The Burma Railway (Full Version)

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fentum -> The Burma Railway (6/26/2007 7:22:37 PM)

What a cracking small scenario. Poses many dilemmas for the Japanese ... How to split your forces north and west ? Do you risk double time and the subsequent fatigue? Should you send an assault force to retake the northern victory objective? How long can the south western victory objective hold, even with 8 or 9 morale?

So far, I've mostly been making the WRONG decisions, but hey, I'm learning a lot! Any tactical help welcome.

Beautiful game.

Fentum



Temple -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/26/2007 7:43:18 PM)

That's a great scenario, I played it ealier this year via my copy of Talonsoft's Rising Sun. The night rules in Rising Sun require that you address some significant issues. Leaving opportunity fire enabled may cause your unit to OF fire at the wrong time, giving away your position and bringing down a lot of unwanted attention. But set OF to the adjacient hex only and the unit may waste a chance to fire when it might do some real good.

How you split your forces really is dependent on whether you have played the scenario before. Once you've played it and seen how the enemy approaches you can make your decisions based upon that knowledge for a second playing. The real fun is playing it the first time and getting clobbered when you realize you aren't all that adept at managing a small battle [;)].

Without giving everything away to people who haven't played it yet, I would recommend that as in any JTCS battle where you are on offense you must be mindful of the turn limit and how quickly you can move to objectives. If you will have game turns to spare then it's helpful to send a recon or scout unit to find out where the enemy is located or if there are mines or obstacles. In a situation where you might be meeting a more mobile enemy then a recon in force might be more helpful, since you can use it to delay the enemy and give you time to move up and deploy your main force.

My weakness is that I tend to do a "hey diddle diddle, straight up the middle" approach to contact. Once you start getting some disrupted units you tend to get pinned to a location. This is especially true when playing the Command & Control rules where you want to keep the platoons of the same company together to get the benefit of the inherent HQ in the first platoon.

You mention fatigue, so you already are aware of that very important tool in Rising Sun. Scenarios in RS tend to feature a lot more troops on foot and that extra movement every other turn is very valuable.



fentum -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/27/2007 12:44:53 AM)

Temple,

Thanks for the feedback. It's like ghosts in the night due to the low visibility . Very appropriate for chindits. Finally achieved a Minor Victory, at third attempt ! Almost like a game of chess with rifles. Every move of every unit is critical in this one - especially the leaders and mortars.


Fentum



Elwro -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/29/2007 1:57:29 AM)

Thanks to this thread I decided to try this fantastic little scenario. And thanks to the warnings I decided to take it seriously :-). I forfeited the northern 25 pt objective, trying to defend the other ones. I split the forces fairly equally, but noticing the "How long can the south western victory objective hold, even with 8 or 9 morale?" question by fentum I put a bit bigger force there (I used double time during the first few turns). I also left 3 artillery units to the east of the objectives (near the starting point of the scenario). And... voila! Axis Major Victory on my first try :-)

But still, this is perhaps more due to luck because I just tried to desperately hold positions around the objectives, moving the leaders to disdisrupt units in need. (Also, due to my ineptitude I lost the HQ halfway through the battle.) All my attempts to make starshells useful were futile, I profited more from gun flashes revealing units hidden in the darkness. Which brings me to my question.

The game behaved as if I had ticked the "Extreme Fog of War" option, but I hadn't - it was turned off. Anyway, I didn't get the assault odds displayed and enemy's units were always (I think) "Unknown". Was it caused just by the fact that the scenario took place at night?



TAIL GUNNER -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/29/2007 7:37:54 AM)

quote:

The game behaved as if I had ticked the "Extreme Fog of War" option, but I hadn't - it was turned off. Anyway, I didn't get the assault odds displayed and enemy's units were always (I think) "Unknown". Was it caused just by the fact that the scenario took place at night?


yessir, all night scenarios use Extreme Fog o' War...

makes them that much more nail-biting, yeah?[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]



Elwro -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/29/2007 9:58:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Juggalo

yessir, all night scenarios use Extreme Fog o' War...

makes them that much more nail-biting, yeah?[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]
Hell yes. In combat, I almost always got the "Unknown results for unknown units" outcome and had to look closely whether the enemy was forced to move, or a unit just disappeared from the stack, or a "D" appeared in its infobox... the low amount of information makes for nice atmosphere.



fentum -> RE: The Burma Railway (6/30/2007 1:10:31 PM)

Elwro,

Glad you enjoyed it !

I must stop including spoilers in my comments !!


Fentum



luisenpc -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 4:29:00 PM)

Hi

I'm new to this game and wargames in general. I just started playing this and, of course, there are a lot of things I don't know yet. Anyway I played Burma Railway scenario right after the bootcamps. At the end of the 12th turn I had mantained all objectives except the northern one and I still had an Axis minor defeat even though close to draw. How is this possible? Shouldn't I have won?
Please help on this.

Thanks,
Luis



Jason Petho -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 6:44:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: luisenpc

Hi

I'm new to this game and wargames in general. I just started playing this and, of course, there are a lot of things I don't know yet. Anyway I played Burma Railway scenario right after the bootcamps. At the end of the 12th turn I had mantained all objectives except the northern one and I still had an Axis minor defeat even though close to draw. How is this possible? Shouldn't I have won?
Please help on this.

Thanks,
Luis


Did you suffer a lot of losses? Losses of strength points costs you victory points, so even though you may have secured all or most of the victory locations, if you suffered too many losses, you can still lose the scenario.

Jason Petho



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 7:09:52 PM)

If I remember correctly, "The Burma Railway" is a smaller scenario.  In smaller scenarios, the loss of your HQs can tip the scales dramatically because they are worth so many victory points.  Conversely, if you can locate and eliminate the enemy's HQ, that can tip the scales dramatically in your favor.  If you lost your HQs and the enemy kept his, that would probably be a big factor. 

Some of the artillery pieces and leaders can be relatively expensive to lose too, and, if you're playing the Japanese, their leaders are more vulnerable (I think twice as vulnerable as leaders in other countries) and a lot of their artillery can fire only directly, that is, with a direct line of sight to the enemy, which makes them vulnerable too, because the enemy can see them and fire back accurately.  I remember the Japanese had artillery in "The Burma Railway," but I also remember it was direct fire artillery with only a few exceptions.  If you lost a lot of artillery and a number of leaders, that was probably a big factor. 

I could be wrong, but my recollection is that the victory hexes in "The Burma Railway" weren't worth that many points, so the emphasis was on destroying far more enemy units than you lost of your own.  Jason would know more about this than me, but I think sometimes victory hexes are used more to anchor the AI troops in certain locations than for any intrinsic value to the terrain, although the terrain will always have some strategic or tactical value to it, which is why the designer wanted to anchor some AI troops there.

When looking at the available victory points and at what it will take to win in the victory chart, you can usually get a feel for what is more important -- the victory hexes or devastating the enemy forces.  Sometimes you can afford to take heavy losses to obtain a victory hex.  Sometimes you're required to take the victory hex on the cheap.  Sometimes you won't have to worry about the victory hexes much at all and will have to focus on obliterating the enemy.



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 7:16:41 PM)

The only other thought I had, and here again, Jason could probably enlighten us on this point, is that sometimes the really valuable victory hexes are there to intice a futile attack.   It's designed as a trap.  The way to win the scenario lies elsewhere.  "The Burma Railway" isn't that way. 



Jason Petho -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 7:20:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

The only other thought I had, and here again, Jason could probably enlighten us on this point, is that sometimes the really valuable victory hexes are there to intice a futile attack.   It's designed as a trap.  The way to win the scenario lies elsewhere.  "The Burma Railway" isn't that way. 


I would be happy to, but I will have to play that particular scenario first.. *laughs*

As noted in a previous post, I generally find myself on the East Front.

Jason Petho



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 7:37:08 PM)

"Like Thieves in the Night" (one of those hypothetical scenarios where Germany has overrun England and you fight as the English Resistance) is one scenario where the objective hexes are, by and large, to be avoided at all costs.  For that matter, avoiding German troops is strongly encouraged too.  The way to win is to find the German trucks and other vulnerable units and destroy them before the German infantry track you down.  As the British Resistance, you lose that firefight every time.  To get a major victory, you have to locate not only the German trucks, but you also have to locate a German HQ and destroy it.  Doing reconnaissance in an English town filled with hostile Germans makes the game challenging. 

Regarding the East Front, someone else suggested underground movement in the sewers or subways in Stalingrad and Berlin, respectively.  With the Japanese caves, that concept would seem to transfer fairly well to this suggestion.  On the other hand, there apparently is a serious bug associated with the Japanese caves.  I don't believe a fix for that is in the next patch.  Would you consider adding sewer or subway movement to the East Front?  Do you think it would add or subtract from the game?  Some alterations end up destroying the balance of play.  I'm not sure how this one would impact gameplay.



Jason Petho -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 7:41:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Regarding the East Front, someone else suggested underground movement in the sewers or subways in Stalingrad and Berlin, respectively.  With the Japanese caves, that concept would seem to transfer fairly well to this suggestion.  On the other hand, there apparently is a serious bug associated with the Japanese caves.  I don't believe a fix for that is in the next patch. 


That is correct, but we are trying to figure out what that problem is. Hopefully a solution will be found by the time we release 1.03.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Would you consider adding sewer or subway movement to the East Front? 


I would consider adding it, yes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Do you think it would add or subtract from the game?  Some alterations end up destroying the balance of play.  I'm not sure how this one would impact gameplay.


Depends on how you look at it, really. That vast majority of new additions/features we have added will only affect NEW scenarios. The balance of existing scenarios should not be altered. Therefore, it is up to the scenario designer to use the new toys/features in a balanced method.

Jason Petho




1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 8:43:46 PM)

I haven't played with caves in RS enough to evaluate them.  In East Front, I could see how sewer movement to cross river hexes that were otherwise uncrossable might add something to a Stalingrad scenario, because there'd be a way to sneek troops across the river, but I don't think sewers were used that way in Stalingrad.  In Berlin as well, I don't think the subways were used that much.  Hitler flooded them and drowned a bunch of people who were using them as airraid shelters or just as shelters.



luisenpc -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 9:19:15 PM)

Thanks for all the help and how fast you answered. I checked out the save game file and in fact, even though the casualties were balanced between allies and axis, I in fact lost the HQ. I suppose that made all the difference.
Thanks again for helping, I'm still learning.



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 9:47:49 PM)

I don't recall specifically, but the victory chart will list the loss of Strengh Points on the left and Victory Points (or something else) on the right.  The Strength Points have different values.  The loss of six empty truck Strength Points would be worth six Victory Points.  The loss of six HQ Strength Points might be worth fifty-four Victory Points (nine Victory Points for each Strength Point lost), but I doubt you had six HQ points on the map.  You can lose the same number of Strength Points as your opponent, but the Victory Point differential can be enormous depending upon what it was you lost.  The infantry units are generally worth three Victory Points per Strength Point, but it can vary.



luisenpc -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 11:45:30 PM)

Well, I lost 34 Sp's while the allies lost 31. Total points lost was 120 for me and 94 for allied. Of the 125 objective points available (three 25point victory hexes and one 50point victory hex) I had 100 points and allies 25. This gives me 74 points which represents a minor defeat. Hope this makes more sense to you than it makes to me :)
Could you recommend an interesting scenario from Rising Sun for a beginner like me to enjoy and learn?
Thanks for the feedback.



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/11/2007 11:56:04 PM)

I'd recommend staying with the small scenarios.  There's a small scenario where you capture Tulagi island and where you have beach landings and, I believe, a tank that uses flame throwers, which is useful for assaults.  I remember a small scenario that takes place in the Aleutian islands in the snow.  You may even want to play "The Burma Railway" again to see if you can improve your score, now that you're a little more familiar with the game.  I remember the northern objective was far enough away that it became problematic to know how many troops to send up there, and I had to use the banzai assault several times before taking it.




1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/12/2007 12:15:42 AM)

You got the 100 points for victory hexes.  You lost 26 points in the casualty count.  You ended up with 74. 

Because the Allies started with all the victory hexes, the only thing they could do was lose points, so the 25 they kept doesn't get reflected in the score. If you look at your score when the game starts, you wouldn't start out at negative 125 because they were all in the Allied hands.  Instead, you'd start out at zero.  You could only benefit by taking victory hexes.

The actual SP losses don't figure in the score.  It's the value of SP losses that counts.



Elwro -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/12/2007 12:55:56 AM)

I'm convinced that my major victory in this scenario was mainly due to artillery, left in the back, but positioned so that it could fire into 'interesting' hexes. (Always check the ranges!) It's easier to do this if you deliberately give up on the northern objective.



luisenpc -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/12/2007 1:08:19 AM)

I didn't lose any artillery unit and had them in the back in a place where I could use them in both fronts, which I did. I'll try again and try to get the northern objective although it's hard to divide the troops because the allies really start pushing at the west. I'll see what I can do.
Thanks! 



Elwro -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/12/2007 1:34:55 AM)

Sorry if it's a stupid question, but did you remember to use starshells? :-)



luisenpc -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/13/2007 3:45:23 PM)

Well, I have to say no, even though I know they exist, I didn't know how to use them. I should have read the manual but I prefer to learn this by trial and error. Can you explain to me the logic of starshells?
Thanks and please understand my great lack of knowledge.



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/13/2007 6:15:36 PM)

Don't worry about a lack of knowledge.  That's one of the things a forum is for -- to get help.  I have a lot of questions too that I'm sure others consider rudimentary, but I consistently get courteous responses.

Regarding starshells, on night turns, I believe the firepower is reduced by one-half in the dark.  A starshell puts you back on daylight standing, and the units fire at full power.  If you're shooting enemies in the light, and they're shooting back at you while you're in the dark, you have double the firepower of your opponent, which translates into a tremendous advantage.  The AI will use starshells, though probably not as effectively as you'll learn to use starshells. 

To fire a starshell, the unit has to be able fire smoke.  For smoke, I think you push alt and fire.  For starshells, you push both alt and shift and fire.  The starshell won't always work, so if nothing happens, try again.  Eventually one will work.  I don't think there's a delay.  If you try to plot a starshell, you'll know immediately if it worked.  It works like direct fire.



Arizonus -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/14/2007 5:52:38 AM)

     1925Frank has a good summary of the use of Starshells, but I just want to point out that ANY unit with Attack Factors > 0 can fire Starshells, not just smoke-capable units - direct fire units have a range of 2 for this purpose, indirect fire units halve their max range (but are not delayed as normal fire missions are). Leaders improve the odds of successfully deploying a Starshell. Starshells scatter fairly regularly, so direct fire units have a tendency to light up their own positions as often as anything else!
    When deciding who ought to try for a Starshell, I consider mortars and disrupted units best bets - mortars, because they are fairly weak (their firepower won't be missed as much) but can still toss one out behind the enemy so scattering Starshells won't accidently bathe my own troops in light, and disrupted units cuz, you know, what else do they got going in their lives? Disrupted units have a lesser chance of succeeding in their Starshell roll (20% as opposed to 40% for non-disrupted) but like I say, they often don't have anything better to do. Attempting a Starshell does not draw OpFire.
    The most common reason to fire a Starshell is when you want to inflict maximum casualties - choose carefully the time and place, as you are limited in the number you get; don't use them on the off-chance that you might see something interesting! Wait until it's do-or-die time and then light him up. By the same logic, they can be used to forestall an attack, like a denial-of-use weapon. Placing a Starshell in front of your lines may convince the enemy to delay his advance or else get pummelled by your fire, but again, wait until you are convinced your Starshell is needed. Don't toss them out there "just in case" unless you have plenty of them, which is rare....

    Good luck!

                                                                                               Ariz



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/14/2007 6:49:18 AM)

I didn't know any unit can fire a starshell.  I don't know how I managed to miss that one.  Thank you Arizonus.  I'm assuming it's still alt, shift, and fire at the same time for, say, a rifle platoon.  And I'm also assuming it costs the unit's normal points to fire, so, if a rifle platoon has only fifteen action points left, it won't be able to fire a starshell.  I thought they worked just like smoke.



Arizonus -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/14/2007 7:12:55 AM)

     Yup, alt-shift-fire does it for any unit....however, it only costs 20 AP for each attempt, so you can try two or three times and still have AP left to fire with. A Leader must be selected along with the firing unit in order to modify the roll, costing him 20 AP as well; this is different from regular fire in which a Leader automatically modifies the roll whether you want him to or not.
    One of the hardest parts to think about is the pure mechanics of this rule...the Starshell disappears first thing at the beginning of the firing player's next turn (before artillery spotting is resolved, or anything else). So, while your direct fire in the turn of the placing of the Starshell is improved by the Starshell, so is the enemy's direct fire in his upcoming turn; if you pop a Starshell in order to make OpFire better for you in the enemy turn, you may well be illuminating your own guys for the enemy's pleasure to come (OpFire being dicey at best!). A Starshell is best used when you have a lot of direct fire to place into the illuminated zone....

                                                                                        Ariz



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/14/2007 8:24:54 AM)

I've been playing this game for years and didn't know that.  It's like an epiphany.  It was only by accident while observing a different post that I learned you could put smoke on shallow water.  I'm having a blast learning new things.  Thanks again for making the effort to point this out.



1925frank -> RE: The Burma Railway (7/14/2007 8:47:33 AM)

I don't mind getting corrected, especially when I'm wrong or acting with inaccurate information.  It's kind of like walking around with your fly open.  (Unintentionally.  I'm not going to speculate on why anyone would want to walk around deliberately with a fly open.)  You're usually better off knowing the true score.  I checked my old RS Manual, and it's just like you said.  I can't tell you how many times I've read that thing, and it's never clicked. 




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