If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (Full Version)

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Pandemic -> If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/17/2007 7:07:27 PM)

Correct me if I am wrong but Germany doesnt start the game at war with Belgium and so can enact different strategies?

Is Germany able to invade Denmark and Holland?
Does Britain start the game at war as part of the Entente against the Central powers or can she join in later?

I so hope this game is available for download purchase today :)



7th Somersets -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/17/2007 7:44:22 PM)

You are correct - Germany does not start the game at war with Belgium.

Germany can invade Holland.

Britain starts the game at war with Germany.

You have very many options in the game.




iamspamus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/17/2007 8:36:17 PM)

Sorry guys, I just need to bring up the fact that Britain declared war on Germany AFTER it entered Belgium. Actually, this gave the Casus Belli (reason for war) that legitimized their declaration. I mean odds are that within a year or so, the Brits would have declared war on Germany, but invading poor neutral Belgium was the impetus...

I assume that this was done for game balance, huh?
Jason

quote:

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

You are correct - Germany does not start the game at war with Belgium.

Germany can invade Holland.

Britain starts the game at war with Germany.

You have very many options in the game.






Pandemic -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/17/2007 9:53:57 PM)

yeah i was enquiring about that. maybe a first task for the modders but it does open the debate of if Germany doesnt declare war on Belgium, when would Britain have declared war on the Central powers. Also would France have invaded Germany via Belgium / Luxemburg if they get halted on the German border.



sol_invictus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/17/2007 10:04:56 PM)

The French bounced around a plan to invade Germany through Belgium, but after Plan 17 was adopted, that went by the wayside. I mentioned several times on these forums that I thought British entry into the war should be delayed a bit and random, if Germany doesn't invade Belgium. Frank was very firm in his belief that Britain would enter eventually, whether Germany invaded Belgium or not and I tend to agree. Hopefully, it can be modded in if it is not an optional rule.



SMK-at-work -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 12:50:52 AM)

to answer a point that was missed - Denmark is not in the game, so cannot be invaded.



7th Somersets -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 8:50:26 AM)

SMK - I can't remember - does Belgian neutrality affect British deployment?



Berkut -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 8:16:53 PM)

Germany not starting at war with Belgium, while Great britain starts at war with Germany, simply does not make any sense at all.

That is like starting a WW2 game with Germany not at war with Poland, but France and Britain being at war with Germany.

Britain went to war with Germany *because* of the invasion of Belgium. I could understand the game starting with Germany at war with Belgium, and Briatin and France at war with Germany. I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.

Germany not at war with Belgium, but at war with britain?

Makes no sense.



sol_invictus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 9:25:33 PM)

Berkut, I must agree.



SVal06 -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 10:28:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut

I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.


Germany declared war on France on 3rd of August and on the same time invaded Belgium (as it was their plan) --> If Germany are not on war with Belgium, it has no sense also that France and Germany are on war.

But before that, Germany declared war on Russia first as the very beginning of the story is: Autriche-Hongrie (how do you said in english? [;)]) sent an ultimatum to Serbia because of the assassination of François Ferdinand.
Russia defended Serbia (and mobilized) because they both are slavians.
Then Germany declared war on Russia, on France, Britain did the same... and we know the rest of the story [:(]

I found on my grand parents papers, some old school books from that period: 1910-1914. Some things are amazing.
For instance, some songs openly spoke about "killing germans" who were described as "barbarians", and "the duty of a good citizen was to kill Germans and die for France",.etc...
I guess it was the same thing in Germany or Britain.
Actually, I don't think it has sense to search who are on war on the beginning of the game since each big countries involved wanted a war, no matter who declared war historically [:(]
So; I guess game designers should have made some "adjustements" for gameplay, even it is historically false ;-)



sterckxe -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 10:36:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Berkut
I could understand the game starting with Germany NOT at war with Belgium, and Britainnot at war with Germany, and France and Germany at war.

Germany not at war with Belgium, but at war with britain?

Makes no sense.


John Keegan in his "The First World War" book makes it clear that up to the violation of Belgium's neutrality by Germany Britain was uncommitted - to the despair of the French.

Whether or not they'd maybe enter at some later date for some other reason is open to speculation, but at the beginning of August 1914 the only way to make Britain declare war on Germany was by Germany to invade Belgium.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



Berkut -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 10:37:05 PM)

Britain went to war with Germany as a result of the German invasion of Belgium. It is likely they would have ended up at war anyway, but not so soon.

Now, you can maybe make some arguments about all the cause and effect involved, but a good source for this game would seem to be the book it is named after, we could start by reading that.

There was a sequence of events here. Yeah, you can say that maybe Germany should not start at war with France, but then you don't have a game - although the idea is rather intriguing.

Anyway, you have to place your start point *somewhere* in the timeline.

And there does not exist a point in the historical timeline where Germany was at war with Britain but NOT invading Belgium. That point simply does not exist. I can see arguments for many different points, based on what the game is trying to accomplish. I cannot understand one for choosing a point that never existed.




sol_invictus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 11:12:02 PM)

I guess that Frank assumed that Britain would have declared war shortly after Germany and France were at war, but wanted to give Germany the option of invading Belgium; in case the player wanted to try an East Front gambit. Ideally, imo, if Germany doesn't invade Belgium, Britain's entry should be delayed a turn or two, and become increasingly likely each subsequent turn. That would add some uncertainty into the mix and would make for some good gameplay. Over a year ago, Frank did mention that he was considering a modified British entry if Germany didn't invade Belgium, but I haven't heard him or the beta testers say a thing about that since then. I imagine it was a gameplay fudge.



Berkut -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/18/2007 11:15:45 PM)

A real nice way of doing things would be to allow GB to enter, but reduce their commitment. As it was the strenght of teh BEF was reduced from pre-war plans to begin with.

This would work out ok for balance, since presumably the French would then have a shorter fron to defend.

Of course, at this point we are into the realm of game scope decisions. There are a LOT of different things you could do with this.



Pandemic -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/19/2007 12:14:48 AM)

It is of course fact that had Germany not invaded Belgium Britain would not be at war with Germany straight away / first few weeks. Britain always for hundreds of years fought wars to maintain the balance of power in Europe, especially reguarding the inavasion of 'minor' countries and maintain naval supremacy.

Germany challenged Britain on 2 areas - colonies although this wasnt a huge issue but also on capital ships and this was. However Britain also didnt want to see France / Russia dominating central Europe.

So it is somewhat difficult to speculate what happens during later 1914 had Germany not attacked 'minor' countries. Even worse if France does? By then the massive casulties may have put off British public opinion going to war against anyone.



SMK-at-work -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/19/2007 2:13:10 AM)

The British don't have much commitment anyway until mid 1915.



Bossy573 -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/19/2007 2:20:14 AM)

Could be a play balance issue as well.

It would be nice to have a "what if" scenario where Britain hangs on the fence a bit. I've read several books which contend Britain would have gone to war anyway. The issue for Britain was never Belgium, it was German dominion in Europe. Belgium just provided a fantastic excuse to get in quickly, and united.



Dirtdog20 -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/19/2007 8:31:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573

Could be a play balance issue as well.

It would be nice to have a "what if" scenario where Britain hangs on the fence a bit. I've read several books which contend Britain would have gone to war anyway. The issue for Britain was never Belgium, it was German dominion in Europe. Belgium just provided a fantastic excuse to get in quickly, and united.



Even then several members of the cabinet resigned in protest.



7th Somersets -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/19/2007 5:23:09 PM)

There was a debate about this on the beta forum. I believe that the idea behind having Britain involved at the start is that the game would otherwise be another Franco-Prussian war and not WW1.

There was some suggestion that British land deployment might be curtailed if Belgium was not invaded.
I can't remember what the outcome was in that regard.




Bossy573 -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/20/2007 2:55:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

I believe that the idea behind having Britain involved at the start is that the game would otherwise be another Franco-Prussian war and not WW1.


You have to figure the Huns roll to an easy victory without Britain in the picture.

A truly staggering "what if" as well. Germany victorious in Europe, France prostrate and irrelevant, Russia smashed, perhaps broken up, a German super-state facing a still undefeated and uncommitted Britain, the U.S. hiding behind a curtain across the pond. What a weird world that would have been......



AU Tiger_MatrixForum -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/20/2007 5:33:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573


quote:

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

France prostrate and irrelevant


How is that different?
[sm=00000622.gif]



Dirtdog20 -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/20/2007 6:05:20 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573


quote:

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

France prostrate and irrelevant


How is that different?
[sm=00000622.gif]



Dont ask the French that. They may just have to drive over some more German cars during exercises.



FrankHunter -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 3:45:09 AM)

Okay, here was my thinking on this subject that led to my decision not to make Germany start the game at war with Belgium but at war with Britain.   Early on in the design Britain started the war completely neutral.  But my reading showed that Britain and France did not start making plans for how they would conduct a war against Germany the day after Belgium was invaded.  That planning started about a decade earlier if I recall correctly.  I agree there was not an iron-clad commitment from Britain to France but it was way beyond complete and strict neutrality.  French military planning assumed the British would be there on the flank and even von Schlieffen expected British forces to come to the aid of the French although he expected them to be dealt with easily.

In my opinion, and I stress its only my opinion, Britain would have sided with France whether or not Belgium was invaded.  Belgium simply helped sell the idea to the public much faster.   Unlike Germany and France though, the British army starts the game very small and it takes some time before they are able to build up a large force.




no_dice -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 7:10:26 AM)

Hmm, it's been a while since I studied this in university (I wrote a paper on Britain's entry into the war) but a more accurate take on the situation would be that Britain is neutral with until "war is declared" but is entirely active against the High Seas Fleet the moment it leaves port. The British fleet was on annual manuevers before hostitilities took place and did not demobilize back to peace time strenght as the pre-war crisis grew. The British policy that was implemented was that they were not going to give the High Seas fleet a free hand and would have fought them had they sortied and tried anything we gamers would call sneaky.

Interesting to see if a British player could try and "Copenhagen them" - as the Huns feared - before war is formally declared in this game(Churchill was the first sea lord so I wouldn't rule it out historically).

The actual British declaration of war was near thing in the Liberal goverment cabinet. Some of the supporting documentation that I recall had the government declaring war because if they didn't the government would fall and the opposition would do so in any event. Frank's post is just about right in my opinion but I would try and limit Britain's involvement without some kind of additional provacation from Germany.

While we are on the topic of sneaky Frank can you comment on if you are going to handle the war rumor that the germans believed that 100,000 Russians had landed in scotland and were going to invade belgium autumn 1914?

No Dice



FrankHunter -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 9:55:31 AM)

Interesting that you mention the naval aspect.  It was one of the gnawing things affecting the change, how can I have the British navy be at war and contest any German naval movement while the army remains at peace until Belgium is invaded.




sol_invictus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 5:58:45 PM)

This limited war probably would have lasted until the first British sailor was killed and certainly no longer than the first British ship being sunk. I just can't imagine the policy could be maintained for very long. I can see how it would be very difficult to implemet this in a game.

Of course, this raisies the issue of what Britain would have done had Germany stayed completely on the defensive in the west and kept the fleet in port. I imagine after Russia started getting pounded and continued French calls for assisitance, Britain would have sent soldiers to the continent. This could be modelled by delaying British entry by a turn or two, or at least making it a bit random. Two truns after the war starts though, I think Britain should be a full belligerent no matter what Germany has done.



Ironclad -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 11:07:03 PM)

If Germany had opted for a sole eastern offenensive it would have presented the British Government with a horrendous dilemma.

I can't see the British Liberal Government in 1914 having the political strength/nerve to join in a conflict where France was not under immediate threat (and was actually attacking) in the face of public opinion. If the High Seas Fleet was kept in port at a low state of readiness or deployed in the eastern Baltic only this would have been the "acid" on the cake. A declaration of war would have split the Cabinet and party and I think the replacement Conservative Government would have faced the same problem of lack of public support for armed intervention.

It would have been similar to the American administration's position during the 1939-41 period - arms/war materials/loans but no troops engaged. Over time British public opinion could have been won around but that wouldn't have happened until some time into 1915 at the earliest unless German restraint slipped.

Of course the saving grace for the British Government was that the German Army leadership by 1914 had given up any possibility of such a two front strategy - not that the navy had ever adopted it. So maybe it is unfair to pose it as a credible option in 1914.



sol_invictus -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/22/2007 11:24:07 PM)

Indeed, the German policy/strategy, was fatally flawed in that it created to many enemies. With a more deft hand, Germany probably could have avoided war with Britain and America and certainly have won the war. I think Britain would have faced a stark choice though, once Russia had been defeated and the full fury of Germany was directed at France. Of course, France may have accepted or offered peace terms after Russia's defeat, if Britain remained neutral. If France had continued the war, it would have been very difficult for Britain to stand by and watch France also beaten down. Of course, it would have almost certainly been to late, at that point, for Britain to save the situation. Regardless, I find the speculation interesting.



SMK-at-work -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/23/2007 3:52:45 AM)

I played a test game vs ejs where I, as the CP, went all out vs russia while trying to hold the French....it didn't really work all that well.  the French were able to push dep into German, albeit with lots of casualties, and while the russians were also pushed back a long way, they have MUCH more distance in which to be pushed back into!!

the game stalled when we found a little bug (I couldn't reinforce some Austrian corps I'd rushed to Germany to try to halt the French), but well before the Brits were properly into it IIRC.



SMK-at-work -> RE: If Germany doesnt start at war with Belgium ... (7/23/2007 4:01:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 7th Somersets

SMK - I can't remember - does Belgian neutrality affect British deployment?


not at all IIRC.

I agree it would be an interesting option to have the Brits not in the war.

IMO it could go something like this.....

1/ TE player does not "play" the UK until it's in the war
2/ UK starts to expand army at start of game - representing mobilisation of territorials - but perhaps a little slower.
3/ UK declares war when a number of transports are sunk/attacked by central powers (some of the ships represented are bound to be British, even if they are "French" units in the game...), or when/if Belgium is invaded.

so the UK would enter the war with some more forces than just the 2 corps it gets in 1914.

One for the patch perhaps....;)






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