RE: 'stuffing' the border (Full Version)

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Cheesehead -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 3:56:03 PM)

quote:

I just want to let you know that the stuff is alive and well. It effectively removes the chance of doing Barb 41.


I agree with you on this, Justin. I think the Stuff rule is important for 1940 Barbs, which are rare, but stuffing in 1941 is just unrealistic. It creates a game that is likely to end in 1941. PBEM games only makes the issue worse because the Russians usually can see what the German chits look like. When I play USSR I usually make it clear to my opponents that I won't attempt to stuff in 1941. I recommend this gentlemens agreement before starting a game... call it a house rule.

Cheers

John



BallyJ -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 5:36:40 PM)

Only if you can see the chit?



paulderynck -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 5:56:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Paul, what he means is Italian troops take part in the attacks on Lodz and Warsaw and occupy those cities, thus giving the credit to Italy for the conquest. So at least some of the hexes that would be on the common border are now Italian hexes and are no longer part of the common border (to be part of the common border between Germany and USSR Axis-controlled hexes must be German-controlled hexes as per 9.5).

The partition line is in fact the irrelevant factor in this case as what matters is Italian hexes are now adjacent to USSR hexes, allowing the Italians to enter USSR territory, ZoC units if they are stacked up front and ground strike others in the event that the USSR is trying to stuff.

Gamey but legal per the rules.

To quote the relevant passage:

quote:

Your common border with another major power consists of every hex you (or your aligned minor countries) control within 3 hexes and/or hexdots of a hex controlled by the other major power (or its aligned minor countries). [Emphasis mine.]


For the Axis, 'you' is Germany when discussing the Germany-USSR non-aggression pact. Italy doesn't count, nor do Italian hexes in Poland lined up against USSR hexes.

Christopher you are missing the point. AXIS units may not cross the partition line. Read 19.5 (not 9.5). Even if Italian hexes border on USSR hexes they are still on the other side of the partition line. When at war with Russia, how do they attack or ground strike without crossing the partition line?

The partition line exists as a result of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and is not magically erased by having a hex on the other side controlled by Italy.

Edit: The Italian ZOCs would extend but what Russian would be dumb enough seeing them there to not put his garrison units two hexes back?



micheljq -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 6:11:30 PM)

This discussion has been going over and over, on and on, on the Yahoo forum for over than a year if I am correct. [>:]



lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 6:16:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

This discussion has been going over and over, on and on, on the Yahoo forum for over than a year if I am correct. [>:]


Yes, and as Hakon pointed out the math is pretty well, defined. It all comes down to chits and to Germany being able to have much more than twice what Russia has.
And the possible counters are also know: Italians in Lithuania, or Italians conquering Hungary.... both very weird. [I thought IT in Poland was one, but I stand corrected]

CBV and the new surrender rule between JP and USSR helps somewhat, but Russia still has a great chance to stuff if it tries.



paulderynck -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 6:16:56 PM)

Actually the discovery of the "Partition Line effect" (or rediscovery) is relatively recent over on the Yahoo forum. As for stuffing and Super Balbo and how to keep Russia alive after a 41 Barb - yes it has been discussed a great deal. But that is the title of this thread, n'est pas?



rkr1958 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 6:33:42 PM)

I never played WIF before so pardon the elementary question.  Also, I've read through this thread and if I missed it I apologize but could someone explain in layman's terms with stuffing is and why it prevents Germany from successfully invading Russian in June 1941.



Extraneous -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 6:35:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

(1) This just plain won't work. 19.5 says: "Axis units may not cross the partition line after the USSR exercises its rights unless Germany and the USSR are at war." So Russia claims East Poland on Impulse 2 and the "common border" for the neutrality pact has nothing to do with it. The Partition Line has everything to do with it. Italian land units and air units cannot cross it. So they have to move or fly south through Rumania or north through Lithuania to get at the Russians.

(2) So then Russia claims the Baltic States and Germany aligns Rumania and the common border rule then says Italians must teleport out of any hexes within 3 hexes of the Russian border the instant Italy DoWs Russia. And all those hexes become uncrossable for Italian air units.

(3) Plus Italy will have a very tough time taking out Poland by itself. Any help from Germany with that which results in German controlled hexes in West Poland will create problems for Italy due to the common border. But this is just a minor irritation compared to the Partition Line rule.



The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

(1) True, once 19.5.1 is exercised Axis units cannot cross the partition line until Germany and the USSR are at war.

The USSR cannot claim Eastern Poland until the 2nd impulse as per 9. Declaring war.

I hope the Axis has captured Lodz and Warsaw. Because when 19.5.1 is exercised the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes and Germany cannot have units in East Prussia, in Lodz, or adjacent to or in Warsaw.

Rumania is a neutral minor country Italy can’t enter a hex controlled by a neutral minor country.


(2) True, the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes again.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR then Germany may want to rethink aligning Rumania to keep the USSR “Garrison value” down and therefore enhance their chance to break the neutrality pact.



(3) Even though Germany and Italy co-operate the soonest Italy may DoW Poland is on the 2nd impulse and start moving toward Poland.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR on the 2nd impulse and the Axis has not captured Lodz and Warsaw there is no way for the Axis to conquer Poland.

On the plus side Germany should have a fairly large “Garrison value” to break the neutrality pact.





But the Italians can fly around the partition line once the USSR occupies the Baltic States. If Germany aligns Rumania then Rumania can be flown over by the Italians.

But you might not want to because then the USSR can break the neutrality pact.

quote:

Enemy aircraft
You can break a neutrality pact you have with a major power during a friendly declaration of war step if:
after you entered into the pact, an aircraft controlled by a major power you are at war with has flown a mission against a hex or unit you control; and
that aircraft started its mission in a hex controlled by the major power you have the pact with.





lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 7:00:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

(1) True, once 19.5.1 is exercised Axis units cannot cross the partition line until Germany and the USSR are at war.

The USSR cannot claim Eastern Poland until the 2nd impulse as per 9. Declaring war.

I hope the Axis has captured Lodz and Warsaw. Because when 19.5.1 is exercised the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes and Germany cannot have units in East Prussia, in Lodz, or adjacent to or in Warsaw.

Rumania is a neutral minor country Italy can’t enter a hex controlled by a neutral minor country.


Actually, once Russia claims East Poland, the German units West of the Partition line are unaffected. The only units which are prohibited from entering the pact area, are units at war with one of the power owning the common border. In this case: Italy.


quote:

(2) True, the 3 hex and/or 3 hexdot common border changes again.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR then Germany may want to rethink aligning Rumania to keep the USSR “Garrison value” down and therefore enhance their chance to break the neutrality pact.


The alignement of Rumania actually bring around 10 points of garrison to the Germans I believe (in 41). But at the expense of allowing the Russians to stuff from a much safer place (not East Poland). Therefore, there are cases when aligning Rumania might be desirable, even required, and others where it should not be done.



quote:

(3) Even though Germany and Italy co-operate the soonest Italy may DoW Poland is on the 2nd impulse and start moving toward Poland.

If 19.5.1 is exercised by the USSR on the 2nd impulse and the Axis has not captured Lodz and Warsaw there is no way for the Axis to conquer Poland.

On the plus side Germany should have a fairly large “Garrison value” to break the neutrality pact.


See answer to your point above. German units can always enter their own pact area.
I agree that Germany shoud have a large enough garrison to be able to declare war on Russia. But as it stands, if Russia decides to stuff, Germany will be very hard pressed to get what it needs.


quote:

But the Italians can fly around the partition line once the USSR occupies the Baltic States. If Germany aligns Rumania then Rumania can be flown over by the Italians.

But you might not want to because then the USSR can break the neutrality pact.


Actually Italian planes could not fly accross the Rumanian - Russian border as they are prohibited to enter the common border area if they are at war with USSR.
The rule you mentioned would be if Italy were to fly units from Germany... for exemple, long range bombers or Navs accross the Baltic to go hit targets in Lithuania.... or accross the Black Sea to hit targets in the Ukraine.

Not very practical, and can only be done with very few planes, and on a very limited area.
At this point, the threat of Russia breaking the pact is a non issue, as a broken pact is exactly what is expected from that tactic.

In order to use IT planes to GS Russians on the border, the best way is to have IT conquer Lithuania or Hungary.
To take out Hungary, have IT DoW in SO39 on impulse 3. Hungary has to be aligned by France or CW, and so Germany will also be at war with Hungary. Have them kill the hungarian units, but not enter the capital, then when IT is active have them rail a unit nearby and have IT take the capital and conquer the country.
Now IT has a common border with Russia from which to ZOC and GS Russians in late MA41 or in MJ41.

Jerome



Zorachus99 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 7:25:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

I never played WIF before so pardon the elementary question.  Also, I've read through this thread and if I missed it I apologize but could someone explain in layman's terms with stuffing is and why it prevents Germany from successfully invading Russian in June 1941.


Stuffing is the term used when Russia sends nearly every unit to the German border in '41 and prevents Barbarossa from happening.

If your opponent does this, and declares war on Japan to gain access to their cheapest units to 'stuff' the border with, your chance of having a historical '41 Barbarossa are about 2%.

Interesting that DOW'ing Japan is what makes this possible. Without the DOW of Japan a 'stuff' will succeed 60%+ of the time.

There are gamey ways to improve your chances, but sending every german unit to the USSR border to find out you have been stuffed will potentially cost you Italy or France. Any attempt to keep a western garrison with any Germans sends the chance of stuffing way up.

The rule is broken. Germany cannot go historically into USSR without some crazy gaminess, unless the USSR decides to let them.

Ask any Russian player, would they prefer Barb to start in '41 or '42?

If you can't do barb '41 in Wif there are only two real strategies left. No guesswork left for the allies on what the axis objective is...

The fact that the historical outcome which was delayed by Greece and Yugo is near impossible until some magical force goes away in J/F 42. It makes for an extremely poor simuation.

On the other hand, some people defend the stuff because they believe that USSR dies 90% if you let Barb happen. I've never seen these claims substatiated, but that would be another major problem with the game if true.



brian brian -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 8:10:25 PM)

The 'stuff' is commonly discussed in terms of whether it prevents the Germans from declaring war on May/Jun 1941. I think analysis needs to go beyond that point...the stuff will not permanently keep the Germans from declaring the war. The question is, on which turn will the teeter-totter tip the German way? True, maybe they are shut down in May/Jun. But what happens if they draw two '4' chits that turn, the Russians draw a '1', and two new German MECH and a half-dozen INF arrive as Jul/Aug reinforcements? Did the stuff still work then?

Also, building air is cost-effective, for the Russians at least, in that they can build a 2 BP pilot and put it in each of their antique planes they start with for a 2 BP garrison point. Not the most cost-effective use of pre-war Russian BP to be sure, but if you can get your opponent to surrender in 1941 via a successful stuff...

The stuff prevents what is an extremely powerful Axis strategy that they did not try in real life, but is a common posit of history analyses...what if the Germans completely ignored the Mediterranean and instead hired the Italians as another ally to invade Russia with, but on a much more massive scale than real life? This is the type of Operation Barbarossa where people bemoan Russia's doomed fate. This is not a historical Barbarossa, where a lot of German resources were in the Med (Luftwaffe strength in the Med was at 2000 air-frames during several critical phases of Barbarossa) and fighting the Battle of the Atlantic. If the Axis build on a single-minded goal of invading Russia and even evacuate Libya rather than reinforcing it, of course they should do much better in Russia than historically.



Nikolai II -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 8:16:42 PM)

So, the only way to get a historical '41 barbarossa is to explore extremely gamey solutions?

Bleh.

Is there any optional rule that says "garrison rule doesn't apply to Germany" for Barbarossa purposes? It seems as if that would be a very useful addition. Just call it "Hitler underestimates the strength of the Russian army" and it seems like the historical option ;)



rkr1958 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 8:23:09 PM)

Thanks. So this strategy will "succeed" 98% of the time if Russia declares war on Japan and 60%+ of the time if they don't. The fact that the border stuffing strategy chances of success approach near certainty when Russia goes to war with Japan versus remaining neutral seems counter intuitive to me.

By "succeed" do you mean that Russia will survive or that the Allies will win? If the latter then it would seem that after a while you'd only want to play games against Russian opponents who agreed not to employ this surefire strategy.



Cheesehead -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 9:06:15 PM)

quote:

By "succeed" do you mean that Russia will survive or that the Allies will win? If the latter then it would seem that after a while you'd only want to play games against Russian opponents who agreed not to employ this surefire strategy


Exactly....unless the Axis player prefers to go to Spain and Gibralter in '41. Most of the European players seem to prefer this strategy, anyway. Maybe they decided this was the only way to approach Axis strategy since the stuff is so devastating to the Germans if they try to break it and fail in '41.

I would also agree that unless there is bad weather and short turns during the summer and fall turns of '41 and '42, Russia is most likely knocked off the European map from a '41 Barb. But using the stuff rule to fix this debatable problem is like quitting smoking by getting lung cancer.

Cheers

John



paulderynck -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 9:42:46 PM)

I have stuffed successfully in my last two games and the Germans attacked in JF42.

In the first one they drove the Russians off the European map except for the Caucasus and a pocket around Leningrad. But they made mistakes with Japan and ended up badly beaten as of JA45.

The second one is in progress and the Russians are holding a line from Yaroslavl to Rostov. Japan is in big trouble again. But US entry was late and Gibraltar fell, so the Axis may be able to hang in there and win with more than 14 objectives at game end. It will be a close run thing.

I have seen about 8 WiFFE games with 41 Barbs and the Axis won every one of them. It may well be that a 41 Barb means a likely Axis win and a 42 Barb means a likely Allied win. It may well be that rules could be improved to fix this issue. But even with the current rules, players can agree not to stuff and can adjust the objective levels required for victory. In the "pure" form of the game, players are supposed to bid for victory levels before commencing so that is the ultimate way to balance things with the current rules set.

All the games I've played were exciting, enjoyable contests with the final outcome in doubt until at least mid-44, if not longer. That is sufficient fun for me, I don't need to duplicate what the Germans did in 1941 or what the Allies did in 1944, for that matter, I just want to play an interesting, challenging, exciting game, - and I did.




morgil -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/20/2009 11:49:30 PM)

If Germany can not attack USSR in 41 there are plenty other things they could do.
A focused effort on the German side can really cripple the CW economy, and there are plenty other countries to attack besides the USSR, like Turkey and on to the Middle east, Norway, Ireland for sheets'n'giggles, Portugal together with Japan, and that takes care of Southafrica, and 6 resources cut off from CW.
Condors in the North Atlantic and Færøys Gap can make for interesting convoychains..

What you seem to forget is the rock, paper, scissors structure of WiF, for every action there is a counteraction, example from latest game; CW takes a land impulse to rearrange the polish units and uses the HQ to flip up the units in Lodz, and Gues 'Muahaha' when the weather turns to rain, upon which Germany takes a navel and sinks 7 CP and damages several cruisers. Haha indeed.



BallyJ -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/21/2009 3:01:10 AM)

I continue to be amazed that this great game continues to survive if it is as "BROCKEN" as you say????



Zorachus99 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/21/2009 4:09:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

quote:

I just want to let you know that the stuff is alive and well. It effectively removes the chance of doing Barb 41.


I agree with you on this, Justin. I think the Stuff rule is important for 1940 Barbs, which are rare, but stuffing in 1941 is just unrealistic. It creates a game that is likely to end in 1941. PBEM games only makes the issue worse because the Russians usually can see what the German chits look like. When I play USSR I usually make it clear to my opponents that I won't attempt to stuff in 1941. I recommend this gentlemens agreement before starting a game... call it a house rule.

Cheers

John


This is clearly what must be done at the beginning of a game.



Zorachus99 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/21/2009 4:14:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99


quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

3) Surrender as Japan and thus remove all the MIL, wasting the USSR build points. You would want to do this in M/A.



This option is not in MWif

I am not sure what you mean by surrender.[&:] If you are referring to the the ability of the USSR or Japan to force a mutual peace under certain conditions, then that is part of MWIF (though not coded yet).


some erratta allows Japan to surrender Manchuria thereby making USSR at peace. This causes all Mil to be moved to the forcepool to be placed as reserves when USSR becomes active. This is some new annual rule some such. I'm sure Patrice or others know it.

It's not RAW, so I'm pretty sure it's not in MWIF.



lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/21/2009 5:54:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BallyJ

I continue to be amazed that this great game continues to survive if it is as "BROCKEN" as you say????


Well, the question we should ask ourselve, is why we see so little stuffs in 41?
Because once one look at the math objectively, it seems to me that the chance of Russia stuffing are greater than the chance of Russia surviving AND coming back in force from a 41 Barb.
I would venture three possibilities:
1) The Russian player did not do the math and consider that the chance of stuffing are too low.
2) The Russian player does not want to have to wait until 42 or 43 to fight.
3) Group traditions. Each group of player falls into "standard"practices.

But really when looking at it objectively, Germany is rellying on a good amount of chance to be able to break the pact.
For Germany to be able to launch a 41 Barb it needs to do the following:
1) Abandon all hope of even a limited BoA.
2) Limit his air force by putting on the map all its crappy reserve planes, and only building F2 and L2 (ok the last part is not a big hardhip).
3) Build all its garrison efficient units (MIL, GAR) which of course are not the best suited for a Barb.
4) Bring to the border almost all this units, leaving the garrison of the West almost exclusively to the Italians.

Germany also should be playing with City Base Volunteers which add 7 points of garrison.

And then the following must happen:
1) Germany must take limited losses in Poland and France.
2) Germany must be getting significantly above twice the number of chits then the Russian player (some being hidden and unknown).

So, Germany is rellying on factors that are mostly out of its control (die roll on attacks and air combat in France, chit pulled).

So, if you are playing Germany and the Russian player is a potential "stuffer", what are your choices:

1) You prepare for Babr, evaluate the situation in SO40 and either pursue, if your losses were small and your chits good. But even then you are not certain of the end resul, as you are still relient on the chit draws of ND, JF and MA.
2) You switch to a different strategy. At this point, you have lost the SeaLion option. You have lost the strong BoA option, but you can still go after Gibraltar.

So, what Justin is saying and Hakon too, is that in light of all this, it would seem more reasonable for Germany to start planning on a 41 Med / 42 Barb from the start as this is much more efficient than having to switch mid course.

This does not mean that 41 Barb will not happen. But the Russian player is the one leading the dance in this case. In a 41 Med / 42 Barb, the German is leading the dance.

Is the game broken? I don't know if that qualifies as broken.
Is the stuff a sure thing? No, but it is if the German player follows "historical" german builds (some subs, some troops to help Italyin N.Africa)

Now, of course the rules allow for conditions in which the German player can plan from the start for considerably increase its chances of success in breaking the pact. But those actions must be taken at the very begining:
1) Have IT DoW Lithuania and/Or Hungary.
2) Have IT give its build points to Germany so that Germany can increase its garrison. But IT will have to defend the west with very limited ressources, and I am not sure if the solution would be worse than the problem.

Well, the point of all this. If the Russian and German player both have done the math and a rational analysis of the stuff situation and probabilities, then most if not all game should follow a Med or Sealion strategy.

Jerome



lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/21/2009 6:05:34 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

If Germany can not attack USSR in 41 there are plenty other things they could do.
A focused effort on the German side can really cripple the CW economy, and there are plenty other countries to attack besides the USSR, like Turkey and on to the Middle east, Norway, Ireland for sheets'n'giggles, Portugal together with Japan, and that takes care of Southafrica, and 6 resources cut off from CW.
Condors in the North Atlantic and Færøys Gap can make for interesting convoychains..

What you seem to forget is the rock, paper, scissors structure of WiF, for every action there is a counteraction, example from latest game; CW takes a land impulse to rearrange the polish units and uses the HQ to flip up the units in Lodz, and Gues 'Muahaha' when the weather turns to rain, upon which Germany takes a navel and sinks 7 CP and damages several cruisers. Haha indeed.




Morgil, you are at the heart of the problem.
There are plenty of things Germany can do instead of a 41 Barb. And those have good chances of success. The problem is: at which point does Germany goes for those strategies?
Germany must decide at the latest with the build phase of SO40.But by then it is already too late to build a strong sub fleet. It is already too late to build a large bomber phase to strat bomb England. It is too late to build ships for SeaLion.
It is not too late to invase Turkey, settle the balkans if not yet settled. But of course you can still go after spain / Portugal / gibraltar, because you have time to build the necessary units in time.

On the other hand, if you wait until MJ 41 to see if you can break the stuff and realize that you indeed can't (it was close and you failed), then you have no more options but the balkans one. To late to hurt the CW in any significant fashion.

So, yes there are option for Germany beside a Barb 41. But Germany, to be successfull at it, must decide way before the result of the stuff is certain (if it prepared for a 41 Barb).

Basically the cost /benefit analysis dictates, that Germany should not try and push a stuff against Russia if its chits are not superb, and/or he took heavy losses in Poland / France.

Jerome



morgil -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 9:24:23 AM)

So when does it become obvious that USSR is attempting a stuffing of the border ? Considering that they have to DOW Japan, and wage a halfhearted war, build GAR, MIL and and ship them to the border along with their flying junk, I would assume this to be pretty early. Maybe one of you who has done this can tell us the numbers, and timing involved.
Also it would be pretty nice to see what would happen if Germany was to abandon Barbarossa altogether and do a Sitzkrieg.
You that can do the numbers, what would happen if in 42, instead of DOWing USSR, Germany would apply its own stuffing, and prevent the war from taking place, how long would it be before USSR could be certain to manage a DOW ? Some time in 43 im sure ?

It would make for a pretty boring war, but hey if nobody dies its a good war, right ? [;)]



brian brian -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 3:57:59 PM)

I don't think the Russians necessarily have to start a war with Japan and build the MIL to successfully stuff. Some might disagree; I fully support the new Russo/Japan optional peace and always play with it now. Also as I mentioned earlier, it in part depends on how you define a successful 'stuff' ... is it only a success if you completely prevent a DoW until 1942? What about Sep/Oct 41? Is it a success if you force the Germans to build nothing but garrison efficient units and put the vast majority of them on the eastern front, giving the CW much more freedom of action to say, build a big northern convoy line and deploy a BEF-Russia when the time comes, but then the Russians lose most of the pre-war units?

The sitzkrieg option is the flip side of this coin for sure. I'd gladly trade a no-41-stuff for a German promise for a no-43-sitz. The end-game in WiF is boring compared to the beginning and middle, particularly if there are several hundred counters in central Poland. I'd rather face a 41 Barb as the Russians, any time, I'm not afraid of that.



rkr1958 -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 6:01:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

So when does it become obvious that USSR is attempting a stuffing of the border ? Considering that they have to DOW Japan, and wage a halfhearted war, build GAR, MIL and and ship them to the border along with their flying junk, I would assume this to be pretty early. Maybe one of you who has done this can tell us the numbers, and timing involved.
Also it would be pretty nice to see what would happen if Germany was to abandon Barbarossa altogether and do a Sitzkrieg.
You that can do the numbers, what would happen if in 42, instead of DOWing USSR, Germany would apply its own stuffing, and prevent the war from taking place, how long would it be before USSR could be certain to manage a DOW ? Some time in 43 im sure ?

It would make for a pretty boring war, but hey if nobody dies its a good war, right ? [;)]


So maybe a threat of a boring game on the eastern Front (i.e., Sitzkrieg on the Russian Front) is the counter to the border stuff. Personally, I rather go down playing an interesting and fun game than win playing a passive and dull game.



Skanvak -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 9:49:41 PM)

Wahou, when we played it 20 years ago, we thought it was obvious that the garrison rule applied only to Russia to compell it to respect the pact and allow an historical French campaign. So we played it as if Germany can declare war when it wants.

Does the rules changed that much?



lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 10:05:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skanvak

Wahou, when we played it 20 years ago, we thought it was obvious that the garrison rule applied only to Russia to compell it to respect the pact and allow an historical French campaign. So we played it as if Germany can declare war when it wants.

Does the rules changed that much?


Yes, 20 years ago was the 4th Edition of the game I think (it is when I first played the game), and you are correct in that the garrison ration only applied to the Russians. There were no pact chits eithe, it was a straight garrison ratio based on units present.
Germany could always declare war at will.

Jerome



michaelbaldur -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/22/2009 11:03:41 PM)

when I play USSR. I just allow Germany to dow in 41 .....

it will give USSR a year of x2 production .(we played with Hitlers war option)... and Germany won´t do some scazy things .... like Gibratar or uk ..... or suez ....

then USSR just take the beating for the allied ....

if you wait for 42 .... you will face a must stronger germany .... and you have produced only a little in 41 vs the big german productions

42 barbarossa just give more beating to USSR ....



WarHunter -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/23/2009 8:31:59 AM)

To stuff or not to stuff, that is the question. Whether the German player approves or not, it is a choice that cannot be held against anyone who plays the soviet. We have a rules set that has been revised over the years. Anyone remember when HQ units could be loaded into air transports and flown forward during mud weather. When mud shutdown HQ movement. That was a bad time to be the soviet player.

The flow of the game beginning to about mid-game is with the axis, but like the tide, sooner or later the allies get a chance to control the flow. The stuff is just a facet of control. The german player who lets the stuff control his choices, is lost and without hope. The only real question that matters at that point. Will the german player man up and go to the bunker, or just quit, for that is where the game is headed.



lavisj -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/23/2009 3:42:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

To stuff or not to stuff, that is the question. Whether the German player approves or not, it is a choice that cannot be held against anyone who plays the soviet.


Agreed, if both sides did not house rule the stuff, then it is only fair for the USSR to use the stuffing option as a strategy.
Then you would have no issue with IT DoW Hungary in order to make sure that Germany can break the pact in 41.

quote:

The flow of the game beginning to about mid-game is with the axis, but like the tide, sooner or later the allies get a chance to control the flow. The stuff is just a facet of control.


So, really the german player looses control of the flow as soon as Russia starts to stuff, provided Russia is, like in most cases, able to stuff with good chances.

quote:

The german player who lets the stuff control his choices, is lost and without hope. The only real question that matters at that point. Will the german player man up and go to the bunker, or just quit, for that is where the game is headed.


Well, the German player does not have a choice. The stuff does control its choices, because of its consequences. Although I am uncertain to the fate of a Germany that failed to break the pact and spent 41 not doing much (I will know after our current game), I would venture that in most cases, the prospects aren't good.
[For the moment I only have 1 data point].

Jerome



Cheesehead -> RE: 'stuffing' the border (10/23/2009 6:34:33 PM)

quote:

Agreed, if both sides did not house rule the stuff, then it is only fair for the USSR to use the stuffing option as a strategy.
Then you would have no issue with IT DoW Hungary in order to make sure that Germany can break the pact in 41.


Jerome, could you explain how that works, as far as helping GE break the pact in '41? Also, is IT DOWing Lithuania still an option? I thought that it was decided that IT cannot cross the GE/USSR border until GE and USSR are at war. Therefore, IT cannot put USSR units in enemy ZOC unless they are adjacent to Lithuanian border.

Thanks

John



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