AT vs TOAW3 (Full Version)

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bbmike -> AT vs TOAW3 (7/8/2007 9:46:24 PM)

How similar/different is Advanced Tactics compared to The Operational Art of War 3? I have TOAW3 and have barely tried it. This game seem sort of the same. I just downloaded and tried Peoples Tactics as some recommended on this forum. I have to say it is very addictive![:)]



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/8/2007 11:11:07 PM)

This game will be less complicated, more direct and faster turns than TOAW III. Of course those that have mastered TOAW III will say differently, but, masters are usually like that, they think if they can do it everyone else should be able to do it and love it. lol I'm waiting on this puppy. I like KISS games and this has all the makings of a KISS game and not some game that gives you headaches or takes an hour a turn. lol The historical value is there if you keep up with the AAR that is going on, except maybe in the south where it looks like the german player got a big jump and is at the gates of Stalingrad already in Dec of 41. They can tweak that though before the game is released I think and make it a bit harder for the German player to blitzkrieg to Stalingrad so fast. I'm going to highly recommend this game because VIC is a nice guy basically independent and gave us all a great FREE game before making this one.

On the other hand if you want complicated and detailed then TOAW III will probably be for you. Hell buy both of them then you can't go wrong. ;)



Ola Berli -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 12:19:20 AM)

This nice women above say it so nice that I only must agree with her [:D]



Arditi -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 12:56:20 AM)

  Much of PT's(and hence AT as it is a great improvement) complexity comes from the decisions to be made.  Tactical decisions(recon, air, ground, etc), reinforcement(what type do I make?)and what priority objectives do I take may seem like simple decisions compared to other games, but becomes a larger/growing puzzle that delightfully becomes a brain teaser.  I like TOAW 3 and I will really like AT because I know that Vic will improve on everything(how little) that PT lacked(differing terrain, better random map generator, better play/ interface graphics and a stronger editor).  There is something about PT/hence AT that really appeals to me over other games of this genre that is hard to put my finger on.  I guess I like filling my chits/units up with tanks, infantry, air, etc. of my choice and seeing little graphic representations of the hardware(a sensory thing I bet).  I like upgrading with a research tree my tanks, etc.  I like the supply rules and how it affects readiness, etc.  I like trying to outfox my opponent by recon and quesswork what he is going to put into his chits/units to try to achieve victory.  I guess it's the "I have the power/influence" to put what I want in my units that's appealing...and Ravinhood I agree with you that Vic is a class act.  With that scenario editor we are going to see some outstanding scenarios I believe.  The only complaint I have is that it is not in my greedy little hands!  haha[:)]
Respectfully, Arditi



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 1:06:21 AM)

Yeah I agree when are we going to get the game VIC? ;) You know it's rare ole ravinhood wants to buy any game nowadays. Of course the ones I really want are still in production. lol Les Grognards from Battlefront. EIA from Matrix and now this. This isn't really something new though, but, it has talent and the kind of game I like KISS even if there are some details to it. PT was excellent, just the right mix of depth and complexity what I think most wargamers want. We just don't have that time anymore to spend days and weeks and years playing one game anymore. Let me be 12 again and I'll play and probably like WitP or TOAW's. Now, I'd rather play a game of EMPIRE than some of these wargames. Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 1:10:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ola Berli

This nice women above say it so nice that I only must agree with her [:D]


Lol, most everyone seems to like my avatar. ;) Ain't she pretty? ;) The woman of yesteryear, glamour and lace pretty in face.



Arditi -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 1:12:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)


I remember! Great games all! PT/ hence AT, in my opinion, is like Empire, but has everyting I wish Empire had at the time. Thanks for the trip back! haha[:)]
Best Regards, Arditi



Zakhal -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 1:31:06 AM)

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 2:48:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.



I agree with this...whether or not it's more "realistic" who knows and who cares, but I always had a hard time keeping focus of the big picture with TOAW. But I still like it and play it occasionally...



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 9:29:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.


Exactly and it's why games like Panzer General and EMPIRE as so popular. They are KISS games, play fast and easy and very hard to lose focus unless you save the game and try to pick it up say oh a year later. lol They really should rename it: Advanced Tactics There and Back again. lol



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 4:50:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW

For me the problem with toaw is that its too hard to try to put all those hundreds of gamepieces into your head and only see the results AFTER planning EVERY move of EVERY piece on the board. Its way too easy too loose focus (forget what the whole big picture was) when it takes like a good part of an hour to set them all.

In games like panzer general etc you get results instantly so you never loose focus.


Exactly and it's why games like Panzer General and EMPIRE as so popular. They are KISS games, play fast and easy and very hard to lose focus unless you save the game and try to pick it up say oh a year later. lol They really should rename it: Advanced Tactics There and Back again. lol



Alright that's enough! What in God's name is a KISS game?



Westheim -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 5:04:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TPM

Alright that's enough! What in God's name is a KISS game?



I believe I read that in context with some other freeware game (Battle for Wesnoth?). I think it meant "Keep it stupid simple" or something like that. And I may be totally wrong with this ...



balsampear -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 5:45:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

They belong to different category:

IGOUGO
Panzer General
Decisive Battles
Advanced tactics

WEGO
TOAW



TOAW is not WEGO,Just IGOUGO



Vic -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 5:55:00 PM)

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.



Zakhal -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 6:13:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: balsampear
TOAW is not WEGO,Just IGOUGO


True. For som weird reason it just feels more like WEGO. Its IGOUGO but with WEGO elements like heavy amount of planning before seeing any results.



bbmike -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/9/2007 9:18:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.


Good news! But I wouldn't really call Peoples Tactics simple either. I just lost my first game![:'(]



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 12:59:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arditi

  Much of PT's(and hence AT as it is a great improvement) complexity comes from the decisions to be made.  Tactical decisions(recon, air, ground, etc), reinforcement(what type do I make?)and what priority objectives do I take may seem like simple decisions compared to other games, but becomes a larger/growing puzzle that delightfully becomes a brain teaser.  I like TOAW 3 and I will really like AT because I know that Vic will improve on everything(how little) that PT lacked(differing terrain, better random map generator, better play/ interface graphics and a stronger editor).  There is something about PT/hence AT that really appeals to me over other games of this genre that is hard to put my finger on.  I guess I like filling my chits/units up with tanks, infantry, air, etc. of my choice and seeing little graphic representations of the hardware(a sensory thing I bet).  I like upgrading with a research tree my tanks, etc.  I like the supply rules and how it affects readiness, etc.  I like trying to outfox my opponent by recon and quesswork what he is going to put into his chits/units to try to achieve victory.  I guess it's the "I have the power/influence" to put what I want in my units that's appealing...and Ravinhood I agree with you that Vic is a class act.  With that scenario editor we are going to see some outstanding scenarios I believe.  The only complaint I have is that it is not in my greedy little hands!  haha[:)]
Respectfully, Arditi


Absolutely agree with you Arditi...I've said a bunch of times in other posts, but there is a simple eloquence to the game (PT I'm talking about, I'm assuming AT) that I really find appealing. The game is just complicated enough to keep you interested, but simple enough to allow to actually PLAY the damn thing instead of learning a bunch of rules and concepts...anyway, yeah, can't wait to get this one.



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 1:01:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arditi


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Ahhh EMPIRE one of the greatest computer games in history and look how old it is. And WARLORDS another great game in history and it's pretty old also. Went out and bought a damn Amiga 500 just to play that game. lol Then came SWORD of ARAGON and the command decision WATERLOO game with colorful blocks for units. ROMANCE of the 3 KINGDOMS....<sigh> the good ole days. ;)


I remember! Great games all! PT/ hence AT, in my opinion, is like Empire, but has everyting I wish Empire had at the time. Thanks for the trip back! haha[:)]
Best Regards, Arditi



EXACTLY! I loved empire, but there was so much NOT there, that finally I grew tired of it...this game is the fullfillment of what Empire could have been...



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 1:05:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vic

to be honest Advanced Tactics is not THAT simple. It is actually more complex then its predecessor Peoples Tactics.


I can see from the screenshots that there is a bit more there...but it also looks like the core of PT is there...and this is a VERY GOOD THING. I remember when talk of PT2 started, all I kept thinking was, "Man I hope they don't go and ruin this perfect game..."



Awac835 -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 1:40:53 AM)

AT looks very good. I myself was excitet when TOAW was released by matrix. I bought it to. But have to admit it was to confusing also the UI would have been ok 15 years ago. But today it just have to be more streamlined. The new Harpoon ANW has the same problem imo. Great gameplay but dammit the interface is to clumsy to handle for me anyway.

AT i hope will have a good UI with lots of hotkeys. Second it looks like its actualy more of a game worty of comparison with the DB series then TOAW.
For me DB is the current king of wargames. KP was good. But BiN blew me away. Hopefully AT can give some good competition.



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 6:25:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awac835

AT looks very good. I myself was excitet when TOAW was released by matrix. I bought it to. But have to admit it was to confusing also the UI would have been ok 15 years ago. But today it just have to be more streamlined. The new Harpoon ANW has the same problem imo. Great gameplay but dammit the interface is to clumsy to handle for me anyway.

AT i hope will have a good UI with lots of hotkeys. Second it looks like its actualy more of a game worty of comparison with the DB series then TOAW.
For me DB is the current king of wargames. KP was good. But BiN blew me away. Hopefully AT can give some good competition.


Don't want to hijack the thread, maybe you can private email me, but I want to know: is BiN that much better than Korsun Pocket? I'm asking 'cause I've got KP and I've always been debating whether or not I should get one of the others. Thanks!



balsampear -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 7:50:49 AM)

BII better than BIN better than KP



TPM -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 7:59:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: balsampear

BII better than BIN better than KP


But how much better? Not trying to get too particular, but is there a really noticeable difference between BiI and KP?



balsampear -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 8:29:12 AM)

My English is very poor[X(]........Please click:http://ssg.com.au/forums/



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/10/2007 8:58:12 PM)

Battles in Italy is better than Battles in Normandy or Korsun pocket because of the added scenarios and mods that people have made for it. Don't know why Battles in Italy became so much more popular (probably because there's not that many Italian front games out there and it was the 3rd in the sequel so had to have more props and tweaks). At any rate you get more for your $$ getting Battles In Italy vs Korsun or Battles in Normandy.

As far as what KISS means it's KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID made up to tell developers that most gamers don't want these complicated nightmares like TOAW or WITP with all the numbers and sub numbers and sub numbers of the numbers sub. I hate a game that has 3 popup windows you need to go thru to see what kind of power you have or much of this or that you have or need. Just give me a damn number and let me attack with it. One number is all you need you don't need 10 bazillion numbers to have a combat. This game looks like you fill a core counter with relative units of different types and the game does the rest. We don't have to actually go inside each unit every turn to figure out it's strength do we VIC? I mean the numbers we see on the outside represent the units strength right? We don't really need to know if it's 1st division or 2000th division or what it's movement factor is vs this or that do we VIC?. The game tells us how far it can move when we click on it isn't that right VIC? ;) Some sort of shade on the maps shows how far it can move? And when we go into a battle it shows the odds right VIC? ;) hehe At any rate if it's not much more complicated than Peoples Tactics then it will be fine. It doesn't look that much more complicated from reading the aar's and listening to Vic and Twiller go on about it. Then again I might be having expectations of something SIMPLE STUPID and VIC has made a nightmare of a game. lol We'll just have to wait and see from the DEMO VIC is going to make RIGHT VIC? hehe



Ola Berli -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/11/2007 1:30:42 AM)

Sure this beautiful woman now everything about a KISS [:D]



ravinhood -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/13/2007 1:48:19 AM)

Vic is not answering my questions??!!



freeboy -> RE: AT vs TOAW3 (7/13/2007 3:40:47 AM)

Well, BiI vs Bin?? there are aboutthe same number of free scenarios... BUT there are some changes to the game engine in BII. As to fun factor.. both are a bit light on the AI, but make great pbem games.
BNakc to TOAW3, seems like comparing two very different animals. One is the Very complex, not too hard just does allot, supplies ,weather, rail winter pesditlaence etc... lots canm be modded in the events editor and comes in at a hefty 300 plus scenarios.
AT the other hand seems to be going the easier, more abstracted and simpler way ala commander etc. This is not a criticism, this game looks like it could be a great game, and if it has a decent ai we will see! Most games like this are to simple to give the ai any chance... and get relagated to two player status pbem etc.. again we will see. Looks promising though![8D]



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