Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (Full Version)

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crsutton -> Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:38:00 PM)

Now, mind you, I am not saying that I have lost all of my American carriers....

But lets suppose I just did

Lets suppose that I just attempted to invade Lunga on 9/1/42, and lets suppose that the invasion was going pretty well with most of my troops ashore. Then lets just suppose that KB shows up and the most lop sided battle in history takes place where the entire undetected KB launched every god damn plane and then some from 5 hexes away. Then lets suppose that the 80 or so zero escort blew my pitiful wildcats out of the sky and then I had to watch helplessly while 200 or more kates and vals rained bombs down of my pitiful carriers and let just imagine that in spite of my fast BB, plenty of CAs and CLAAs that I only manged to shoot down about 30 of the attacking bombers. And let just hypothisize that the IJN was pretty much able to duplicate that feat in the PM attack, where I then had no CAP and could only cry like a little girl as my precious babies took bomb after bomb and were turned into floating charnel houses.

Did I forget to mention that none of my planes managed to fly an offensive mission and KB in all its glory lies two hexes off of Lunga with nary a scratch? Well, lets just supposed that happened too.

So lets just visualize the resulting mayhem that will rain down upon my exposed transports and AKs who devoid of air protection will be caught next turn and beat on like a 10 dollar whore-resulting in the stranding and eventual elimination of my 1st marine division and all of the various support units that I have stuck on Lunga with nothing at all to eat...OMG! I SIMPLY WANT TO KILL MYSELF!!![:@] [:@] [:@]

Well, I am not saying that this actually happened, but for the purpose of intellectual discorse, lets just assume that it did.

I know that these supposedly lost carriers will get replaced eventually. How long will that take?

I think I need to go lie down for a while.



Charbroiled -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:41:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Now, mind you, I am not saying that I have lost all of my American carriers....

But lets suppose I just did

Lets suppose that I just attempted to invade Lunga on 9/1/42, and lets suppose that the invasion was going pretty well with most of my troops ashore. Then lets just suppose that KB shows up and the most lop sided battle in history takes place where the entire undetected KB launched every god damn plane and then some from 5 hexes away. Then lets suppose that the 80 or so zero escort blew my pitiful wildcats out of the sky and then I had to watch helplessly while 200 or more kates and vals rained bombs down of my pitiful carriers and let just imagine that in spite of my fast BB, plenty of CAs and CLAAs that I only manged to shoot down about 30 of the attacking bombers. And let just hypothisize that the IJN was pretty much able to duplicate that feat in the PM attack, where I then had no CAP and could only cry like a little girl as my precious babies took bomb after bomb and were turned into floating charnel houses.

Did I forget to mention that none of my planes managed to fly an offensive mission and KB in all its glory lies two hexes off of Lunga with nary a scratch? Well, lets just supposed that happened too.

So lets just visualize the resulting mayhem that will rain down upon my exposed transports and AKs who devoid of air protection will be caught next turn and beat on like a 10 dollar whore-resulting in the stranding and eventual elimination of my 1st marine division and all of the various support units that I have stuck on Lunga with nothing at all to eat...OMG! I SIMPLY WANT TO KILL MYSELF!!![:@] [:@] [:@]

Well, I am not saying that this actually happened, but for the purpose of intellectual discorse, lets just assume that it did.

I know that these supposedly lost carriers will get replaced eventually. How long will that take?

I think I need to go lie down for a while.


LOL....I suppose that you are screwed for awhile.



rtrapasso -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:41:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Now, mind you, I am not saying that I have lost all of my American carriers....

But lets suppose I just did

Lets suppose that I just attempted to invade Lunga on 9/1/42, and lets suppose that the invasion was going pretty well with most of my troops ashore. Then lets just suppose that KB shows up and the most lop sided battle in history takes place where the entire undetected KB launched every god damn plane and then some from 5 hexes away. Then lets suppose that the 80 or so zero escort blew my pitiful wildcats out of the sky and then I had to watch helplessly while 200 or more kates and vals rained bombs down of my pitiful carriers and let just imagine that in spite of my fast BB, plenty of CAs and CLAAs that I only manged to shoot down about 30 of the attacking bombers. And let just hypothisize that the IJN was pretty much able to duplicate that feat in the PM attack, where I then had no CAP and could only cry like a little girl as my precious babies took bomb after bomb and were turned into floating charnel houses.

Did I forget to mention that none of my planes managed to fly an offensive mission and KB in all its glory lies two hexes off of Lunga with nary a scratch? Well, lets just supposed that happened too.

So lets just visualize the resulting mayhem that will rain down upon my exposed transports and AKs who devoid of air protection will be caught next turn and beat on like a 10 dollar whore-resulting in the stranding and eventual elimination of my 1st marine division and all of the various support units that I have stuck on Lunga with nothing at all to eat...OMG! I SIMPLY WANT TO KILL MYSELF!!![:@] [:@] [:@]

Well, I am not saying that this actually happened, but for the purpose of intellectual discorse, lets just assume that it did.

I know that these supposedly lost carriers will get replaced eventually. How long will that take?

I think I need to go lie down for a while.


Depends a bit on if you have variable replacements on, i think... but something like 1.5 years...


EDIT: Good thing this is just an intellectual exercise!! [8|] [:'(]



wworld7 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:46:51 PM)

for the purpose of intellectual discorse

Maybe it was a dream?




USSAmerica -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:56:00 PM)

Let's just suppose that this didn't actually happen.  We would all get an awesome laugh out of talking about it as a "what if."  [;)][:D]

If we suppose that it were to actually happen, you would probably be slowed down in your advance for more than a year.  On the normal reinforcement schedule you would get a few CVL's in the next year, but the only CV would be Essex.  You will (I mean would) start getting the bulk of the Essex class CV's right about the same time that you get the respawned versions of the CV's lost at Lunga, early in '44. 



crsutton -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:56:20 PM)





EDIT: Good thing this is just an intellectual exercise!! [8|] [:'(]
[/quote]


My head hurts.......



Mark VII -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 5:56:43 PM)

For the purpose of intellectual discorse you sure have alot of detail! You should write for a living.[:)]



Mark VII -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 6:01:48 PM)

you probably need to use overwellming land based airpower and try to move up through NG(provided you still have PM) or out of Darwin or both! Just beat down the Jap airforce with superior numbers like we did in RL.



witpqs -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 6:02:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Now, mind you, I am not saying that I have lost all of my American carriers....



Does the hypothetical "all" mean, hypothetically "6"?



siRkid -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 6:15:48 PM)

I've played without carriers as the allies and you  can still take the offensive. You just have to attack in areas that are in range of your land based aircraft. Its slow tough work but it can be done. 



TheTomDude -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 6:36:20 PM)

As a jap player I can only say ....BANZAI [:D]

Your post was a good read though. Had a grin on my face while reading. [sm=happy0065.gif]



crsutton -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 7:03:31 PM)


[[/quote]

Does the hypothetical "all" mean, hypothetically "6"?

[/quote]

Possibly.



crsutton -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 7:29:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

I've played without carriers as the allies and you  can still take the offensive. You just have to attack in areas that are in range of your land based aircraft. Its slow tough work but it can be done. 


I hold PM with some force now, but don't see how I can stop him from interdicting supply there.

And, considering he has an unscathed KB, what is to stop him from just rotating some fast carriers, a few oilers and a CS or two out to my supply line from the West Coast and just sort of shutting off the faucet for a year or so? I think that is what I would do if I were the IJN.

Just supposing here.



kaleun -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 7:44:05 PM)

See the thread "Shame and Execration" in the AARs. That's pretty close to what happened to me vs Warspite. Fortunately we were playing stock, so there was the fictitious rail line to Darwin that allowed me to start an offenssive From Timor into NG and the DEIs.
Still I lost the game on autovictory on Jan 45, [8|]but it was a good game.
I don't think it will work as well in the CHS map. You do need to hold PM and have sea superiority to supply Darwin in that one.



niceguy2005 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 8:14:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark VII

you probably need to use overwellming land based airpower and try to move up through NG(provided you still have PM) or out of Darwin or both! Just beat down the Jap airforce with superior numbers like we did in RL.

This is my thought exactly. Also the KB can't be everywhere at once. Try multiple advances, covered by LBA, all at the same time. However, any sort of advance through the Central pacific is virtually out of the question.



Apollo11 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 8:17:45 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Now, mind you, I am not saying that I have lost all of my American carriers....

But lets suppose I just did

Lets suppose that I just attempted to invade Lunga on 9/1/42, and lets suppose that the invasion was going pretty well with most of my troops ashore. Then lets just suppose that KB shows up and the most lop sided battle in history takes place where the entire undetected KB launched every god damn plane and then some from 5 hexes away. Then lets suppose that the 80 or so zero escort blew my pitiful wildcats out of the sky and then I had to watch helplessly while 200 or more kates and vals rained bombs down of my pitiful carriers and let just imagine that in spite of my fast BB, plenty of CAs and CLAAs that I only manged to shoot down about 30 of the attacking bombers. And let just hypothisize that the IJN was pretty much able to duplicate that feat in the PM attack, where I then had no CAP and could only cry like a little girl as my precious babies took bomb after bomb and were turned into floating charnel houses.

Did I forget to mention that none of my planes managed to fly an offensive mission and KB in all its glory lies two hexes off of Lunga with nary a scratch? Well, lets just supposed that happened too.

So lets just visualize the resulting mayhem that will rain down upon my exposed transports and AKs who devoid of air protection will be caught next turn and beat on like a 10 dollar whore-resulting in the stranding and eventual elimination of my 1st marine division and all of the various support units that I have stuck on Lunga with nothing at all to eat...OMG! I SIMPLY WANT TO KILL MYSELF!!![:@] [:@] [:@]

Well, I am not saying that this actually happened, but for the purpose of intellectual discorse, lets just assume that it did.

I know that these supposedly lost carriers will get replaced eventually. How long will that take?

I think I need to go lie down for a while.


Don't give up... you still have 99.99% chance of winning in 1944/1945 (if you don't abort earlier and/or end on points - BTW I never count points BTW)... [:)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Naskra -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 8:54:17 PM)

it's fortunate that such things could never really happen.



Canoerebel -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 8:57:31 PM)

If it's against the AI, you just go back in time a few days and maninpulate things so that you get a different result.

If it's PBEM, you'll be amazed at how much the Allies can accomplish under adverse circumstances - you know, necessity is the mother of invention and all that.  You'll figure out new ways to bring the war to your opponent.



herwin -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 9:13:21 PM)

Ahistorical. All you had to do was keep your carriers 200 nm south of Lunga, and there was no way the KB could have gotten the drop on you. (See Fleet Tactics: Theory and Practice by Hughes to see why.) Don't worry--you won't be seeing those lovely new carriers. King will have your gonies first. I doubt Nimitz will be able to do for you what he was able to do for Fletcher.

Oh, sorry, this is a game, not reality...



RUPD3658 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 9:52:32 PM)

550 days for CVs to respawn.

I will have to look for you in the Opponants Wanted section[:D]



crsutton -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 10:38:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

550 days for CVs to respawn.

I will have to look for you in the Opponants Wanted section[:D]


Now I did not exactly say that I actually lost all of my carriers......did I?

Perhaps I am trying to lull you into a false sence of security.



RUPD3658 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 10:48:44 PM)

I play Japan. I already have a false sense of security[:D]



niceguy2005 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 11:22:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

I play Japan. I already have a false sense of security[:D]

ROFLMAO. [:D][:D][:D][:D]



rtrapasso -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 11:30:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

550 days for CVs to respawn.



in games i've played where i've lost 2 carriers on one day, with highly variable replacements, the ships started out on the list relatively close together, but after a while they were a month or two apart on the arrival list. So, take the 550 day as a goal, not as an absolute.



Knavey -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/27/2007 11:34:16 PM)

Sort of had this happen to me in a TEAM game.  Had laid a perfect ambush on KB.  It was operating south of Noumea and had lauched several strikes against Noumea, then chased some transports to the south.  I moved the USN CVs to block their retreat believing that they were close to out of bombs and high on fatigue.

Unfortunately this was VERY early in the WitP era and many of the doctrines players use today were not out there and so I had put CAP on 90% and grounded my DBs and TBs believing that I could chew up his fighters and launch the next day.

No so...glug glug glug went my CVs.

That game is still going on.  The Allies have survived without CVs.  Very slowly my LBA has made up for my shortfall in CVs...and then, the IJN made a mistake.  They went an island too far on trying to capture stuff.  They went after Suva.  Too many nearby bases to supress and I returned the favor by sinking at least 2 CVs and putting holes in several more.

Its just the fortunes of war...but you will recover.



Barb -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/28/2007 12:12:06 AM)

What to do, if all this happened?
You have a lot more LBA than Japs will ever had. Use them, cover your landings, supress his airfields, bomb his bases to the stone age and have some in reserve.
If KB dont shows, you will be slowly advancing (SoPaC and DEI is ideal for LBA suported operations due to proximity of bases). If it shows, bring in your reserve and send it to the bottom.
Or you should try to lay ambush to KB.

"Victory goes to the side with bigger reserves." (and that is the US)

"All warfare is based on deception.
Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable;
when using our forces, we must seem inactive;
when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away;
when far away, we must make him believe we are near."
Sun-tzu, art of war



mc3744 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/28/2007 1:04:47 AM)

And there's always Burma, Malaya, Indo-China ... [;)]
You need no ships there [:)]

I have a game in Nov '43 and I've just taken Hanoi. I jumped from Rangoon to Georgetown, but you can take a bit more time and move by land.
And from Darwin to the North you need no carriers at all. I didn't need any to take DEI back. All with LBA.

Cheer up! The Allies simply cannot loose. You've just made your opponent happy for a while ........... that is in your hypothetical hypothesis [:D] [:D]



AHFlattop -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/28/2007 2:25:05 AM)


quote:

And from Darwin to the North you need no carriers at all. I didn't need any to take DEI back. All with LBA.

Cheer up! The Allies simply cannot loose. You've just made your opponent happy for a while ........... that is in your hypothetical hypothesis [:D] [:D]




AHFlattop -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/28/2007 2:32:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AHFlattop


quote:

And from Darwin to the North you need no carriers at all. I didn't need any to take DEI back. All with LBA.

Cheer up! The Allies simply cannot loose. You've just made your opponent happy for a while ........... that is in your hypothetical hypothesis [:D] [:D]




Stupid laptop touchpad.....

What I was going to post was a question regarding Timor being in LRCAP range of P-38s stationed in Darwin? Any transports w/o aircover invading/unloading in Timor might be decimated. A few landings where 10-12 tranports and a few escorts get sunk and Jap points start to pile up. I think caution is needed when invasions w/o aircover might exposed the transport fleet to Bettys.



Gem35 -> RE: Ok, lets suppose I just lost all my carriers. (7/28/2007 3:36:50 AM)

If you did happen to lose all of your carriers, you could just say the result was gamey like the jap players do when they feel they are losing.[;)]



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