Review @ Out of Eight (Full Version)

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JaguarUSF -> Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 4:19:35 AM)

A review of John Tiller’s Campaign Series has been posted at Out of Eight PC Game Reviews:
http://jaguarusf.blogspot.com/2007/07/john-tillers-campaign-series-review.html
Enjoy!



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 4:26:06 AM)

Some of the issues are correct but I still think the game is great.  Myself I would have given it a 7 out of 8.  The graphics are dated but there not that bad.  There is newer gamers out with worst graphics.



Jason Petho -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 4:54:03 AM)

A few questions, comments.

Thanks for doing a review James!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
A user interface is supposed to be intuitive and help you ascertain the battlefield situation, but the interface here is stuck in the olden days when computers ran on Chiclets.


Hmm, which of the user buttons wasn't intuituve? The symbology of the buttons appear to be common sense to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
is nearly impossible since must watch every single slow movement of every single slow unit on the map


Did you play with the "Fast Computer" settings on? This speeds up 3D view play, as well as 2D. This is found under the Options menu.. pressing M reveals the Menu.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
When you are controlling over 200 units in one scenario, this gets old really quickly.


Of course, especially on slow mode, on the other hand there are ample scenarios where each side has less than 20 units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
Unit feedback is also difficult to determine, as the game can only display the morale, action points, or strength one at a time; otherwise, you need to select each of your hundreds of units


Assuming you're playing a monster scenario and assuming all of your units are in action during the turn.. otherwise morale, disruption, etc remains the same from the following turns. An easy thing to remember when you play a lot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
The minimap is pretty useless at it doesn’t show victory locations.


The mini map is a jump map, for you to jump from one location where your units are to another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
The overlays for movement limits are difficult to ascertain at large zoom levels


Hmm, have to disagree with you there.. but I could well be used to it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
There are just a bunch of small problems with the user interface that results in a game that’s awkward compared to more recent wargames.


Such as?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
Each unit does have movement and combat sounds and the background music is OK, but we’ve seen all of this before and there is nothing too spectacular about the sound.


I can't disagree with you there!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
There are some oddities in the game: for example, please explain to me why units move faster on snow than on a road in a forest.


Did you try to pass through the forest with more than 12Strength Points at a time? Only 12SP will use the road benefits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
And the action points required for firing weapons doesn’t seem to make sense: most units fire twice in six minutes.


Considering this is a platoon level game, based on hexes of 250 meters, the amount firing is abstract. Is the platoon in question maneuvering for position within the hex? One has to think outside the box, so to speak.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
... so traversing large expanses of land will require moving every unit every single turn instead of setting a single waypoint and letting the game take care of it automatically


True, but you can use the echelon movement, which certainly speeds up play during the turn eliminating the need to move "every unit every single turn".


quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
having to individually guide each of your 400 units scattered across the map.


*laughs* the amount of units keeps growing!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
the amount of micromanagement required in John Tiller’s Campaign Series is just more than I want to handle.


Which is why there are ample smaller scenarios, with less than 40 units, in all three games. Something for everyone!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
game moves at a snail’s pace, unless you play from the 2-D view


See my comment above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
as finding information is more difficult than it should be


Also, pressing F2 gives you a tonne of useful information about the selected unit!

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
those who aren’t passionate about the series will just find an outdated and complex wargame that’s too unwieldy for its own good


Complexity is merely abundant simplicity. There is simplicity within the game system for those who prefer quick battles as well as those who prefer the monster battles.

Thanks again!
Jason Petho





Arizonus -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 6:17:35 AM)

.....kinda funny he gives the interface a thumbs-down while the A/I gets thumbs-up....pretty much exactly what one might expect if a newbie were to spend only a little time with the game before making his conclusion....



JaguarUSF -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 7:06:10 AM)

I was referring to the the user interface as a whole, not just the buttons: the lack of feedback for all the units without having to select them individually, movement restriction overlays, etc. There is a lot of screen that could have been filled with pertinent information. It's hard to gague who has moved and who hasn't. These are the small problems I am referring to. I think that all attributes should be shown on the main map screen for all units for simplicity's sake, unless they are attainable from looking at the unit (such as morale or damage levels) which, in the case of this game, they are not.

I did play with Fast Computer, but you still have to watch every unit move which takes a while in large games. Most scenarios have higher complexities...there were maybe 10 or so scattered across the three games with low complexities, so I based most of my observations off of this.

I played Rising Sun when it came out so I am familiar with the series; when compared with contemporary wargames it lags behind in terms of ease of use for beginning players. The amount of feedback and the ease of getting it is not at the level I would like to see.

Most of the things in my review that I comment are (obviously) opinion, and I can certainly understand differing opinions to my own. I was just not a fan.

Oh, and I think I saw a scenario with 1,432,765 units. I swear.



Jason Petho -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 7:35:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF

It's hard to gague who has moved and who hasn't.


This can be resolved by pressing the T button the keyboard, revealing the thermometers which you can alter the display of Action Points remain, Strength or Morale.

Jason Petho




Arizonus -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 7:48:29 AM)

....or "Highlight Moved Units" in the "Display" drop-down....



Vincenzo_Beretta -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 1:13:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
is nearly impossible since must watch every single slow movement of every single slow unit on the map


Did you play with the "Fast Computer" settings on? This speeds up 3D view play, as well as 2D. This is found under the Options menu.. pressing M reveals the Menu.


Beside, if you really want to go esotheric, you can scroll the map so that the unit(s) you want to move is off map, and the hex you want to reach is on the edge, and then you right click on the hex. The off-map movement is resolved at once, and you see the unit(s) enter the hex after a second. If the moving units meet some opposition, or some kind of obstacle, while off-map, the movement action is of course interrupted.

There are many, many ways to speed up movement in the Campaign Series. I think that, actually, it is the opportunity to slow down movement the "option" (I find it relaxing in small and medium scenarios, anyway) [:)]




CJMello63 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 3:14:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF

I did play with Fast Computer, but you still have to watch every unit move which takes a while in large games. Most scenarios have higher complexities...there were maybe 10 or so scattered across the three games with low complexities, so I based most of my observations off of this.


Use 2D.



Titanwarrior89 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 4:27:06 PM)

Nice rebuttle Jason. I am playing the "Overlord" scenario and with the AI and my units on fast. The game still plays fast for it size.

I think one of strong points of the game is the large and small scenarios. You have the option of either.



1925frank -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/8/2007 10:49:55 PM)

I thought the review was dissappointing.  I thought the criticisms as well as the things he approved of showed a lack of familiarity with the game.  As noted in a lot of the replies, a lot of the perceived shortcomings are addressed in the game itself, if the reviewer had taken the time to learn the game a little better.  I think the reviewer may have bitten off a big scenario and found the experience overwhelming.  I wouldn't recommend learning the game on a big scenario. 

The reviewer indicated he'd played the game before, but the review itself failed to support that assertion.  I would hope if the reviewer played a few small scenarios (and there are some really small scenarios) and learned the ropes a little better, his opinion might change.  He may still not like the game, but his criticisms might ring a little truer or closer to the mark of a legitimate complaint. 

When I first started learning the game, it was a little disorienting, but that's true of any game whose rules you have to learn.  It's not particularly fun getting in over your head.  My first few times playing the game weren't that fun either.  I remember constantly trying to figure out whether to use a Panzer III or a Panzer IV for a soft attack.  Initially I don't think I ever used the assault aspect.  When I started learning the assault aspect, I initially removed the fog or war so I could see the odds before I initiated an assault.  As war games go, however, Campaign Series is, at least to me, fairly simple to learn.  Its simplicity is one of the surprising things about it.  It's kind of like chess.  Learning how the pieces move takes a short time.  Learning how to move them to defeat an enemy is the real fun.  The more you learn about the strategy, the greater the enjoyment. 

If you're someone who hasn't played the game before, the reviewer is correct about one thing -- it's more complex than Stratego and Risk.  The game may seem a little intimidating at first, but you'll be surprised how rapidly you learn, and, best of all, you'll find the effort was worthwhile.  I didn't have a forum to help me learn the game.  With Matrix, there's a highly responsive forum.  I'm sorry the reviewer didn't like the game.  I think he's really missing out on a lot of fun. 

One more thing.  After playing the game, you might actually learn something, or you might be tempted to pick up a book on a certain subject.  The scenario notes and the unit information (F2) provide a lot of information for anyone who's curious.  The game also captures the technological race inherent during the war.  What was a good tank in 1939 might be obsolete by 1941.  A tank may be able to bully infantry in 1940, but that same tank or even a better one may want to keep a wide birth if infantry in 1944.

It's not a perfect game.  It has its faults.  Just not necessarily those articulated by the reviewer. 



Chris Bisson -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/9/2007 12:03:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho


quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF

It's hard to gague who has moved and who hasn't.


This can be resolved by pressing the T button the keyboard, revealing the thermometers which you can alter the display of Action Points remain, Strength or Morale.

Jason Petho





I always, always play with on map thermometers turned on. Usually with action points displayed. Makes it much easier to see what units havn't moved yet, assuming you're in 3D mode.



MartNick -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/9/2007 1:14:26 AM)

I've had all the CS game series from EF numero uno to the new Matrix release, and I'm still finding new things about the game! Just goes to show you only get out of it, what you are prepared to put in [;)]



Krec -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/11/2007 8:41:33 AM)

I am a little shocked at the review of this game.[&:]   Almost all the complaints listed seem due to lack of understanding of the interface. [8|] The interface is really basic and quite frankly very easy to use and understand. I personally like the game menus so i dont have a bunch of crap on the screen.[;)]  Most info is 1 click away and very easy to read and understand .  IMO This is one of the best turn based tactical wargames around.  The game is not perfect but it is really good, and has stood the test of time .  I have played so many crappy wargames that when i see a review like this it chaps my hide .  [:@]   btw the game is a its best against other people either live or email and that is where the game shines.     Jason ,  you guys have done a great job.  thanks for bringing us die hards lots of enjoyment.     



Huib -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (7/11/2007 2:26:35 PM)

Sorry, but to me such reviews are utterly useless. One has to understand the game (and preferrably also other games to compare with) toroughly to stand up and review the game. This is clearly not the case here. I bit more modesty before expressing one's opinion and write down unfounded judgements in public would have been in place.

Huib



thomas6 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/27/2007 2:19:10 PM)

No, it doesn't have astonishing graphics (when did it first come out...?) and the AI is sometimes so crap that I wish I could shoot my own officers -- especially those who have hidden at the edge of the board with their HQ (I play exclusively against the AI...). How about adding THAT option to Patch 3 [8|] ?

But I've had it since EFII came out and have played it ever since. Every game -- even when the AI gets routed -- is a thriller. It's definitely the best wargame I've ever played. It's the ONLY wargame I play now. How many other 10-year-old video games do people play? How many other 10-year-old games are worth remaking?

You haven't got the space or cash for the miniatures you'd really like to play with? This game is a wonderful substitute!





serg3d -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/27/2007 3:33:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho
quote:

ORIGINAL: JaguarUSF
is nearly impossible since must watch every single slow movement of every single slow unit on the map


Did you play with the "Fast Computer" settings on? This speeds up 3D view play, as well as 2D. This is found under the Options menu.. pressing M reveals the Menu. Thanks again!
Jason Petho
....


1. "Fast Computer" don't help mach in it current form
2. I suspect "Fast Computer" is buggy
Sometimes, very seldom, AI units are moving/shhoting really fast. Bur that happens less than one turn in twenty.
If this "extra fast" movement option would always working the game would be a lot more fun. As it is I usually start AI turn and switch windows into web browser, surfing the net while AI is moving. Forturnately the switching to desktop work without glitch, otherwise large battle with AI would be boring to utter unplayability.

The best solution would be option "Don't show AI movement" which would completely remove AI movement simulation. Just calculate turn and show end result.



Noakesy -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/27/2007 3:36:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomas6 No, it doesn't have astonishing graphics (when did it first come out...?) and the AI is sometimes so crap that I wish I could shoot my own officers -- especially those who have hidden at the edge of the board with their HQ (I play exclusively against the AI...). How about adding THAT option to Patch 3 [8|] ?


I used to play only against AI when I had the talonsoft version - I'm now trying my first PBEM, only a small scenario but useful to learn with. It's a much better game against a human, and who knows if you're playing on-line then that would be even better is my guess.



serg3d -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/27/2007 4:40:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomas6 How many other 10-year-old video games do people play? How many other 10-year-old games are worth remaking?

Steel Panthers ? :)



andym -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/27/2007 10:07:31 PM)

How long has Monopoly been around?Its basically the same as the day it came out!!You cant tell me that its not a Classic Game?Just as JTCS is a classic game,a case of if its not broke dont fix it!



timshin42 -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/28/2007 6:45:09 AM)

Jason,

That is the dumbest review I have ever read!  And I am sick to death of the nitpickers that are picking at your wonderful efforts!  Most of the errors, bugs, etc. that have been pointed out are things that happened in the original games, e.g. the German "Medal of Honor" in a Campaign.  I remember that happening to me years ago.

Long story short, thank you and Matrix for bring back the Campaign Series.  You love it or you don't; and I do!  Especially great is the interface (YOU) which allows serious players to give feedback, resulting in the "PATCHES".  That never existed before.

Keep up the outstanding work, and don't ever let the bastards get you down!

Best Regards 
Guess I haven't entered a signature yet.  This is TIMSHIN42  (from the EFII battle YELNIA)



maine_raptor -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/28/2007 1:01:57 PM)

I tell ya, it's reviews like this that, to paraphrase John Cleese, "what cause unrest". 

I'm a wargammer from way back (anybody remember the old SSI and Avalon Hill games with those cardboard unit markers?), and I find JTCS and it's prior versons to be one of the best computer wargames out there.  OK so it don't have all the eye candy of some of the newer games, but you know what, that can get old real fast.

I could get into a whole set of detail on problems I've had installing and running some of these newer games, but I won't.  I'll just let the fact that I bought two copies of JTCS and am in the process of rebuilding two more PC's (and will be buying 2 more copies of the game) so that I can have a 4 PC LAN setup for HvH play speak for my feelings for this game and the work of Jason and the Matrix team in bringing it back to life.

I wish there was a "Brooklyn Cheer" smilie that I could add to this messaeg as a tribute to the review.



The Rattler -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/28/2007 5:03:01 PM)

This game is simple to use to but has an excellent underlying tactical complexity like chess that makes pbem play very exciting. Years on I am still learning how to do this or that better. It Does run slower in fast mode than original sometimes for some reason. i don think too many other games allow you to be in command of a battle or whole theatre with  historical units/maps quite like this one. this game has stood the test of time and is only improving with the efforts of all at matrix and the work of some excellent scenario designers that show historical situations that you can command.



andym -> RE: Review @ Out of Eight (9/28/2007 7:03:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maine_raptor



I'm a wargammer from way back (anybody remember the old SSI and Avalon Hill games with those cardboard unit markers?), and I find JTCS and it's prior versons to be one of the best computer wargames out there. 






Ah yes i remember them well,in fact i have at current prices on the net several Hundreds of not a thousand odd Dollars worth of them Some now extremely rare!



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