Sub vs Sub possible?? (Full Version)

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HansenII -> Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 5:26:19 PM)

Hi everybody!
Does anybody ever noticed a sub vs sub combat in WITP??
I have just seen a table of ships sunk by torpedoes in WWII and (again) got aware of quite a few sub vs sub kills at least in the European / atlantic theater.
So far, I have never ever noticed something like sub vs sub combat in WITP (I once had a DD torpedoing and sinking a IJN sub, thought).
Is this not part of the game mechanics?
Might this be different in CHS (I am still playing stock, never seem to have time to install CHS...).

Thanx[sm=Cool-049.gif]for some advice



witpqs -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 6:05:45 PM)

IIRC, it is there in WITP but it is rare. That's probably accurate (just a semi-educated guess), as it was a bit tough to do and the subs have to be in the same hex.

I recall reading that in the European theater the Brits actively used their subs to hunt u-boats, particularly by ambushing them around the u-boats own bases.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 6:09:50 PM)

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think sub vs sub combat is modeled at all in witp. If it is then it would be a surface engagement. In the several hundred turns I have played I haven't personally seen a sub vs sub, though I have seen a sub vs just about everything else including PTs.



witpqs -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 6:15:57 PM)

What I am thinking is that it is modeled as submerged versus surfaced, which is how it actually happened (at least the vast majority of the time). There were threads about this quite some time ago. Anyone remember if there was definitive information presented?



mjk428 -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 7:01:11 PM)

Sub vs Sub is something that's been requested since Uncommon Valor was in development. So unless it was quietly added in a patch, there's no Sub vs Sub in the game - at least not intentionally.



dpstafford -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 7:40:26 PM)

I have played thousands of turns and have never seen even one sub on sub action. And given the technology of WWII era subs, I don't even see how it could happen except by some extreme fluke. For that reason I do not want to see it "modeled" in WITP or UV.



Boozecamp -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 8:48:40 PM)

Well, considering that 16 IJN subs were sunk by USN subs alone in the course of the war, you could make an argument for including it.

Someone's even written a book about the whole phenomenon.



spence -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 8:59:04 PM)

quote:

I recall reading that in the European theater the Brits actively used their subs to hunt u-boats, particularly by ambushing them around the u-boats own bases.


Based on SIGINT the USN (usually) and RN set up successful ambushes for quite a few IJN subs. Neither the SIGINT nor the anti-sub ability are included in WitP (the SIGINT is there but IRL Allied commanders got more useful intel from the tea leaves in the bottom of their cups).



Yamato hugger -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 9:08:58 PM)

Japs used their subs in an ASW role as well (at least according the the skipper of the SS Barb which I consider a reliable source).



spence -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/13/2007 9:14:14 PM)

If you look at the kill ratio the Japanese submariners' efforts rate about the same as hitting a homerun in T-ball.



Rybeck -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/14/2007 8:45:39 AM)

I just dreamt about a sub firing on a sub (in a Witp context) last night! Does that count [:D]



AmiralLaurent -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/14/2007 10:44:00 AM)

Despite historical evidence that tens of submarines were sunk by opposing submarines during WWII, that tens more fights between submarines were unconclusive and that it was a common tactic to use submarines to chase enemy subs (ie these battles were not chance encounter), and despite the fact that some people have asked for it for years, it is not included in the game.



seydlitz_slith -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/14/2007 10:03:31 PM)

Not modeled in witp.  If you look at the subs in the game, they have an asw rating of 0. Since a ship with an asw rating of zero can not attack a   sub on the ASW combat routine, then it is not possible in the game terms.  There may also be other hard coding that we do not know about that prevents the combat.   As such, you can also use your subs in a hex to increase your "awareness" in the hex and they will help spot enemy subs. Your ASW assets will only engage enemy subs, and not friendly subs. Something else not modelled in the game.

I wonder if subs could be made to fight by giving them a weapon device that had an asw value greater than 0?



rtrapasso -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/14/2007 11:36:19 PM)

i would THINK the way to do it is to have some sort of "roll" of the dice" to see if the unit is on the surface when another sub is in the same hex, and then if it is on the surface: treat it as a surface ship.

Allied subs historically had a much better shot at the IJN subs because they were a couple of orders magnitute quieter than the IJN vessels (and much quieter than German ones, if Friedman's book is to be believed). They also got vectored into the IJN vessels position by MAGIC and this gave them a better chance (other Allied subs, incl Dutch subs got this benefit, and nailed enemy sub(s) this way).



Yamato hugger -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/15/2007 12:14:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i would THINK the way to do it is to have some sort of "roll" of the dice" to see if the unit is on the surface when another sub is in the same hex, and then if it is on the surface: treat it as a surface ship.

Allied subs historically had a much better shot at the IJN subs because they were a couple of orders magnitute quieter than the IJN vessels (and much quieter than German ones, if Friedman's book is to be believed). They also got vectored into the IJN vessels position by MAGIC and this gave them a better chance (other Allied subs, incl Dutch subs got this benefit, and nailed enemy sub(s) this way).


Not to mention they had radar also.



Kadrin -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/15/2007 12:30:19 AM)

I know for a fact sub vs sub was in the game at one point, though they may have removed it in one of the patches.

Half the time on turn one of a Dec. 8th start (against the AI) I'd see Triton or RO-65 take shots at the other (they are in the same hex below Wake Island).

Haven't seen any other sub vs sub actions though.



rtrapasso -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/15/2007 6:45:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kadrin

I know for a fact sub vs sub was in the game at one point, though they may have removed it in one of the patches.

Half the time on turn one of a Dec. 8th start (against the AI) I'd see Triton or RO-65 take shots at the other (they are in the same hex below Wake Island).

Haven't seen any other sub vs sub actions though.



Sub vs sub was never in the game. It might have shown up as a glitch, same way as other weird things happen in this game (i.e. teleportation).



HansenII -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/16/2007 2:19:04 PM)

Hi everybody!

If I summarize, there is no sub vs. sub capability. Thanx for your contributions.

I had not really had time to leaf through the various books, but If I remember it right, most kills of sub against subs were achieved on subs running on the surface. To my knowledge, only a british T-Class and a german sub at the end of the war made successful attacks against another dived sub. The British sub by use of passive sonar (thus starting a new area...) and the german by a guided torpedo (thus also entering something new to long list of methods to kill fellow human beings).

I would really appreciate this possibity in Witp, but one has to live with compromises...[:'(]

Regards



rtrapasso -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/16/2007 3:14:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansenII

Hi everybody!

If I summarize, there is no sub vs. sub capability. Thanx for your contributions.

I had not really had time to leaf through the various books, but If I remember it right, most kills of sub against subs were achieved on subs running on the surface. To my knowledge, only a british T-Class and a german sub at the end of the war made successful attacks against another dived sub. The British sub by use of passive sonar (thus starting a new area...) and the german by a guided torpedo (thus also entering something new to long list of methods to kill fellow human beings).



i had heard/read of the British attack, and my readings said it was the only successful underwater-to-underwater attack of the war... do you have details on the German successful attack??



HansenII -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/18/2007 1:40:40 PM)

Hi Trapasso!

Unfortunately, I cannot find the source. I remember it to be in a german-language book, but since I used to sell maritime books some years ago, it might be that I did come across this book during that time and do not have it on my own.

Keep you posted if I'll find anything.

Regards



m10bob -> RE: Sub vs Sub possible?? (7/18/2007 2:04:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I could be wrong about this, but I don't think sub vs sub combat is modeled at all in witp. If it is then it would be a surface engagement. In the several hundred turns I have played I haven't personally seen a sub vs sub, though I have seen a sub vs just about everything else including PTs.



IIRC PT 73 under Commander McHale sunk several Japanese subs.
Don't know if he ever commanded a sub, never actually saw his exploits clear thru to VJ day, he may still be on New Caledonia??

[image]local://upfiles/7909/01B8FECE51794843A07B066CD16AD27E.jpg[/image]



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