quote:

What do the other 6 guys do? I guess man the 37mm AT gun they stole and mounted on the bow?

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ORIGINAL: UniformYankee

We called it 'appropriation'....

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ORIGINAL: Terminus

Well, there were cannister rounds for the 37mm AT guns. Worked a charm on Bloody Ridge.

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ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

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ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
I'd like to see a DD try to ram a PT...if the PT sees it coming, I don't think the DD has a chance.

Always wondered why this question wasn't asked more in the PT-109 story. How many guys had to be "asleep at the switch" for a DD to "sneak up and ram them"? Plenty of "heroism" after the fact --- but it would seem some "bumbling incompetence" would be needed to get there....

I think they said the visibility was under 100m...you'd think you'd hear a DD coming though...

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ORIGINAL: BrucePowers

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ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:

ORIGINAL: rogueusmc
I'd like to see a DD try to ram a PT...if the PT sees it coming, I don't think the DD has a chance.

Always wondered why this question wasn't asked more in the PT-109 story. How many guys had to be "asleep at the switch" for a DD to "sneak up and ram them"? Plenty of "heroism" after the fact --- but it would seem some "bumbling incompetence" would be needed to get there....

I think they said the visibility was under 100m...you'd think you'd hear a DD coming though...

With those 3 Packard 12 cylinder engines running[X(]

I don't care if they were muffled.

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ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

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ORIGINAL: rogueusmc

I think they said the visibility was under 100m...you'd think you'd hear a DD coming though...

Might have been noisy that night. PT 109 had 4 torps I believe. Cant really imagine why you would need 16 people on PT 658.

2 officers (1 I guess so the other one can go to the can?)
2 torpedomen
2 .50 cal gunners
2 guys on the 40mm
1 (2?) engineers
1 radio operator

What do the other 6 guys do? I guess man the 37mm AT gun they stole and mounted on the bow?

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With those 3 Packard 12 cylinder engines running[X(]

I don't care if they were muffled.

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...you'd think you'd hear a DD coming though

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ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

The combat report makes for a pretty dull read.

http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-11.htm


Would like to see the story behind this one:

PT-509 destroyed by ramming of a German minesweeper in the English Channel, 9 August 1944.

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Given the lack of Japanese tanks in the Solomons Campaign, talking the Army or the Marines out of a few 37mm AT guns so you could sink some Japs BEFORE they got to your island was probably no more difficult than "Hey! We got us a case of beer..., do you have a spare AT Gun?"

quote:

_ you're right only 7 PT boats were sunk by enemy warships in the war, about the same number were sunk by coastal guns (never happen in WITP), about the same number wer lost to friendly fire (never happens in WITP), tens were lost to grounding, storms, accidental fire (never happens in WITP) and several were lost to air attack (and all reports I saw in 1943 proved that Japanese floatplanes patrolling at sea were seen as a major danger for PT, not the reverse way we see in WITP... To sink a PT in WITP you will usually lose 1-3 AC to AA fire and some more to ops).

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Boat Cause Place Date
PT 33 Grounding Pt. Santiago 15,December 1941
PT 31 Grounding Subic Bay 20,January 1942
PT 32 Scuttled Sula Sea 13,March 1942
PT 34 Airplane Cauit Island 09,April 1942
PT 35 Demolished Cebu Island 12,April 1942
PT 41 Scuttled Mindanao 15,April 1942
PT 44 Surface Craft Pacific 12,December 1942
PT 43 Surface Craft Guadalcanal 10,January 1943
PT 112 Surface Craft Guadalcanal 10,January 1943
PT 28 Grounding Alaska 12,January 1943
PT 37 Surface Craft Guadalcanal 01,February 1943
PT 111 Surface Craft Guadalcanal 01,February 1943
PT 123 Airplane Guadalcanal 01,February 1943
PT 67 Explosion New Guinea 17,March 1943
PT 119 Explosion New Guinea 17,March 1943
PT 165 Submarine New Caledonia 23,May 1943
PT 173 Submarine New Caledonia 23,May 1943
PT 22 Weather Pacific 11,June 1943
PT 153 Grounding Solomons 04,July 1943
PT 158 Grounding Solomons 05,July 1943
PT 166 Airplane Solomons 20,July 1943
PT 117 Airplane Rendova 01,August 1943
PT 164 Airplane Rendova 01,August 1943
PT 109 Surface Craft Blackett Straits 02,August 1943
PT 113 Grounding New Guinea 08,August 1943
PT 219 Weather Attu September 1943
PT 118 Grounding Vella Lavella 07,September 1943
PT 172 Grounding Vella Lavella 07,September 1943
PT 136 Grounding New Guinea 17,September 1943
PT 68 Grounding New Guinea 01,October 1943
PT 147 Grounding New Guinea 19,November 1943
PT 322 Grounding New Guinea 23,November 1943
PT 239 Fire Solomons 14,December 1943
PT 145 Grounding New Guinea 04,January 1944
PT 110 Collision New Guinea 26,January 1944
PT 279 Collision Bougainville 11,February 1944
PT 200 Collision Rhode Island 22,February 1944
PT 251 Gunfire Bougainville 26,February 1944
PT 337 Gunfire New Guinea 07,March 1944
PT 283 Gunfire Bougainville 17,March 1944
PT 121 Airplane New Britain 27,March 1944
PT 353 Airplane New Britain 27,March 1944
PT 135 Grounding New Britain 12,April 1944
PT 346 Airplane New Britain 29,April 1944
PT 347 Airplane New Britain 29,April 1944
PT 247 Gunfire Bougainville 05,May 1944
PT 339 Grounding New Guinea 27,May 1944
PT 63 Explosion New Ireland 18,June 1944
PT 107 Explosion New Ireland 18,June 1944
PT 193 Grounding New Guinea 25,June 1944
PT 133 Gunfire New Guinea 15,July 1944
PT 509 Surface Craft English Channel 09,August 1944
PT 202 Mine France 16,August 1944
PT 218 Mine France 16,August 1944
PT 555 Mine Mediterranean 23,August 1944
PT 371 Grounding Molukkaa Passage 19,September 1944
PT 368 Grounding Halmahera,N.E.I. 11,October 1944
PT 493 Surface Craft Surigao Strait PI 25,October 1944
PT 320 Airplane Leyte 05,November 1944
PT 301 Explosion New Guinea 07,November 1944
PT 321 Grounding San Isadoro Bay 11,November 1944
PT 311 Mine Corsica 18,November 1944
PT 363 Gunfire Halmahera 25,November 1944
PT 323 Airplane Leyte 10,December 1944
PT 300 Airplane Mindoro Island 18,december 1944
PT 73 Grounding Philippines 15,January 1945
PT 338 Grounding Mindoro Island 28,January 1945
PT 77 Surface Craft Luzon 01,February 1945
PT 79 Surface Craft Luzon 01,February 1945

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ORIGINAL: Dili

1943 July 17, Italian Cruiser Scipione Africano alone encounters four British Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB) in the Straits of Messina. In a night action she sank MTB 346 and damaged one of the others PT's (MTB 313) without damage to herself.

Sometimes things go wrong for PT's.

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ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

1943 July 17, Italian Cruiser Scipione Africano alone encounters four British Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB) in the Straits of Messina. In a night action she sank MTB 346 and damaged one of the others PT's (MTB 313) without damage to herself.

Sometimes things go wrong for PT's.

Ah, you see those were BRITISH torpedo boats. American torpedo boats all had J. Wayne as captain. If they had been American then they would've sunk the cruiser with a cunning trap consisting of old socks, an empty beerbottle and two hand grenades.

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ORIGINAL: Dili

1943 July 17, Italian Cruiser Scipione Africano alone encounters four British Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB) in the Straits of Messina. In a night action she sank MTB 346 and damaged one of the others PT's (MTB 313) without damage to herself.

Sometimes things go wrong for PT's.

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ORIGINAL: String
Ah, you see those were BRITISH torpedo boats. American torpedo boats all had J. Wayne as captain. If they had been American then they would've sunk the cruiser with a cunning trap consisting of old socks, an empty beerbottle and two hand grenades.

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ORIGINAL: Dili

1943 July 17, Italian Cruiser Scipione Africano alone encounters four British Motor Torpedo Boats (MTB) in the Straits of Messina. In a night action she sank MTB 346 and damaged one of the others PT's (MTB 313) without damage to herself.

Sometimes things go wrong for PT's.

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ORIGINAL: String

Ah, you see those were BRITISH torpedo boats. American torpedo boats all had J. Wayne as captain. If they had been American then they would've sunk the cruiser with a cunning trap consisting of old socks, an empty beerbottle and two hand grenades.

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ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

You are forgetting the 73 boat. That one alone accounted for about half the Jap navy. And Mr Duke wasnt on it [:-]

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ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent

Some remarks from my experience:

_ in 1943 WITP PT boats are massively upgraded and have 2 torps, 2 (or 4) 20 mm, a 37 mm gun AND a 40 mm gun. As seen above, this is setting as the norm close to the maximal armament used as field modifications, and the extra 37mm gun was often added to PT instead another weapon.

_ as for the effects of PT boats vs Japanese ships, yes battles are 1) too common 2) too bloody. In fact the probability of PT boat engaging warships should be lower and most of the times the PT should miss or retreat without being hit rather than press on, score hits and get destroyed by return fire... Another reason for the high PT losses and successes is the ability to create them out of thin air in forward bases...

_ IRL PT boats attacking warships used fast approach and retreat, meaning few hit rate and few losses for them too. They used torpedoes and then fled. AFAIK guns and so on were used against barges, sampans, etc... but not in a gunnery duel against warships.

_ in game the PT can use them without problem and will score devastating hits. The worst I have seen is one 40mm hit on a DD doing 25-30 SYS damage (+ 5-10 fire, bringing the total damaged before arrival to port to 35).

_ you're right only 7 PT boats were sunk by enemy warships in the war, about the same number were sunk by coastal guns (never happen in WITP), about the same number wer lost to friendly fire (never happens in WITP), tens were lost to grounding, storms, accidental fire (never happens in WITP) and several were lost to air attack (and all reports I saw in 1943 proved that Japanese floatplanes patrolling at sea were seen as a major danger for PT, not the reverse way we see in WITP... To sink a PT in WITP you will usually lose 1-3 AC to AA fire and some more to ops).

_ in game term, PT, barges and so on would be better simulated as "naval squadrons". As air squadrons they will be based somewhere and have a range, with missions as "supply transport", "troop transport", "patrol/base defence", "naval attack" (with a range set), etc... That will:
1) limit their range to realistic numbers. No more barges engaging KB 600 miles out of PH, or barges sailing from Kwajalein to Gilberts
2) their deployment would be done as IRL: you load ships and they sail where you want to drop PT/barges
3) op losses will be possible
4) distinction between day/night activity... barges sail at night and hide during day.
5) no more limit on production, so you can have historical number of barges (hundred at the same times) that will so give PT boats something to do..
6) on the other hand, a barge should be worth a victory point, as a transport aircraft is worth it
7) attacks of PT against enemy ships are more close to the attack of a torpedo boat against the same target (a quick attack trough fire by secondary and AA guns and then a quick retreat) than a battle against warships.

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ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Oh my... wait until "AdmiralLaurent" sees this... he lost number of DDs and CLs against those (and mostly from 20mm and 40mm hits)... [;)]

Sighted Typos fixed.