Speed? (Full Version)

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Oleg Mastruko -> Speed? (6/26/2007 4:27:35 PM)

Do ships ever lose speed in this game? I've seen DDs and CAs hanging on to a last 2-3 "health bars", burning, still being able to make 30+ knots. Obviously no (progressive) flooding damage has been modelled specifically - which I can understand to a degree - and fire damage does not slow down ships one little bit. [&:]

Comments?



MarkShot -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 4:54:36 PM)

Interesting. I thought that's why there is a scuttle command to keep a TG from being slowed down by a laggard due to damage.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 5:40:24 PM)

SSG would benefit by explaining this. I believe that I understand what they are up to from a conceptual level. But, like Oleg, I rarely see even the most heavily of bomb-damaged vessels reduced in speed. While none of the IJN carriers at Midway took a torpedo hit, all were either dead in the water within moments, or suffered massive degradation of their ability to make way. Akagi experienced a jammed-rudder from a near-miss, and moved about in slow circles for hours, IIRC. If it's your design intent that these vessels are actually "sunk" in game terms, that all their "damage-bars" are gone, and that's why they've [edit: FINALLY] lost way, please say so.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)




fabforrest -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 5:44:27 PM)

i know in the original CAW a heavily damaged ship had greatly reduced speed. i have not seen that in this version, but i have not really been looking for it.



AlvinS -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:40:48 PM)

I am also seeing the same things. Last night I had a TF get hammered and was still making good speed.



OldBoney -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:43:33 PM)

Yes, I've had the speed reduced on damaged ships and since the TG moves at slowest ship's speed the TG is affected. I think it's permanent damage that does it and it doesn't always happen (random component?).



themattcurtis -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:45:21 PM)

I've seen damaged ships suffer in terms of performance.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:50:42 PM)

Slowdowns happen very very rarely, especially with warships, and I've seen ships with 8-9 bars of permanent damage run at 30+ knots which should never be.

I've got my own hypothesis as to why it works this way, but will restrain from posting it lest I appear again too negativistic [8|] 



themattcurtis -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:57:54 PM)

quote:

I've got my own hypothesis as to why it works this way, but will restrain from posting it lest I appear again too negativistic


Why? You've got serious issues with the MP aspect of the game. And the smiley kinda blasts any efforts not to be critical out of the water. Might as well just put your thoughts out there.



Prince of Eckmühl -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 6:59:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Slowdowns happen very very rarely, especially with warships, and I've seen ships with 8-9 bars of permanent damage run at 30+ knots which should never be.


In my experience, this is the norm. I rarely see bomb-damaged ships with reduced speed.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 7:05:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis
Why? You've got serious issues with the MP aspect of the game. And the smiley kinda blasts any efforts not to be critical out of the water. Might as well just put your thoughts out there.


Because AI would have problems handling any more groups than it has at the start of the scenario, so devs tried to minimize situations where you need to - or indeed can - detach ships. Remember that ships have to be made detacheble in the editor - most are not detachable at all (if I understand this part of the game correctly).

Most CAs are not detachable, so when slowed down to 15 knots would weigh the whole force down. Easiest solution is to implement the damage model that almost never slows the ships down significantly, let alone stops them completely, so you always have your starting TFs and no need to detach.

Thats why we don't have ability to form our own TFs etc. But, as I clearly said, this is just my hypothesis, malevolent as it is [:'(]



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 7:10:50 PM)

Aoba here makes 33 knots which is the top speed for her class (undamaged of course) so she keeps up with her undamaged sisters even though it has 6 bars of "black" damage. This should never happen in my opinion, no matter how you rationalize it ("it's just the superstructure damage"). But Aoba is not detachable, so what do we do?

Kinugasa is quite damaged as well.

This is by no means the most radical example (I've seen ships hanging onto 2-3 health bars speed 30+) but it was just handy to post as I had the screenshot ready.

This kind of resistance to damage makes bombardment forces almost impossible to stop, but I'll post about that in separate thread.

[image]local://upfiles/1633/AF683B4E5F404F2282CBF08EF262707C.jpg[/image]



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 7:16:56 PM)

Poor little fragile DD Suzukaze has 1/3rd of her "health" gone but it still makes 34 knots. It's just superstructure damage, but machinery is doing fine? Hard sell, but then are her guns and torpedos and fire control affected? Or will her armament fire with full efficacy?

I am not trying to be an a$$, just to understand how the game models these things. Besides I think DDs are far far too resistant to damage as it is.

Boston Maru burns heavily, and is hanging onto last "health" bars but still can make 14 knots which I believe is the top speed for her transport class....

[image]local://upfiles/1633/3D281DDBD66C461AB4FDED966D048C45.jpg[/image]



themattcurtis -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 8:17:04 PM)

Wasn't accusin you of being obnoxious.[:'(]

Wanted to hear what you had to say. [:)]



CJMello63 -> RE: Speed? (6/26/2007 11:54:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Do ships ever lose speed in this game? I've seen DDs and CAs hanging on to a last 2-3 "health bars", burning, still being able to make 30+ knots. Obviously no (progressive) flooding damage has been modelled specifically - which I can understand to a degree - and fire damage does not slow down ships one little bit. [&:]

Comments?


Maybe they were going downhill. [;)]



Adam Parker -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 1:08:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CJMello63

Maybe they were going downhill. [;)]


AWESOME! [sm=00000280.gif][sm=00000280.gif][sm=00000280.gif]

Oh [:)] This is my vote for internet post of the year! [sm=00000280.gif][sm=00000280.gif][sm=00000280.gif]



CactusAF -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 2:36:30 AM)

Full speed is good thing. Player shoud no complain. Many say that speed is broke when ship is hit and hten the base can sink. Nobody agrees that this happens always. Some just talk more than others and are loud.



Gregor_SSG -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 2:39:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: themattcurtis
Why? You've got serious issues with the MP aspect of the game. And the smiley kinda blasts any efforts not to be critical out of the water. Might as well just put your thoughts out there.


Because AI would have problems handling any more groups than it has at the start of the scenario, so devs tried to minimize situations where you need to - or indeed can - detach ships. Remember that ships have to be made detacheble in the editor - most are not detachable at all (if I understand this part of the game correctly).

Most CAs are not detachable, so when slowed down to 15 knots would weigh the whole force down. Easiest solution is to implement the damage model that almost never slows the ships down significantly, let alone stops them completely, so you always have your starting TFs and no need to detach.

Thats why we don't have ability to form our own TFs etc. But, as I clearly said, this is just my hypothesis, malevolent as it is [:'(]



It's not a problem for the AI. It can scuttle ships that are handicapping the TG.

Gregor



Troutie_SSG -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 7:10:48 AM)

Okay, gents... it may well be that damage is not affecting the speed of ships as much as it should. I'm going to pull the mechanics apart and see what can be done. It may well result in a more precise structure where damage may affect each ship differently. I'll put up more info when I have something more to report.



hank -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 5:02:00 PM)

Good discussion.  I'm on the hunt for a good WWII naval warfare game.  CAW is one i'm looking at (along with HPS's Guadalcanal ... even though the two games are very different).  IMHO, if a ship was half destroyed its speed should be affected to some degree either through drive train damage, lack of comm from bridge to engine room, hull ripped open, etc etc)



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 5:17:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hank
Good discussion.  I'm on the hunt for a good WWII naval warfare game.  CAW is one i'm looking at (along with HPS's Guadalcanal ... even though the two games are very different). 


Even though I am oftenly the first to criticise CAW on this forum lately I got to say this game is way WAY better then anything from HPS IMO.



Toby42 -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 6:04:12 PM)

And especially from torpedo damage???



hank -> RE: Speed? (6/27/2007 7:32:05 PM)

Thanks Oleg.  The two naval games are very different. I've got lots of titles from both HPS and SSG. I like the games each company produces for different reasons. Plus I'm waiting anxiously for BftB from Panther games.




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