Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (Full Version)

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spcsisco -> Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 12:02:00 AM)
This game had huge potential and probably still does. I just cant believe I paid 60 bucks for this game that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I'd rather play HOI a hundred more times then this game. I can wait for the 500meg patch so that it might be somewhat interesting to play. Yet another example of a game company putting a game out before it done. I know one thing....I'll buy Matrix and Slitherine games used before I'll buy a new one from one of there sites. Huge rip-off and highly disappointed...............................

Fred98 -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 1:19:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spcsisco ......that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I gather your rant is about the AI. Is your rant about anything else?

IainMcNeil -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 1:31:37 AM)
Thanks for the feedback. Can I suggest you play on a harder setting as the normal one is only intended for the tutorial to get you started.

Major Victory -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 1:37:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spcsisco This game had huge potential and probably still does. I just cant believe I paid 60 bucks for this game that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I'd rather play HOI a hundred more times then this game. I can wait for the 500meg patch so that it might be somewhat interesting to play. Yet another example of a game company putting a game out before it done. I know one thing....I'll buy Matrix and Slitherine games used before I'll buy a new one from one of there sites. Huge rip-off and highly disappointed............................... Perhaps for your skill level, you should play your 7 year old!

targul -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 1:44:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spcsisco This game had huge potential and probably still does. I just cant believe I paid 60 bucks for this game that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I'd rather play HOI a hundred more times then this game. I can wait for the 500meg patch so that it might be somewhat interesting to play. Yet another example of a game company putting a game out before it done. I know one thing....I'll buy Matrix and Slitherine games used before I'll buy a new one from one of there sites. Huge rip-off and highly disappointed............................... Game has problems we all know that but this kinda rant will accomplish nothing. What do you find most offensive? You really need to list them. Let the designers know by that list and maybe they can be fixed. HOI sucked on release also but now it is HOI2 and much more involved. I know I bought it when it was released as I did this one. Really though this is a fun game. AI is still absmal give them a chance but while waiting try play people. I can assure you many good and competent players exist in this game and many will have you holding on by your nail regardless of your favorite side. Okay my rant is now done

IrishGuards -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 2:17:46 AM)
How Rude .... [8\|] IDG

Phatguy -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 5:34:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spcsisco This game had huge potential and probably still does. I just cant believe I paid 60 bucks for this game that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I'd rather play HOI a hundred more times then this game. I can wait for the 500meg patch so that it might be somewhat interesting to play. Yet another example of a game company putting a game out before it done. I know one thing....I'll buy Matrix and Slitherine games used before I'll buy a new one from one of there sites. Huge rip-off and highly disappointed............................... You know, I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but on reflection will add my own thoughts.... This was the most expensive computer game I ever bought at close to 70 bucks. I was a bit peeved at the generic nature of this game. Actually something stronger than peeved would be a better description. But I am willing to jump in and see if I can help in anyway I can. No help will come from a rant. They will not refund you your money. It's not like the old days when you could pop back into EB and exchange it for another wargame on the shelf. You can either hide and sulk or try to chime in with constructive critisism. Try a harder level. I did and the game is more enjoyable. Yes, I do have issues with what the programmers did in regards to certain things but I figure I can chime in and give my view and eventually they will hopefully gather the best ideas from everyone here and either give us a "500 mb" patch or incorporate them in a future edition. Ok.. my 270 pound frame is cracking my soapbox..Time to get off....

LitFuel -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:19:55 AM)
Actually I think you pout like my daughter did when she was seven...

Phatguy -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:39:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LitFuel Actually I think you pout like my daughter did when she was seven... Actually I haven't pouted since they ran out of barbeque wings and vodka at the Anchor bar

IainMcNeil -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 10:53:28 AM)
We're happy to listen to all feedback - good and bad :)

JudgeDredd -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 12:49:50 PM)
Well...with regards to the AI...I played one notch to the Allied AI and as Germany it's mid 44 and I'm in full retreat across Europe. My units are delpleted to the point of being useless. All of my production points go to putting useless reinforcements into my units to try and stem the flow from France and Russia. Yes the AI sat on it's arse for the best part of the game...only Russia went active and I didn't DoW on Russia...it did it to me! Yes Africa is still mine with no sign of allied troops...but what use is it to me... I'm not a great wargamer...I just like the fun of the challenge. I am not a great strategist. However, if your 7 year old daughter is that good, I'd be interested in a PBEM with her....just to see [:D] So whilst I think the AI could do with cranking up, I'm having a good time playing this AND a challenge.

HansBolter -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 2:11:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil Thanks for the feedback. Can I suggest you play on a harder setting as the normal one is only intended for the tutorial to get you started. What part of "normal" being intended to constitute "normal" persists in escaping the grasp here? If you wanted a special dumbed down, AI handicapped mode for the tutorials I suggest that a mode called "introductory" would have been preffered by your customers who expect "normal" to be exactly that.

IainMcNeil -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 2:31:21 PM)
There are very different expectations from difficulty settings from you guys and from the more casual gamer. If you add an easy setting, nobody uses it - they play on normal. Nobody wants to feel dumb and play on the easy setting. They are rarely if ever used. It's just the way it is. We have to make the normal setting easy so that new players will not be beaten by the game. If people lose most of them stop playing. They should try again at an easier setting, but most don't - they give up and say the game is crap. It's just the way it is. As you guys are all hardened wargamers its obvious you need more of a challenge than the average person. We either had to make it too easy for you on normal or too hard for the average guy. We always go with what the average guy would want. Maybe that was a mistake because this game has more of a niche market than our previous games, but we are trying to reach out to more casual gamers with the slick UI. It's not something we overlooked, it's a design decision. If other people were prepared to play on easy settings or be beaten it wouldn't be an issue - but they're not. We thought you guys would be willing to up the difficulty, but looks like we were wrong! :)

HansBolter -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 3:28:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil There are very different expectations from difficulty settings from you guys and from the more casual gamer. If you add an easy setting, nobody uses it - they play on normal. Nobody wants to feel dumb and play on the easy setting. They are rarely if ever used. It's just the way it is. We have to make the normal setting easy so that new players will not be beaten by the game. If people lose most of them stop playing. They should try again at an easier setting, but most don't - they give up and say the game is crap. It's just the way it is. As you guys are all hardened wargamers its obvious you need more of a challenge than the average person. We either had to make it too easy for you on normal or too hard for the average guy. We always go with what the average guy would want. Maybe that was a mistake because this game has more of a niche market than our previous games, but we are trying to reach out to more casual gamers with the slick UI. It's not something we overlooked, it's a design decision. If other people were prepared to play on easy settings or be beaten it wouldn't be an issue - but they're not. We thought you guys would be willing to up the difficulty, but looks like we were wrong! :) Is it possible the error of your reasoning lies in having tried to facilitate the "casual gamer" in the first place? War games appeal only to a niche market the majority of which is made up of us "hard core" wargamers, shouldn't they be designed for that market. If you dumb them down to appeal to the masses you run the very real risk of losing the very market one assumes you were targeting in the first place. Just an observation. [:)]

IainMcNeil -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:11:34 PM)
It's not dumbed down, it is just the way the difficulty settings are labelled. We're not talking about casual gamers - we're talking about average gamers who used to buy these type of games like Panzer General.

LitFuel -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:26:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker quote: ORIGINAL: LitFuel Actually I think you pout like my daughter did when she was seven... Actually I haven't pouted since they ran out of barbeque wings and vodka at the Anchor bar I didn't mean you, I ment the first post...running out of wings and vodka is a good enough reason for me to pout...

DBeves -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:29:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: spcsisco This game had huge potential and probably still does. I just cant believe I paid 60 bucks for this game that is so simple and easy that my 7yr old daughter can beat it. I'd rather play HOI a hundred more times then this game. I can wait for the 500meg patch so that it might be somewhat interesting to play. Yet another example of a game company putting a game out before it done. I know one thing....I'll buy Matrix and Slitherine games used before I'll buy a new one from one of there sites. Huge rip-off and highly disappointed............................... Whilst I dont really agree with the way he said I do think he has a point. I like so much about the game (large map - hexes graphics) but seriously - there does come a point when you make a game so simple that it ceases to have any validity as a wargame. There was indeed so much they could have done with this thing - without necessarily making it horrendesly complicated like WITP - that would have made it much more enjoyable for wargamers - but the whole thing is dumbed down - supposedly to attract some ephemeral "casual gamer" market that its not something I will now unfortunately spend much time with. And I am not talking AI here just the basic simplicity of the engine. Why people still come to forums such as these and rant on about AI - when its something no - one - even with vast resources - can program to any kind of acceptable level baffles me. I really do wish that people would take current AI standards for what they are - which is nothing more than a useful learning tool ... Really - not much point "dumbing" something down so much to attract one market that you lose another (more valuable one - and the core one at that). Sorry ... but this was an expensive game that provides little more than curiosty value for me as a wargamer who wants to be faced with some kind of decision making challenge and at least an attempt at portraying real world military problems.

LitFuel -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:37:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil Thanks for the feedback. Can I suggest you play on a harder setting as the normal one is only intended for the tutorial to get you started. What part of "normal" being intended to constitute "normal" persists in escaping the grasp here? If you wanted a special dumbed down, AI handicapped mode for the tutorials I suggest that a mode called "introductory" would have been preffered by your customers who expect "normal" to be exactly that. heaven forbid you lift your little finger and click on the higher setting...gheesh!...I love wargames, and the history and all that but not all of us are "Hardcore", some actually still know how to have fun with a game, and not analyze it so much that it sucks the fun out of it. Thank goodness most developers do think about the whole crowd and not just the "hardcore"group because if they did all we would have are dry replaying history games where every game was the same and boring as hell.

firepowerjohan -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:41:12 PM)
No one would call Chess to be dumbed down despite very small board and very simple rules. Despite no economy, diplomacy, building, research chess is a classic game that no one really masters despite a small 8x8=64 square board. [:)]

JudgeDredd -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:42:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil There are very different expectations from difficulty settings from you guys and from the more casual gamer. If you add an easy setting, nobody uses it - they play on normal. Nobody wants to feel dumb and play on the easy setting. They are rarely if ever used. It's just the way it is. We have to make the normal setting easy so that new players will not be beaten by the game. If people lose most of them stop playing. They should try again at an easier setting, but most don't - they give up and say the game is crap. It's just the way it is. As you guys are all hardened wargamers its obvious you need more of a challenge than the average person. We either had to make it too easy for you on normal or too hard for the average guy. We always go with what the average guy would want. Maybe that was a mistake because this game has more of a niche market than our previous games, but we are trying to reach out to more casual gamers with the slick UI. It's not something we overlooked, it's a design decision. If other people were prepared to play on easy settings or be beaten it wouldn't be an issue - but they're not. We thought you guys would be willing to up the difficulty, but looks like we were wrong! :) I do exactly this....start on normal (never easy) then get bored when the game is too difficult... However, it's not because I don't want to start on easy because of any embarrassment factor...more that I don't want to "discover" the game on easy mode then have no surprises for a challenge... I still haven't learned my lesson after all these years

Syagrius -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:47:43 PM)
This guy (first poster) is just bragging...playing with FOW and Oil with slight advantage to Allies and the game is for sure challenging for me.

DBeves -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 4:53:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan No one would call Chess to be dumbed down despite very small board and very simple rules. Despite no economy, diplomacy, building, research chess is a classic game that no one really masters despite a small 8x8=64 square board. Well yes ... A classic "game" - but one as a representation of real world problems and history - which as a wargamer is what I want - and what defines my hobby - I have an utter lack of interest in playing ... what worked a couple of thousand years ago doesnt now - cant think anyone would seriously code a game know where cavalry could only move two spaces forward and one sideways ... comparisons for effect have to be made between things which bear at least a passing resemblance to each other

gmothes -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 5:11:16 PM)
Yes, increase the difficulty level and the game is quite challenging. I do agree though that we need to see more allied activity in the Med Theater. There are some other features I would like to see added, but all in all, I am satisfied with the game.

MengCiao -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 5:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil We're happy to listen to all feedback - good and bad :) Well...then let me say that I love the basic look and feel of the game. I even like the AI. It can put up a good fight at times. The game seems to have a lot of potential and I'm sure with some tweaking and some optional rules it will steadily get more interesting. It is already very entertaining.

HansBolter -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 5:34:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil It's not dumbed down, it is just the way the difficulty settings are labelled. We're not talking about casual gamers - we're talking about average gamers who used to buy these type of games like Panzer General. Ok, I guess we are not communicating here. I thought you were the one who made the reference to casual gamers. Casual gamers bought Panzer General because they saw it on the shelves in major retail stores. Unless you plan to market a game by placing it on the shelves of major retail outlets casual gamers are not ever likely to even learn of it's existence. If it is only available and marketed through dedicated wargame websites then the likely target market is going to be gamers with a distinctly "wargame" bent. That's all I was trying to say.

IainMcNeil -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 5:46:51 PM)
Casual gamers dont even go in to stores - we're talking about more casual than hardcore wargamers. I think the problem is that some people are expecting the game to be more hardcore than it is. It's not because we forgot to put these features in or didn't get time. We deliberately abstracted a lot of things to keep the pace of the game quick and approachable. I look at most wargames these days and lose interest in the first 5 minutes because you cant just pick them up and play them anymore - you need to invest so much time in them to get anything back and I simply dont have the time to give. This is where the comparisons to Panzer General kick in - you could just pick it up and play it and it was fun. No manual required though it was there if you wanted to know how thins worked under the hood. Far too many wargamers have become elitist and put down anything that does model every simgle factor during the war and this encourages developers to over complicate their games, alienating the average gamers. Then they complain that the hobby is stagnating and about the price of games! We aim to reverse that with approachable strategy games that are fun, interesting and hopefully sell to a wider audience!

Paul Vebber -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:00:01 PM)
Well said Iain - and another point about "casual" gamers is a lot of them are kids - my daughter being one of them. She liked the game a lot and has learned a lot about simple things like geography and the general course of events in the war by playing and asking me questions about it. She "Cut her teeth" on Attack and wanted to try "one of those ones with the hexagon maps"... THis fit the bill perfectly... Any more complexity in options and "things to do" (or being much harder on "normal") and she would have never given it a second look. As a vehicle to introduce kids to "real warames" we desperately need "lite" titles like this! I'm sure it will only get better!

HansBolter -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:12:25 PM)
If you two guys make an effort to get the chips off your shoulders we might have a chance at some worthwhile discourse here. I can appreciate that you are feeling a little "put upon" by the rather harsh criticism coming down from the hardcore gamers here, but a little less "bristling" under the strain of that criticism would go a long way. I have not criticized the game for it's "lite" approach, in fact if you read my comments in the partisan thread, you will find me arging in the opposite direction. I was merely trying to point out the potential pitfall of making "normal" mode "introductory" mode!

x0r -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:19:48 PM)
I am a casual gamer and have tried some "harder" games but did not got into them. I save them for later when I have more time. This game though is great for me. Must be, cant stop playing [:D]. Hmmm, how about not having time? [;)] Eventually I get more hooked and try the other games aswell. Beware! [:D] Looking forward to a game like this one that covers the whole globe. [8D] /X

Banquet -> RE: Commander SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!! (7/3/2007 6:40:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DBeves Why people still come to forums such as these and rant on about AI - when its something no - one - even with vast resources - can program to any kind of acceptable level baffles me. I really do wish that people would take current AI standards for what they are - which is nothing more than a useful learning tool ... I wish more people would moan about AI more often, in more forums. That way it might improve. I understand it's hard to do a good AI, especially for a strategic game, but many developers don't spend enough time on this aspect. I imagine you play online/PBEM mostly? If so, you, like many, don't really care about the AI.. and seem quite happy to post on forums about how it's only ever going to useful as a learning tool, but lots of people - probably the majority - still play solely against the AI and, if it's done well, have a lot of fun doing so. Having a game with no AI, or a bad AI, forces people to either play with a friend who shares their interest (which for many doesn't exist), or go trawling online for an opponent who may end up being unsuitable for a variety of reasons. This will only make niche wargames even more grognardy and less appealing to many people in my opinion.

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