Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (Full Version)

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dtravel -> Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/28/2007 10:39:33 AM)

Game as Allies against AI, V.Hard level, early June 1945, PDU off, Soviets not active. I've just had the Soviet 113 BAD upgrade from PE-2 to Tu-2S, for the second time, the turn before my current turn. But I just noticed that the unit is back to being equipped with PE-2. The Tu-2S pool is still down the 126 aircraft that were used upgrading the unit twice.

Zip file containing the last 11 end-of-turn saves: http://rapidshare.com/files/39787752/upgradebug.zip



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/28/2007 2:24:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

Game as Allies against AI, V.Hard level, early June 1945, PDU off, Soviets not active. I've just had the Soviet 113 BAD upgrade from PE-2 to Tu-2S, for the second time, the turn before my current turn. But I just noticed that the unit is back to being equipped with PE-2. The Tu-2S pool is still down the 126 aircraft that were used upgrading the unit twice.

Zip file containing the last 11 end-of-turn saves: http://rapidshare.com/files/39787752/upgradebug.zip



Is this against AI? Otherwise you need to PM your PW...

i shall investigate tonight when i get home.



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 12:50:34 AM)

[image]http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9097/fighting0064of5.gif[/image]  [:'(]



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 3:02:10 AM)

OK - at home now - i forgot to ask: what version are you running??



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 3:20:01 AM)

OK - this is just a mess - i don't need 11 saves, just 1 save before, and 1 after - trying to unzip the 11 files just starts overwriting other test files (so got aborted)- and the files i did unzip and that i've looked at don't have the unit you referred to (113th BAD)

So - just send 1 before and 1 after turn. If i can't replicate the bug, you can send me another set of saves.

Tell me WHERE the unit is ('cause i don't see it).

and i need to know what version you are running.

EDIT - despite your playing the AI, a fair number of files have PW on them...




rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 3:56:48 AM)

Let me clarify what saves i need:

i need a save where the unit in question has the correct plane, and the next turn where it reverts...

So, presumably the 113th BAD will have the TU-2S one turn, and then it will revert to Pe-2 the next turn (reverts, as you said). i need those 2 turns. If you sent them in the 11 saves, let me know which ones they are.

And i still need to know what version you are running.



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 4:59:29 AM)

1.806, the 006 save (6/3/45) and 007 save (6/4/45).



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 6:08:07 AM)

This is SEMI-reproducible... 1st time i ran from a cold boot - no go. i ran it again without rebooting and the bug showed up, but not with the same numbers as in your save...

Actually, this is fairly typical (bugs showing up when you have not rebooted between turns) for AI games, i've found.

i'm checking to see what the programmers can do.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/29/2007 2:06:15 PM)

OK - after checking with the software guru, i am forwarding this to him...



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/30/2007 5:58:28 AM)

I can't help but think that if such basic memory management and database functions had been done right the first time, we never would have had such bugs as the Leaders and PBEM Synch bugs. 

(I'm going to leave it at that because if I say anything more I'm going to get banned.)



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/30/2007 6:29:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I can't help but think that if such basic memory management and database functions had been done right the first time, we never would have had such bugs as the Leaders and PBEM Synch bugs. 

(I'm going to leave it at that because if I say anything more I'm going to get banned.)



i suspect much of this is a function of Windows... running different programs, etc. will induce different errors, which i think accounts for the difficulty in reproducing the errors... something that has become all too apparent as a tester.

and no, i don't think this is a problem unique to WITP.

It has also become apparent to me that the more things you have installed on your machine, the more problems start happening in general, even if the installed programs are not running.

i **think** that many of the errors that happen to different people while others are spared the errors is dependent on some of the programs people have installed.



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/30/2007 10:37:27 AM)

As for "other programs", you mean like my anti-virus software?  Or the drivers for my optical drives?  The kind of stuff that everyone has running on their computers?  The stuff that people realistically can't do without?  Since I don't have an isolated stand-alone computer dedicated solely to running WiTP, I have other things running on it.  Other games don't have anywhere near this level of trouble with that simple reality.

Its been hinted that WiTP was written in some version of C.  C is notorious for being very easy to bleep up the memory management if the programmer doesn't take some basic precautions and pay attention to what they are doing.  As the saying goes, "In C++ its harder to blow your foot off than C, but when you do you blow your whole leg off."

I'm not blaming you Robert.  I know its not your fault.  You verified the bug and passed it on.  So please don't take my ranting personally, its not meant to be.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/30/2007 4:41:20 PM)

Lots of stuff you don't want to turn off as you mentioned.

However, with Windows, i've found the more stuff you turn off (or don't install) the better... i.e. - i was having severe problems with my machine until i removed half of the printer/scanner/fax software from my HP "All-in-one" printer/scanner/fax.

Similarly, LOTS of (other) programs just LOVE to load TSRs - and they can really bollux things up. Some of the more persistent problem children i've run into are:

AOL - i refuse to allow the to be installed on any machine of mine.
Norton Antivirus and related programs - they get everywhere in your registry and you have a deuce of a problem with them when things go wrong.
RealPlayer - another program i refuse to let onto my machines.

Any program that loads a little icon in the lower right hand corner of your machine is going to cause problems, i think (and some load TSRs that you have no control over). The trick is to find the one that causes the least problems, and is the least "invasive" and still gets the job done. Even then, it is still advisable to turn off some of these programs from time to time.

This is NOT an easy task.



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (6/30/2007 11:11:17 PM)

I know, I did it years ago.  I found that the program TaskInfo http://www.iarsn.com/taskinfo.html was very useful if finding all those and helping me kill them off.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/1/2007 1:45:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I know, I did it years ago. I found that the program TaskInfo http://www.iarsn.com/taskinfo.html was very useful if finding all those and helping me kill them off.


Hopefully other folk will take this to heart, and save themselves some problems in the future by taking preventative action now.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 4:07:03 AM)

OK - this is incredible but true...

it turns out it is DESIGNED TO WORK THIS WAY!!!

The programmer and i are both scratching our heads - apparently, the Russians will undergo a major upgrade starting in June 1945... and the units are "locked into" their original configurations by a whole section of code... if you upgrade, this section of code will return a LCU to its orginal setup.

What to do? Well, there are a couple of solutions that i can think of:

Either ACTIVATE THE SOVIETS - and you'll need to talk to your PBEM opponent about this option... (don't know of anyway you can get the AI to do it!) or

TURN OFF ALL UPGRADES FOR THE SOVIETS.

From what i understand/guess, this is all put in for benefit of the AI.



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 11:48:09 AM)

Huh?  That's not making any sense.  Soviet air units have been upgrading all game without any problem until now.  And is that section of code dealing with air units or LCUs or both?  I'm still not sure this is working right.  There may have been some intent to ready the Soviets for their August '45 activation but downgrading air units doesn't make sense as part of that.

At any rate, I have already turned off upgrades for the Far East Command air units and I'm well in to June '45.  If I see more strangeness I'll let you know.  But as of 10 June 1945 there's been no sign of any kind of command wide upgrading.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 2:26:21 PM)

i suspect you'll start seeing the problem as you get into mid-1945...

don't ask me to make sense of the idea - i think it was supposed to be some sort of fail-safe for the ai to make sure there were no corrupted units... [8|] [X(]



michaelm75au -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 2:41:37 PM)

Tidbit of information:
The following air group slot numbers get upgraded for the Soviets post-June 45. The groups even have their names changed from that of the original slot name.
        1045
        1055
        1035
        1046
        1054
        1052

        1025
        1056
        1053
        1051
        1049

        1057




tanjman -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 3:09:59 PM)

Micheal,

Thanks for the Info on the Soviet hard coded air group slots! I've heard this happens to some Soviet LCU's also. If you know which slots are affected could you post them?

Thanks



michaelm75au -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 3:18:56 PM)

Land units:
slot number, TOE changed to                    // old name  -   new name -  HQ(?)
        {2164,2100,BASE_BORZYA},            // 35RD        -    2RC        -    36A
        {2165,2100,BASE_BORZYA},            // 66RD        -    86RC    -    36A
        {2166,2100,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 78RD        -    5GRC    -    39A
        {2167,2100,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 79RD        -    94RC    -    39A
        {2168,2100,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 101Mtn    -    113RC    -    39A

        {2170,2109,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 187Gun    -    3GArtD    -    39A
        {2171,2109,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 181How    -    6GArtD    -    39A
        {2186,2100,BASE_CHOYBALSAN},        // 21RD        -    18GRC    -    53A
        {2187,2100,BASE_CHOYBALSAN},        // 22RD        -   49RC    -    53A
        {2188,2100,BASE_CHOYBALSAN},        // 26RD        -    57RC    -    53A

        {2182,2107,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 58TB        -    5GTC    -    6GTA
        {2183,2106,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 69TB        -    9GMC    -    6GTA
        {2184,2106,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 239MB    -    7GMC    -    6GTA
        {2185,2106,BASE_TAMSAG},            // 8Cav        -    3GMC    -    6GTA
        {2189,2100,BASE_RUKHLOVO},            // 39RD        -    56RC    -    16A

        {2190,2100,BASE_KUYSYSHEVKA},        // 59RD        -    5RC        -    15A
        {2191,2100,BASE_IMAN},                // 1RB        -    26RC    -    1RBA
        {2192,2100,BASE_IMAN},                // 4RB        -    59RC    -    1RBA
        {2193,2100,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK,},        // 5RB        -    17RC    -    5A
        {2198,2100,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK},        // 549How    -    45RC    -    5A

        {2212,2100,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK},        // 52Gun    -    65RC    -    5A
        {2216,2100,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK},        // 32RD        -    72RC    -    5A
        {2217,2100,BASE_VLADIVOSTOK,},        // 40RD        -    39RC    -    25A
        {2218,2100,BASE_KHABAROVSK},        // 92RD        -    87RC    -    35A
        {2219,2100,BASE_KHABAROVSK},        // 105RD    -    88RC    -    35A

        {2201,2106,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK},        // 59TB        -    10MC    -    5A
        {2226,2110,BASE_UGLAHAMENSK},        // 282Gun    -    5AArtD    -    5A
        {2227,2110,BASE_IMAN},                // 548Gun    -    1RBAArtD -    1RBA
        {2206,2110,BASE_KUYSYSHEVKA},        // 42Gun    -    15AArtD -    15A
        {2207,2110,BASE_BLAGOVESHCHENSK},    // 550How    -    2RBAArtD -    2RBA

        {2195,2102,BASE_OBOTO},                // 50Gun    -    209RD    -    17A
        {2196,2102,BASE_OBOTO},                // 273Gun    -    278RD    -    17A
        {2197,2102,BASE_OBOTO},                // 199How    -    284RD    -    17A
        {2173,2106,BASE_OBOTO},                // 411How    -    MongMech -    17A
        {2202,2102,BASE_BLAGOVESHCHENSK},    // 69MB        -    396RD    -    2RBA

        {2213,2102,BASE_VLADIVOSTOK},        // 76Gun    -    393RD    -    25A




tanjman -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 4:00:25 PM)

Micheal,

Thanks again!



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/2/2007 4:14:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelm

Tidbit of information:
The following air group slot numbers get upgraded for the Soviets post-June 45. The groups even have their names changed from that of the original slot name.
        1045
        1055
        1035
        1046
        1054
        1052

        1025
        1056
        1053
        1051
        1049

        1057





OK - i assume since this is hard-coded, it will also happen in CHS... time for me to turn off some upgrade options...[:(]



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 10:19:30 AM)

Okay, I'm up to 16 June 1945 and Soviet air units all over the place are changing equipment and size.  I've given up trying to track all of them.  (So are LCUs.  You remember in 'Star Wars' the sound R2D2 made when he got shot in the head during the attack on the Death Star?  That's the sound I made when I saw one of the upsized Soviet Rifle Corps.  [X(] )

Personally I think this is very badly handled.  It means the Soviets waste a lot of supplies if their air units upgrade just to have the program change the units around on them.  And the Soviets don't have enough supplies to do that, they get effectively no supply and what they start with is only just barely enough to reach 1945 without units starving.  The fact that the player has no warning about any of it just makes it worse.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 1:43:13 PM)

Hey, we gave you at LEAST 12 hours notice!! [X(] [8|] [:'(]

EDIT - truthfully, i am glad i am finding this out in 1941 rather than 1945... i would be pulling what remains of my hair out if i had this happen in 1945...[sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

Since most of the games are in the early stages of the war (due to restarts, etc.), more and more late war problems are only now starting to come to light (pilots go missing, this problem etc)

i suspect we will only find more and more problems as games progress into their late stages.



wworld7 -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 2:06:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i suspect we will only find more and more problems as games progress into their late stages.


I've always thought this, but it sure does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling in my belly.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 2:16:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i suspect we will only find more and more problems as games progress into their late stages.


I've always thought this, but it sure does not give me that warm fuzzy feeling in my belly.



No doubt with our current team, we will whip the game into shape in a matter of days!! [X(] [8|] [:D]

EDIT: PS - how do we know Flipper Was Irish??? [&:] [:'(]



wworld7 -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 2:59:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

EDIT: PS - how do we know Flipper Was Irish??? [&:] [:'(]


That is a silly question.

If you read any significant text (ie: The Bible, The Koran, The unabridged version of WITP manual etc.) and if you believe in the power of the Dolphin, then you will find the truth.

So it is said, so it will be.



rtrapasso -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 3:05:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

EDIT: PS - how do we know Flipper Was Irish??? [&:] [:'(]


That is a silly question.

If you read any significant text (ie: The Bible, The Koran, The unabridged version of WITP manual etc.) and if you believe in the power of the Dolphin, then you will find the truth.

So it is said, so it will be.


i going to have to re-read the WITP manual!!! [:D]



dtravel -> RE: Air unit upgrade rollsback, twice (7/3/2007 9:50:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

EDIT: PS - how do we know Flipper Was Irish??? [&:] [:'(]


That is a silly question.

If you read any significant text (ie: The Bible, The Koran, The unabridged version of WITP manual etc.) and if you believe in the power of the Dolphin, then you will find the truth.

So it is said, so it will be.


i going to have to re-read the WITP manual!!! [:D]


I said the unabridged version. The one never released.



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