Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (Full Version)

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Mus -> Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/26/2007 5:44:50 AM)

With Dragoon Tactics upgrade cavalry units may continue to make fire attacks as long as they have 6 movement points. Is this intentional? It would seem the intent was for a unit to be able to move, shoot, move and not move, shoot, shoot, shoot, as is currently possible. Cavalry brigades with this upgrade turn into buzzsaws (especially w/ fast attribute + quality horses). Its pretty overpowered.

Erik or Gil?

PS I believe Oblique Fire attribute has the same effect, its just not as overpowered with infantry with their lower number of movement points.



Drex -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/26/2007 5:57:16 AM)

I have used this to great effect with a whole Cav division. But  I don't know if it was intentional to use it as an instrument of repeated attacks.



Gil R. -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/26/2007 6:53:42 AM)

I believe it's intentional, but Eric will have to respond once he's back from camping.

Or you can find him at the national forest in upstate Michigan, if this is urgent.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/26/2007 8:20:01 AM)

tried to edit and double posted.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/26/2007 8:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

I believe it's intentional, but Eric will have to respond once he's back from camping.


OK, If it is I will just assume its meant to make Cavalry worth the high cost and not feel bad for exploiting. It just feels pretty damn OP to be intentional. I will wait for the answer from Eric since thats too large an area to go looking.

[:D]



ericbabe -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (7/30/2007 4:37:44 PM)

Dragoon Tactics are supposed to halve your movement points after you fire, and if you have more than 6 as a result you can continue to fire (noting that the reduced movement point penalty applies normally).  A cavalry with 24 movement points should be able to fire 3 times: 24 movement, 12 movement, and 6 movement.  I'd hoped that the movement penalty to fire attacks would be enough to keep this in balance as far as multiple attacks was concerned.  If a general consensus forms that this is overpowered, then I will be happy to find a way to reduce the power of this.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/5/2007 11:13:31 PM)

The AI doesnt take multiple shots with Dragoon Tactics.



moose1999 -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/6/2007 1:49:31 PM)

An easy solution would be to only allow two shots - or perhaps only one.
Even in the last case I think dragoon tactics would still be a valuable upgrade and it would force people to use cavalry as intended - as a get-in-and-out-fast unit.
As it is now, with dragoon tactics, I can pretty much walk up to the back or flank of any unit and rout them with two or three volleys from a cavalry unit with decent weapons, knowing they will rout and therefore not having to care about getting the hell away after firing. That makes cavalry seriously overpowered.

Actually, the more I think about it, a one-shot rule would be the best.
The dragoon upgrade would then only give the cavalry the ability to get out of trouble after firing - but that in itself is very useful and is exactly what cavalry tactics is supposed to be like in a civil war game. That's what I  think, anyway.

With the one-shot rule in effect, you could then perhaps add a buy-able unit-ability that would give the specific cavalry unit the ability to fire two times (only works after the dragoon tactics upgrade is researched, of course) or, if you want to restrict it a little, make it a training-only ability to avoid spamming. Or you could just make the dragoon-unit-upgrade very expensive, either in price or upkeep, or both.

And that was my thoughts on the subject. [:)]



cerosenberg -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/6/2007 10:07:01 PM)

Except in special situations of Raiding or Cav vs Cav, ie  Gettysburg & Brandy Station, all CW Cav behaved as dragoons.  Namely, they rode to a site, dismounted and fought.  I do not know of a single instance where Cav was able to behave on the battlefield as the Dragoon Tactics upgrade allows.  The closest example to said upgrade was an infantry brigade, Wilder's Brigade, which equiped itself with Spencers and rode horses or mules.  The Spencer allowed for the increased firepower making the brigade seem like a division and riding for rapid movement.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/6/2007 11:09:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: briny_norman

Actually, the more I think about it, a one-shot rule would be the best.
The dragoon upgrade would then only give the cavalry the ability to get out of trouble after firing - but that in itself is very useful and is exactly what cavalry tactics is supposed to be like in a civil war game. That's what I  think, anyway.


Agreed, but I think you should also be able to charge after a fire attack if you have the movement points for it. This would allow you to either press your advantage or get away to safety, providing enough benefit to justify the upgrade.

Making 2-4 fire attacks a round gets obscenely OP with the higher level weapons like Spencers, using quality horses, fast attribute and forced march to milk as many volleys as possible.

PS Just to restate so it isnt missed, the AI IS NOT making multiple fire attacks with dragoon tactics/oblique fire. Its a big advantage to the human player.



moose1999 -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/7/2007 2:31:48 AM)

Agree completely on the charge thing, Mus.
After firing, the cavalry unit should have the choice of either charging or get the hell out of there (depending on remaining movement points, of course).



ericbabe -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/7/2007 6:21:17 AM)

Thanks for the report on the AI and Dragoon Tactics -- I'll put it on my list of things to look into.



CeltiCid -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/7/2007 12:31:50 PM)

quote:

Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD?


what is the effectiveness of this advance in quick combat? do it worth as much as in detailed battle?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/7/2007 9:51:15 PM)

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think

major minuss for the firing of the 2nd and 3rd shot, the main idea is to be able to move in, fire and move out, if the player does not want to follow tactics and use the move points for firing, that is up to the player (I guilty too)

also the supply burn is very high with Cav, and keeping them in place to fire off the rest of the movement points also places them in danger of being crippled



Drex -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 1:54:23 AM)

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 3:41:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think


Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

However, using quality horses, fast attribute, force march, etc to jack the movement points up as high as possible and combined with high level weapons like Spencers and up you are looking at being able to deliver 2 to 4 extremely powerful volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade. The fact that subsequent shots have a penalty doesnt really matter since from that angle the return fire is ineffective. Supply isnt much of an issue either since you generally wont run out of supply before you break the targeted brigade and with the speed of cavalry its easy to rotate them back to supply caissons, but even if you dont want to an out of supply cav brigade still does respectable damage on a rear flank or rear attack with a good weapon. Also leaving them in a position to be counterattacked is less important since the Cav gets a bonus that reduces fire damage inflicted on it and can also dodge charges.

Im not saying its insanely overpowered in all circumstances, but with the means I outlined to increase movement points combined with the higher level weapons I think it definetely gets OP.

2 fire attacks max, or a fire attack and charge or move would be better balanced I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.


Yeah. But with a Divison or a Corps of cavalry you can crush an entire wing of an opposing army. You need Cavalry Bureau upgrade to do this routinely as well.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 4:24:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think


Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse

but got to disagree, on the once you get, idea, once you get some or all of the goodies, you can do major damage with any unit and it does not need the DT to be the monster, inf with Spencers can be just as nasty, plus there are better weapons out there, add in the right attachments, and they are even more deadly


However, using quality horses, fast attribute, force march, etc to jack the movement points up as high as possible and combined with high level weapons like Spencers and up you are looking at being able to deliver 2 to 4 extremely powerful volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade. The fact that subsequent shots have a penalty doesnt really matter since from that angle the return fire is ineffective. Supply isnt much of an issue either since you generally wont run out of supply before you break the targeted brigade and with the speed of cavalry its easy to rotate them back to supply caissons, but even if you dont want to an out of supply cav brigade still does respectable damage on a rear flank or rear attack with a good weapon. Also leaving them in a position to be counterattacked is less important since the Cav gets a bonus that reduces fire damage inflicted on it and can also dodge charges.

Im not saying its insanely overpowered in all circumstances, but with the means I outlined to increase movement points combined with the higher level weapons I think it definetely gets OP.

2 fire attacks max, or a fire attack and charge or move would be better balanced I think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Drex

I don't think its something you want to do with a solo brigade.


Yeah. But with a Divison or a Corps of cavalry you can crush an entire wing of an opposing army. You need Cavalry Bureau upgrade to do this routinely as well.

and with one of my Armies, I can crush the opposing army, with or with out using the DT, so what is the point ?, for me, Entrenchment is a much better train






Gil R. -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 5:07:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

this is not as strong as most of you seem to think


Have you tested it at all? With lower level weapons it isnt too bad...

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse





Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.




Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 6:18:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.



What I was really trying to ask was how recently he had looked at it, thinking maybe something had changed since he examined it closely last.

Its all well and good to claim it isnt as overpowered as it may seem, or that there are other combinations that are even more powerful. If thats the case lets hear them.

All I see with DT Cav is a unit that can zip around a battlefield at a high speed and deliver multiple volleys into the rear flank or rear of an enemy brigade and suffer little damage from return fire because of the angle and cavalry bonus. On top of that the AI isnt utilizing it very well so it tends to stack things further in favor of a human player.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

well, I could say somethings, but I was brought up to be polite, but, in the long run, yes, I have tested it, I tested it before it was there and I tested it after it came in, parts of how it works is based on my reports on it, and this is what we came up with, can it be abused ? yeap, but there are many other parts of the game that can be abused also, and some are much worse

but got to disagree, on the once you get, idea, once you get some or all of the goodies, you can do major damage with any unit and it does not need the DT to be the monster, inf with Spencers can be just as nasty, plus there are better weapons out there, add in the right attachments, and they are even more deadly


Sorry. I didnt mean to start off on the wrong foot and offend you with that question. I know you are a beta tester so obviously you *have* tested things. What I was wondering was how recently you had tested this specific aspect of the game, because to me it seems almost self evidently overpowered.

I can do more damage with other combinations in a single volley, particularly morale loss, but nothing else has this kind of speed and damage from multiple volleys in combination.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

and with one of my Armies, I can crush the opposing army, with or with out using the DT, so what is the point ?, for me, Entrenchment is a much better train



Well the point was that 3-4 or more brigades of Cavalry upgraded as I described seem capable of causing havoc completely out of proportion to the investment involved. Not just that, but once they have crushed a bunch of enemy units cavalry can more easily pursue and capture them.

If you know of more powerful combinations then by all means share. Im pretty hardcore as a gamer so I love crunching numbers and analyzing this kinda crap in detail.

Entrenchment is certainly really good as a defensive measure combined with hardy or slaves, but what infantry or artillery combination is comparable to DT Cav in the offense?



Gil R. -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 6:32:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mus

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

Has Hard Sarge tested it? Mus, Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.



What I was really trying to ask was how recently he had looked at it, thinking maybe something had changed since he examined it closely last.


That's always possible, though I don't think Eric has had reason to touch this particular code recently.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 12:27:39 PM)

figures, I write a nice long detail report, and the forum crashes out on me

oh well

Mus
no hassle, no harm done, we back to being on the same step now

so, yes, I know all about it and how it can be used or misused, I am the so called Hew War expert, I can do things in HW that border on the unreal, but I didn't want to get into that, as it sounds like bragging, and I do not like to bragg

but really, DT is a good reseach to have, early-mid game/war, most Cav is going to be understrengthed, so the best use for it, is to get in, do damage and get out, if you stay in place, you are going to end up taking damage and losses you can not replace for a while (sure you may win this battle, but then be in a state that you do not want to fight the next)(I almost alway think long term, this battle is not importent, it is the next one that may be)

by the time you get to the point you are talking about, Tactics are not really needed any more, just a standard march forward and fire is going to win most battles

it can be over used, abused, yes, but the way you say you can take POWs with 3 or 4 Cav units sounds like you also abuse the camp system in the game, Cav for a long time, will never be able to split, and the damage taken in combat should be kept to as few as you can get away with (note, Abuse is a Harsh word for a game, it is in the game, so it is fair to use it, just because players will use it in ways the designer did not plan on, does not mean it is wrong)

Combos, there are some good ones out there, there are a few, that once I see the AI is useing it, that BDE is dead, I will slaughter half of my troops to be sure it does not get away to fight another day, and as a ex Marine, let me say, I hate taking losses, I hate taking losses for a good reason, I hate taking losses for any reason, so for me to say I am willing to take heavy losses to take out a unit, means something

overall, I don't think I need to give my ideas on what makes good or deadly combos, just read what the addons give you or watch them in action, you will be able to tell what works and what don't

LOL and some of them are plain killers backward if you get them,

question on the Cav should be able to charge after they fire ? they can ? (that is also a addon you can get, great when it works, but most times it happens just when you really do not want it to)






Hard Sarge -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 12:30:03 PM)

quote:

Hard Sarge is the Tom Bombadil of "Forge of Freedom" detailed combat -- he was there in the beginning, and knows every root and every stone and every stream.


Greesh, I have been called a lot of things in my day, but never been called Tom Bombadil before

ahhh, should of saved that old map, I really liked fighting for HARD_Sargeville, of course, HARD_Sargepoint, and HARD_Sargeden, and HARD_Sargebluff were a little much

(all I asked for was HARD_Sargeville)

in fact, I still got the one with HARD_Sargeville as one of the towns :)




Joram -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/8/2007 11:15:36 PM)

I guess I'm surprised that this seems to be an issue.  Because first of all, you have to keep them supplied.  Second, there's fatigue which can happen anytime you fire (I think!), and third, I seem to remember a rule about the damage being in direct proportion to the amount of movement points you have left compared to initial.  So theoretically, all other factors left even, your second shot would only be half strength (assuming at rest initially) and your third shot would only be one quarter strength.  And if you move more than a few hexes, you would only get two shots and then be stuck in place, possibly with your own flanks exposed.

While not being the HW expert like HardSarge, I don't see it as being overpowered. 




Hard Sarge -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/9/2007 1:33:16 AM)

well

depending on what is going on, and what you hit

you hit a full army on the march, I would say, it is best to get in and get out, as you are going to get caught if you don't

but if you can hit a single or a few BDEs, then, yes, it may be worth it to stay in place and do as much damage as you can at that one time

which, I can say, I have hit and stayed in place and I have hit and run, I have also, just kept moving, and forceing the enemy to keep reacting and changing there front to keep me in view

in the long run, at times, it is best to do it like that, keep the enemy confused and reacting to what you may do, then to have it react to what you do, do (lol, that sounds just so wrong)

and at times, you can keep a Div confused and out of the main battle with only 1 or 2 Bdes of Cav, with out ever having to close in and fire





Joram -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/9/2007 4:50:10 AM)

Exactly, you can tie up a lot of forces by marching and countermarching without ever having to fire.  I use that tactic to great effect and don't need Dragoon Tactics to do it.



Mus -> RE: Dragoon Tactics/Oblique Fire WAD? (8/9/2007 4:52:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

it can be over used, abused, yes, but the way you say you can take POWs with 3 or 4 Cav units sounds like you also abuse the camp system in the game, Cav for a long time, will never be able to split, and the damage taken in combat should be kept to as few as you can get away with (note, Abuse is a Harsh word for a game, it is in the game, so it is fair to use it, just because players will use it in ways the designer did not plan on, does not mean it is wrong)


Well I do use other units to help them surround stuff, but the Cavalry runs to all the distant spots. I dont really know what you mean by abusing the camp system, I dont go nuts like the AI does with the camps but I do like to get around 8-10k in reinforcements a turn.

I mainly use Cavalry Bureau to make sure I can use my Cavalry this aggressively. Usually at the end of a big battle each Cav bde has caused 3000-4000 casualties and lost around 700-800. The only other units that generally can keep up with that is Artillery, which is a great deal more expensive, whether produced or created from attachments, than Cav.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Because first of all, you have to keep them supplied. Second, there's fatigue which can happen anytime you fire (I think!), and third, I seem to remember a rule about the damage being in direct proportion to the amount of movement points you have left compared to initial. So theoretically, all other factors left even, your second shot would only be half strength (assuming at rest initially) and your third shot would only be one quarter strength.


Supplying them isnt really an issue. You can blow off all their supply in one or two turns depending on how you move and shoot them and then run them back to caissons and resupply in one turn. Fatigue is hit or miss, but it inevitably happens, especially when I use Force March to get an extra attack, which is part of what makes it seem OP to me. There is a reduction in damage from moving, but generally speaking I try to make all these attacks into the rear flank or rear of the infantry bde Im targeting. The first shot is almost always an overdamage shot that blows the targeted bdes morale pretty good and the second and third are still really respectable in terms of damage done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

And if you move more than a few hexes, you would only get two shots and then be stuck in place, possibly with your own flanks exposed.


Generally what I do is move as close as possible without being adjacent, form line and change facing. Next turn I go forward a hex and start the attacks. With quality horses fast attribute and a general with a good amount of bonus move I think you can get 4 attacks but I dont have detailed notes and oftentimes Im just clicking as fast as I can to get the attacks over with quickly. If its only 3 it still adds up to a bunch of casualties and morale loss.

The flanks being exposed doesnt hurt as much as you think because of the line "Defender is Cavalry" in the attack report. I might take a decent hit in return but generally speaking do a bunch more damage than I take by leaving them exposed.

I guess for me, bottom line is, if the AI makes use of DT/Oblique Fire the way a human would its only a minor game imbalance. If it doesnt utilize it correctly it makes for a pretty good advantage for the human player.

There are some combinations out there that do more damage in a single shot than this combo, but none seem to equal the total damage this combo can do in one turn, plus its speed and relatively low cost.

PS. I just had a battle where one of my cavalry bdes shot a 500 overdamage with the first shot, then a 300 overdamage volley with the second. I also confirmed that you can sometimes get conditions right for 4 shots.



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