians counterattacked and the Allies landed in France, I litteraly collapsed, running out of manpower. [8D] So no, I dont think the AI is that bad for a first release.

Warfare1 -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 3:52:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Syagrius In my first campaign as the Axis by 1943 I had conquered Paris and Moscow, secured oil in the Middle-East and Caucasus, and then in 1944 the Russians counterattacked and the Allies landed in France, I litteraly collapsed, running out of manpower. [8D] So no, I dont think the AI is that bad for a first release. Excellent. I think the game just needs to be tweaked in certain areas.

themattcurtis -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 4:21:08 PM)
quote: I mean to say, I'm having a hard time, and in fact am about to lose, in my first game as Axis, but I haven't really been challenged. The Eastern Front held out fairly well and is now getting stronger.... But I was able to pull units from all over the place to block the red tide. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. "I'm about to lose but I haven't been challenged because I didn't lose sooner?" In my mind, not being challenged means you win without breaking a sweat. From posts from a number of players, I keep hearing conflicting messages about the AI. It doesn't move. It does move. It's not a challenge. I've just lost the game... It's not your job to make things clearer for me, but it might help folks who haven't dived into the game to form a clearer picture if someone posts what they see from the beginning of a campaign to the end.

Rybeck -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 7:12:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Syagrius In my first campaign as the Axis by 1943�I had conquered Paris and Moscow, secured oil in the Middle-East and Caucasus, and then in 1944 the Russians counterattacked and the Allies landed in France, I litteraly collapsed, running out of manpower.�[8D] Ouch that is scary. Capturing Moscow, the Middle-East oil AND the Caucasus should have virtually won you the war, or at the very least, outright crippling/defeating the Soviets. Sounds a little harsh if that's not good enough to win? [&:]

Syagrius -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 7:18:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rybeck quote: ORIGINAL: Syagrius In my first campaign as the Axis by 1943�I had conquered Paris and Moscow, secured oil in the Middle-East and Caucasus, and then in 1944 the Russians counterattacked and the Allies landed in France, I litteraly collapsed, running out of manpower.�[8D] Ouch that is scary. Capturing Moscow, the Middle-East oil AND the Caucasus should have virtually won you the war, or at the very least, outright crippling/defeating the Soviets. Sounds a little harsh if that's not good enough to win? [&:] Yes it sounds scary, but keep in mind its was my first campaign. The thing I didnt mentioned is that I have overused my manpower producing infantry corps and garrissons and underfunded my research, two mistakes I will not repeat. Russian and Allied troops became of superior quality so I was taking too much casualities. As for the Russians, even if Moscow has fallen, they are not completely defeated yet. They still receive convoys and pumping units from their new capital in Perm.

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 7:43:24 PM)
getting deep into Russia is a royal pain, you can not keep a soild line, and the deeper you get, the worse it is, and then the partisons start to pop up, and all you need is a gap in the line and a open city, for the AI to rush in and take it, and then you have a major force show up in your backyard so you are always on your toes, and don't build so much you run out of manpower, if so, then you have high tech, but poorly trained troops one hassle with the AI, is it looks like it works with a area idea, and not a full line, my last game, the GE shifted north as it went into Russia (I was stronger in the south) as I was falling back in the north, I was moving forward in the south, taking out Romy and Hun in fact, I had troops at the gates of Berlin, when the GE had troops at the gates of Moscow

benpark -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 8:30:49 PM)
To those that don't have the game yet and are wondering about the AI (my opinions based on 2.5 games): The very good: In my two games so far vs. the AI, the fight in the USSR has the AI trying to encircle my units when the attempt to break out in ways that are pretty interesting. Overall, the AI does well in this type of combat. The bad: The AI has failed to invade mainland Europe in any sizable number by late 1944. The game in the Med is a pushover, with the British not sending any additional troops, and leaving their fleet in dock for the entire game. As I said in another thread, I don't believe that giving the AI "more" of everything to beat a player is the answer. Make it decisive and somewhat unpredictable, and that's good enough. I'm going to play my next game with the FoW off, and I'll see what the AI is doing behind the scenes.

Syagrius -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 8:47:47 PM)
In my own experience I can say the Allies landed almost 20 corps, with at least 5-6 armoured,�in France in spring-summer 1944 with heavy naval and air cover. My army in France was too weak to oppose�them.� So I�can't say the Allies "failed" to attack in 1944. Hower its true that the Med is very quiet and that landings in Italy or Greece would had been virtually unopposed by me...I guess it will be addressed in updates.

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 9:46:52 PM)
maybe this is why it is better to play with FOW on (hopefully a data glitch ?) [image]local://upfiles/1438/0B48A24BD97E4F6F9E315BBC656A6175.jpg[/image]

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 9:48:22 PM)
which will say, it is aug of 40 now and not seen another reseach statement for the Allies, but level 6 Close Air Support on the first turn !

firepowerjohan -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/26/2007 11:07:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge which will say, it is aug of 40 now and not seen another reseach statement for the Allies, but level 6 Close Air Support on the first turn ! Sounds like this is some leftovers from a game you played and then quot to main menu. Did you play a game and quit to the main menu and then started over? Can you tooltip the enemy and see if they really have that high tech level, I doubt it and it is probably the begin turn menu not resetting itself.

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/27/2007 1:57:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan quote: ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge which will say, it is aug of 40 now and not seen another reseach statement for the Allies, but level 6 Close Air Support on the first turn ! Sounds like this is some leftovers from a game you played and then quot to main menu. Did you play a game and quit to the main menu and then started over? Can you tooltip the enemy and see if they really have that high tech level, I doubt it and it is probably the begin turn menu not resetting itself. I had loaded a end game save to look at the end of game stats so yes, it could be a left over no US FBs in game as of yet and from the screen shot, the UK has a low war % so does not look like a level 5 so overall would say it was a glitch

Hard Sarge -> RE: Europe at War - great game, if it had AI (6/27/2007 2:37:04 PM)
yea, it looks like it is a bleed though from the last date load (I loaded the end game to see if the Allies kept Tobruk as Fort) then started my GE game I started yesterday, first report screen comes in with the same info so not a issue, but maybe something clean up later on :) [image]local://upfiles/1438/91CBF3E7B94F44FBAEC0C76B46269897.jpg[/image]

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