New PBEM Playback (Full Version)

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targul -> New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 5:13:00 AM)

The new playback is really horrible. It is difficult to read and almost worthless. There should be a list showing major things that happen. Surrenders, Declarations of War, units eliminated and an actual playback of the action not a bunch of weird lines.



Happycat -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 7:00:05 AM)

I disagree, I think the plot lines on the map are quite useful. It's a huge improvement over what we had in version 1.0 (which was nothing at all). It's fairly obvious if there have been surrenders or dow's. If a nation that had forces on the map in the previous turn has none now, I think it's pretty safe to assume they surrendered. And if a nation that previously was dormant suddenly has units, I would guess that my opponent dow'd them.

A full playback would be preferable, but this will do nicely for now imo.



targul -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 7:05:57 AM)

Strongly disagree you do not know if they declared war or surrendered. Only after the same examination prior to this piece of junk can you find out.

I have played numerous PBEM games in the hundreds at least and this is the worst PBEM return I have seen. Cant call it a playback since it does not provide any playback at all.



Happycat -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 7:19:26 AM)

Huh? How can you not notice a change to a neutral's status? If they were neutral on turn 3, and on turn 4 they have units active, of course there had to have been a dow. Contrarily, if a minor country had forces active on turn 3, and on turn 4 they have none (plus clicking on the nation's hexes will tell you name of new owner) it would certainly appear that they surrendered.

If I am missing your point, I apologize, but your remark about not knowing whether they surrendered or were dow'd has me perplexed.

I agree this isn't a perfect solution, in that you have to look around a bit for the information you want, but it's far from being horrible. It just takes a bit more work. In my PBEM's I make notes of my unit count and disposition on the front lines for reference purposes on the following turn.



targul -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 7:33:57 AM)

Sorry but I am accustom to professional feedback from the games I play. This reminds me of a kid who had never seen a game replay.

As to not showing surrenders. I was unable to tell that Denmark had fallen until I removed my BB ship from there port and saw the Axis trooper sitting there.

The Axis attacked through Beligum ignoring Netherland again I had done many things before I noticed it. My British air was killed in France again no notification.

PBEM is sometimes days in the play so if you have mulitple games or do not remember where all your units where you will not know they were killed.

I find it irritating and worse then nothing we had before. Before at least players told you what was happening now we supposedly have a playback but I still havent seen any playback just a screen with a bunch of arrows going everywhere. If there is a playback I will download the patch again because what I have sure doesnt have it.



Happycat -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 7:42:20 AM)

Fair enough, I can see your point. The Denmark thing with your BB masking the Axis unit is especially annoying. Although I still think this is an improvement, I would be the first to agree with you that a full motion playback would be the best solution. Hopefully most opponents will tell you the major things that occurred in the previous turn.




Titan -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 1:28:51 PM)

I have to say a standard has already been set for PBEM feedback of an oppoenets turn, even the now antiquated TOAW kept you very informed of what your  oppoent did that your intel could reveal.But this being a new release is somewhat a very glaringly a very poor and rushed implication of an important feature. Many things i like about this game, but pbem playback  like SC2, CM, TOAW, and many others are well above this. This destroys my desire to play multiplayer (pbem)until a more satisfactory playback is sorted out.This one in the patch appears nothing more than a stop gap. This game reminds me abit like HOI when it first came out, very raw and rough when it first came out but became more refined as time and patches came out, but PBEM playback is one big step to being refined and should be prioritised.



Rocko911 -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/21/2007 6:13:06 PM)

I agree, the PBEM playback should copy what SC2 does. This allows someone to see the nuances and strategy of the attacks. This adds to the atmosphere and strategy of the game. I hope they work on this quickly.



Dave Ferguson -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/22/2007 1:04:40 PM)

The PBEM replay is a creditable first effort and greatly improves PBEM games, especially as it was produced in a short time span.

I like the 'action snapshot' approach rather than the movie replay such as you get in TOAW where many players stop using the replay as it is so slow and boring.

With the CEAW version you get a quick overview of what went on and even in some cases, e.g. subs too much information.

some thoughts:

1. the battle graphic can be confused with a city, maybe a explosion or something could be better, anyway modders can change these icons.
2. A visibility toggle for the replay would be useful, switch it off when you have absorbed the info. This would give a less cluttered map as well.
3. I like the track display of units moving through your spotting zone, a nice level of mystery, something moved but what was it?
4. Multiple battles in the same hex would benefit from a different graphic, maybe a number showing the total above 1.
5. It would be nice to know which enemy units rebuilt or deployed.
6. some indicator for units moving in by rail would be good
7. ditto moving air units, basically anthing that did not use a path algorithm to move.
8. not sure whether submarines revealing themselves on combat will swing the balance to far in favour of the defender, maybe just a battle icon would be better here.

This  snapshot approach is worth developing further IMO rather than doing a complete movie replay. If such a replay is developed OK, but the present approach is fine.

Dave



targul -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/22/2007 6:10:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

The PBEM replay is a creditable first effort and greatly improves PBEM games, especially as it was produced in a short time span.

I like the 'action snapshot' approach rather than the movie replay such as you get in TOAW where many players stop using the replay as it is so slow and boring.

With the CEAW version you get a quick overview of what went on and even in some cases, e.g. subs too much information.

some thoughts:

1. the battle graphic can be confused with a city, maybe a explosion or something could be better, anyway modders can change these icons.
2. A visibility toggle for the replay would be useful, switch it off when you have absorbed the info. This would give a less cluttered map as well.
3. I like the track display of units moving through your spotting zone, a nice level of mystery, something moved but what was it?
4. Multiple battles in the same hex would benefit from a different graphic, maybe a number showing the total above 1.
5. It would be nice to know which enemy units rebuilt or deployed.
6. some indicator for units moving in by rail would be good
7. ditto moving air units, basically anthing that did not use a path algorithm to move.
8. not sure whether submarines revealing themselves on combat will swing the balance to far in favour of the defender, maybe just a battle icon would be better here.

This  snapshot approach is worth developing further IMO rather than doing a complete movie replay. If such a replay is developed OK, but the present approach is fine.

Dave


Well, I am happy you are so easily satisfied. As for me PBEM is out since this gives me zero valuable information. The track display does allow me to find where ships moved to (the one thing you should not know).

A graphic of any kind would be great at the battles would be good a circle just provides me again zero information. Was it attacked by air land or sea. Dont know and cant find out.

You should not know which units rebuilt or redloyed unless they are next to you.

The present approach for me is not even close to acceptable.

I have wargames from the early ninties with actual playback as I believe most of us expected and certainly me so that technology has been available for at least 15 years that I know of and why this company didnt have it at the start and could not get it together after the players complained is beyond me.

I do know this is the WORST available playback in the industry. Actally it is not a playback it is nothing of any real use. Which units died. Doesnt tell me. What units damaged or killed them doesnt tell me. How did his portion of the game develop doesnt tell me.

Leaves me with no information to develop a strategy against my oponent. As the leader of the forces I receive no briefing of what is going on.

This PBEM needs two things. A report of losses and important events like surrender and declarations war and losses of your units. Second it needs an actaul playback of the opponents turn not little drqwings but a real playback.

As this game stands PBEM was almost impossible to play and this patch only made matters worse.



Oleg Mastruko -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/22/2007 7:30:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

The PBEM replay is a creditable first effort and greatly improves PBEM games, especially as it was produced in a short time span.


You GOTTA be kidding. Short time span? I'd say that the very idea of releasing the game without PBEM turn replay feature in this day and age is ridicolous to the point of being insulting.

They should have planned to implement PBEM replay the first milisecond they started thinking about CEAW, however many months or years ago....



targul -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/22/2007 7:44:18 PM)

You GOTTA be kidding. Short time span? I'd say that the very idea of releasing the game without PBEM turn replay feature in this day and age is ridicolous to the point of being insulting.

I agree that is maybe why I feel as I do about this junk they sent.  It is simply insulting for them to have no replay and then to give us this piece of trash as a substitute is just wrong.



Vypuero -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/23/2007 1:37:21 AM)

The focus was on tcp/ip which in most games isn't even there, let alone working well.  It works well.  I am playing a number of PBEM have no issues.  You can see units that were attacked, and you can see if something was conquered because FOW stays off for units that attacked.  It gives you more than you need to know to play the game



targul -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/23/2007 1:49:26 AM)

If you like inferior work more power to you. If my programmers had ever handed me something like that they would have been looking for a job the next day.

I produced Civil War General and it had playback. I published the game in 1995/6. I would have never considered sending something this bad to my customers. I did not like the AI we produced in the game but at least the play vs other players worked as that was the focus of the game from the start.

If there is another game out there that does PBEM without playback let me know so I can be sure not to buy it. Until they make it clear what happened during your oponents turn I consider this unplayable using the PBEM option.

I will no longer recommend this game since I feel it is both unplayable in PBEM and if that patch is result of their best efforts to get us a PBEM system then I am not sure they will ever be able to make the game worthwhile.

Game may have all the potential in the world but if this patch is an example of their work then that potenial has no chance of development.



Happycat -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/23/2007 2:06:56 AM)

My, such drama. I can appreciate that the "snapshot" isn't as desirable as a full replay (at least not for everyone), but I haven't heard so much whining since I was housebreaking my two dogs.

It becomes difficult to take you guys seriously when you make over-the-top statements such as I am reading in this thread.

Compared to some of the crap I have bought lately from publishers who are supposedly the leaders in strategy-wargaming, this game is very good. Slitherine and Matrix both have pretty good track records for fixing problems in their games, so I don't think I would be freaking out just yet.

Anyway, you are all entitled to your opinions, and to voice them. I just wanted to point out that if I'm having trouble taking you seriously (and I can be a bit of a "drama boy" myself at times), I can only imagine how the game developer reacts when reading some of this stuff.

[>:]



Titan -> RE: New PBEM Playback (7/23/2007 11:28:41 AM)

Also with the movie playback one can get an idea of what your Intel spotted moving through LOS and dissappeared etc and where did it go, all adds to the guessing part of the game. But end of the day this playback has to be a standard feature that one should expect as a minium standard for a pbem game in 2007. I find myself guessing what did what and what moved were. Part of the itensity of the game is lost , you want to watch the turn unfold, instead once you open your email to view your turn it has already happened instead of the steady buildup you experience when watching say a SC2 turn unfold, and kind leaves on the edge of your seat feeling during the playback as opposed to a more emontionally empty feeling at seeing what has happend, hence leaves you with less of the adrelinin feel when things are tight. I would like it to going to the movies and watching the first ten minuted and the last ten minutes and missing the story and buildup in the middle, thats  how i could best describe the current feeling when opeing a new game file.

3rd Batt
C-Co
RNZIR  85-92



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