France has surrendered. Now what? (Full Version)

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jwarrenw13 -> France has surrendered. Now what? (8/1/2007 10:04:55 PM)

So France surrendered, Oct-Nov 1915. Now what? How I did it in a moment. But first when France surrendered there was a new border drawn granting Germany much of eastern France and the French (and British) troops have vanished. I saved the game and am taking a break. I'm sure I would figure out the answers to most of these when I go back to the game, but it is so easy just to ask, before I screw something up in this game.

So I have some immediate questions:
1. Is France permanently out of the game? I mean permenantly? Done? Finished?
2. Are British units prohibited from operating in conquered France? I.e., do I need to leave any units on the border just in case?
3. Can I invade conquered France? Not that I would want to with my other concerns, but is it possible? I would really like to have Paris, which was left inside the border of conquered France.

How I took France. Briefly, I just won a few very close battles that could have gone either way. It was a very near run thing. I staged my primary offensive through Belgium and Luxembourg and came in at Paris from the northeast. I took Paris and held it for two full turns in the face of vicious counterattacks. At the same time I launched an offensive in the south when France stripped down its lines to counter my advances in the north, giving France something else to worry about. And I took Verdun, which is critical I think for overall success. Everything seemed to work out.

All this was very bloody. I lost some units completely and right now have many units barely hanging on. In fact if I had been knocked out of Paris and the French had not surrendered in the last turn, I was concerned I would end up losing the game.

I also got lucky, so to speak, with poison gas. I put my research there and in the last two turns before France fell was able to use gas to soften up the enemy. It seemed to have a big effect.

And two more things. I used strategic rail movement in the last two turns to move full or nearly full strength units from the Russian front to the Western front and replace them with understrength units from the West. The Russians stood by and let me do this while concentrating their offensives against AH.

Also I learned how to use my headquarters and refit points economically and to wait and not always activate hqs on the first impulse.

So now I'm left to ponder what to do next. AH has conquered Serbia. I did that by a strong invasion right from the start and by letting the Russian front just barely hang on. I stripped some units from the Russian front on the initial mobilization to do that. It worked, and I've just finished reinforcing the Italian front, which is good because the Italians came in on the side of the Entente at the same time France surrendered.

And thanks for the word about using the resources of the Ottoman Empire. They make a huge difference. They will come into play for the first time the next turn. I took a peek after saving the game and was amazed at the number of economic points the Germans will have when I start play again. In fact when I saw that I realized that even if France had not fallen I would have been okay.

One turn ago I figured I was on the brink of defeat if the French and British kicked me out of Paris. Now France has fallen and I have an embarrassment of industrial riches.

I'm thinking I will lend a few reinforcements to the Austrians against Italy and kick the Russians out of eastern Germany and then decide how to win the game. Guess I have to keep a close eye on what the British are going to do next, too.

Great game.



SiTheSly -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/1/2007 10:35:07 PM)

Thats great that you got France to surrender in 1915 since the Russians if left unchecked become quite strong.

How bad is the German army at this stage? When you do a refit how many manpower points does it say you need? I find if it gets above 300 its very hard to ever get the German army back to full strength.

I've tried a few times to have a france first policy and it has never worked. Even taking Paris did not get them to surrender although as a fighting force they were defeated just lobbing a few arty barrages every few turns. The problem I had in that game was the German army hit its exhaustion rate which downgrades the quality of your troops and they were not good enough for the Russian hordes.

I also found in 1916 that the BE sarted mounting large offensive from Italy using the Italian HQs and then Austria started to waver after strasburg fell. Since the writing was on the wall I conceded defeat.

I have never used the gas does it affect your relations with non committed countries like America?

If you carry on let us know how you fair since I haven't seen a France first victory posted yet. I'm sure quite a few people have managed it but no one bothered posting a strategy. I have the Russia first strategy down pat.

Good luck

If France is like Russia then the answers are:

It becomes neutral and no ones troops can enter - no need to garrison the border.

You cannot reinvade.

Any resources that are now in your borders are counted as German in other words you do not get the captured penalty. very useful if you are given the Ruhr valley or whatever that valuable three hexes of raw materials is. Its worth four RM points - nice.



tgb -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/1/2007 10:45:36 PM)

I've taken the same tack, except ownership of Paris has swung back and forth, and is currently in my hands. I took Verdun first, iirc, and have just taken Nancy. Serbia is about to fall. It is September 1915.

What I can't figure out is why, with no major losses, my score went from +41 to -24, and German morale from 89% to 66% in the space of one impulse.



ojnab_bob -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/1/2007 11:02:33 PM)

Interesting - I'm having the same problem.  I knocked out France in early 1916, then transferred my boys south and east, but am making only minimal progress with my forces against 4-stack Russian troops, and the Anglo-Italians are blasting through the Alps and threatening Munich and Salzburg.  Austria is tottering and about to fall, and accordingly the easy victory I thought I had in 1916 looks pretty precarious right now...



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 12:11:05 AM)

you guys need to play vs a human opponent!![;)]



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 12:55:08 AM)

Sly, I needed 571 manpower points, lol, the next turn after France surrendered.  It is a wonder the German army has not mutinied.  I'm trying to rebuild but six months later I still need 500 points while fighting the Russians and the Anglo-Italians.  I have a big economic points boost now and am bringing in those Ottoman points, but it is hard to rebuild. 

At this point I've started some small spoiling offensives against the Russians and Anglo-Italians.  Both of them have launched offensives, and I messed up let the Italians take Trieste.  I've moved all the AH units from the Italian front to the Russian front, where they are holding their own, but it is costing them and AH is growing war weary.  I am really looking to build up to launch a big offensive against the Russians, in the direction east from the southern part of the front and south from the northern part.  I envision a Tannenburg type encirclement but probably won't get it.  It seems the defeat of France didn't help much at all, though I know in reality it did.

Oh, and I'm at 92 victory points. 

And, SMK, I don't play against humans.  Period.  That is one reason to find a game that actually gives you a challenge vs the AI.



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:03:17 AM)

Nothing wrong with wanting the easy wins [:D][:D]

GoA's AI is "better", I suspect, mainly because teh game mechanics are simple - movement paths are short (1 hex), you can only attack if you have activation points, etc.

But it's still only an AI[;)]



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:17:23 AM)

I think you are right about the short movement paths helping the AI, and the limited activation points.  The AI can re-evaluate after every impulse and turn, and it is harder to do 'gamey' things to the AI with the setup as it is.  Also the deck is stacked a little against the CP, and the CP really needs to take the offensive.  That would help the AI.  I have not played at the TE  (I'm just in my second game as the CP and doing much better now that I actually know what is going on.) and can see how the AI would have a harder time playing the CP.  But then there are those play balance things Frank has thrown in to help the CP.

But back to the human vs. AI opponent, there are just some of us who prefer the AI to human opponents.




FrankHunter -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:30:55 AM)

France cannot come back into the war once they're defeated.  To win an outright victory you now have to force the Russians to surrender.  As for the Brits (and later the USA), the AI will look for other fronts to deploy into, Italy will become the main British (and US) front.



*Lava* -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:45:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ojnab_bob

am making only minimal progress with my forces against 4-stack Russian troops


The Russian war machine ramps up fairly steeply as time passes. They are worse in quality... but they have quantity.

Ray (alias Lava)



SiTheSly -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:49:05 AM)

quote:

Sly, I needed 571 manpower points, lol, the next turn after France surrendered.


Damn, thats high. I don't think you can make it with that kind of losses, although saying that I have always had the slow bleed that the western front creates if you do not completely knock out France, plus of course no need for garrisons. The problem I found with having half strength units was that a Russian four strength stack would just blow away a 12 strength German A class and then it would be gone for good. Rebuilding completely destroyed units brings them back as B and also takes turn and then you have to SM to the front. Since SM is the last action of the turn if you send them into a hex being assaulted they won't make it.

Who has defeated France first and still won?

I will play PBEM since not only is it totally different I enjoy the banter you get as long as you get someone who is a not totally anal. I used to play with one guy who was a real bright spark and it was fun except in the end I noticed that if things were going too badly he would throw in the towel whereas I will always play to the death.

For example if we were playing GOA and he didn't take Paris by the end of 1914 or there abouts he would pack it in saying there was no way he could win from that position. I could see his point and when the games were close it really was a blast. You just have to deal with peoples oddball ways.

As mentioned earlier the simple game mechanics make a good oponent plus you can try a lot of different strategies and the AI hasn't played exactly the same way each time.



*Lava* -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 1:50:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly

Who has defeated France first and still won?


[sm=character0272.gif]

Ray (alias Lava)



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 2:03:27 AM)

Is that your horn you're tooting??!![:D]

(hey how do you import those off-site smilie gif's??)

the TRUE test is to knock out France early enough so that Italy comes in on your side....then there's really not much point in continuing.....did that a couple of times in the beta....




*Lava* -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 2:33:48 AM)

[image]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v732/lavaslair/CPVictory.jpg[/image]

Here is how my most recent game ended.

[sm=Cool-049.gif]

I think most guys are committing the same mistakes as the Generals during the war. Over the top and into machine gun fire doesn't work too well.

Have to pace yourself, keep your troops fit, prep your targets and keep the big picture in mind the whole time. A real balancing act..

Ray (alias Lava)



flintlock -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 3:40:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

(hey how do you import those off-site smilie gif's??)


Download whatever emoticon you want to display to your HDD. Then simply upload it back to Matrix's site via the tools provided (just make sure it's a gif or jpg format).



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 6:44:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly

quote:

Sly, I needed 571 manpower points, lol, the next turn after France surrendered.


Damn, thats high. I don't think you can make it with that kind of losses, although saying that I have always had the slow bleed that the western front creates if you do not completely knock out France, plus of course no need for garrisons. The problem I found with having half strength units was that a Russian four strength stack would just blow away a 12 strength German A class and then it would be gone for good. Rebuilding completely destroyed units brings them back as B and also takes turn and then you have to SM to the front. Since SM is the last action of the turn if you send them into a hex being assaulted they won't make it.



One thing I did was start pulling units off the front line when their strength ran down and I could not add replacements. I pulled several off the last couple of turns before Paris fell. Really France just losts its nerve, so to speak, to put it in non-game terms. The German army in the west was on the point of collapse.

So I actually have not lost too many units. And I am not putting them back in the line until I can add some numbers. However, now it has reached the points I'm going to have to go on the offensive against the Russians and Anglo-Italians. I thought with my economic points increases from the Ottomans and my conquests that I would have a lot easier going, but it is taking all those points just to get a little gain on my losses.



SiTheSly -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/2/2007 9:17:59 AM)

Well I've been inspired to take a shot at knocking out France first. I'll try the Paris route via Belgium.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/3/2007 7:38:27 AM)

Okay, I won.  As the CP.  Taking out France first.  82 victory points.  I'll briefly summarize it below, but I have some questions.

1.  The game asked if I wanted to play on into 1919?  How long can you play?  I didn't see anything about 1919 in the manual.

2.  What really happens when a country surrenders?  AH surrendered in 1917, and the Russians were kicked to the AH border.  But then the Russians re-entered AH and started taking cities.  That concerned me until I realized that they were never going to threaten Germany.  It would just take too long.  But in the case of France I was told in the thread that I didn't need to garrison the border because nothing would happen.  But can a country invade through a surrendered country?  Apparently so.  Or are different countries handled in different ways?

Now to continue my narrative from earlier in the thread. France surrendered, Italy entered the war, Bulgaria entered, the Ottoman rail line opened up, I had lots of Ottoman resource points, and I thought I would have it easy.  But it didn't work out like that.

My offensive against the Russians failed completely.  They were too strong by 1916.  They then began a slow sporadic advance against me, taking Danzig and then Konigsberg by the end of 1918.  They were bleeding me out.

And the Anglo-Italians launched an offensive that crossed the Alps.  For a while I thought I was done for, but they wore themselves out, and I scraped together a big enough offensive to counterattack in 1917.  Eventually in fact I recrossed the Alps, took Milan, and in Sept-Oct 1918, Italy surrendered.

That was about a year after AH surrendered.  But not before they and the Bulgarians took care of that pesky British landing at Salonika.  I thought I was done for again when AH surrendered just as I began making headway in the Alps.  But then I realized it would take forever for the Russians to advance across AH to the southern border of Germany.  So it actually worked out pretty well.

In other action the British took Basra, but I used the Ottomans to attack Egypt and tie down some British corps, though the Ottomans never actually took anything.

On the seas, Germany controlled the Baltic most of the time, the Ottomans controlled the Black Sea, and AH did a good job of contesting the eastern Med and raiding into the western Med until the surrendered.

I lost my submarines early in the war and never built any more, but I did use surface raiders sporadically in the Atlantic. 

The US made a brief appearance I saw one US corps in the Alps in 1917 and promptly destroyed it.  I never saw them again.  What happened to them?

So now I could play on into 1919, I assume, but Germany is wavering will probably surrender by the end of the year.  BUt can I play 1919?  How long can I play?



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/3/2007 10:29:55 AM)

Until Nov 1919.

IIRC the TE can cross Austria if Germany is still fighting, but cannot cross France once it surrendered.  I think a conquered Austria is treated much the same as a conquered Belgium or Serbia.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/3/2007 7:24:02 PM)

Thanks SMK.  Another question I forgot to ask.  About this "wavering" deal and exhaustion.  Is there any way to "unexhaust" a nation?  It looks to be an irreversible deal.  Am I right about that?  I guess I can slow it down but I can't stop it or reverse it.  Right?  And what can be done to slow it down?



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/4/2007 1:36:12 AM)

Yep - you can slow it down .......by not taking losses!![8D]

But you can never reverse it.



jnier -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/4/2007 5:56:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly
Who has defeated France first and still won?


I have been lucky enough to defeat France and eventually knock out Russia and won a decisive victory. It took a lot of luck, but here is what worked for me.

1. Invest in Poison Gas early. It can be decisive in defeating France.

2. Buy diplomatic points consistently. I buy one a turn. I use them first to delay italian entry, and after the italians enter, I use them to delay American entry. Seems to make a big difference.

3. After France is defeated, refit & entrench your army instead of immediately invading Russia/Italy. Let them attack you and spend all their resources on offesives. During this part of the war, I also invest heavily in Barrages, to wear down Russia, instead of wasting resources on offensives.

4. Be prepared for Italian entry. You need to establish a strong defensive positions BEFORE Italy declares war. Italy and BE will still push you back a few hexes, but the offensive will eventually lose momentum if you have enough corps on the italian front.

5. While on the defensive on the italian & russian fronts, clear out the Balkans. You want to have a fair amount troops in the Balkans so that you can quickly take out Greece and Romania after they declare war on you, rather than letting them hang around for awhile. Once Greece & Romania have surrenderred, you will finally have enough manpower to deal with Russia.

6. After the Balkans are cleared out, your army is in decent shape, and you have stabilized the Italian front, you can then concentrate everything you have on Russia. By this time (late 1917-early 1918) the Russians should be weakening, assuming that you have been able to wear them down throughout 1916/1917. Their troop quality will really go downhill in 1918 and makes them much easier to deal with.

Easier said than done, but it did work for me.



SiTheSly -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/4/2007 6:16:51 PM)

Nice strategy - makes sense to me, I tried again to get France to surrender and they finially did but in was at the end of 1916 after I was already starting to attack Russia. I had all of France from Paris in a line north to south but they still hung on and I had to leave them alone although they weren't a problem.

quote:

I use them to delay American entry


Strange I've never been able to influence the Americans since there is no overture button. Maybe I was trying too early or something. Also they have never been a threat in any of my games and I always go for unrestricted subs although haven't tried the poison gas yet. They normally declare war end of 1916 begining of 1917.



Jeffrey H. -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/4/2007 7:08:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: ojnab_bob

am making only minimal progress with my forces against 4-stack Russian troops


The Russian war machine ramps up fairly steeply as time passes. They are worse in quality... but they have quantity.

Ray (alias Lava)


"Quantity is a quality all it's own"



jwarrenw13 -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/5/2007 12:31:18 AM)

Game over.  End of 1919.  Major CP victory.  83 points.  In the last year I just slugged at the Russians and could feel them wearing out.  Made big gains in the north the last two turns, retaking Danzig and Konigsberg and breaking through the Russian border to take Limja on the last impulse of Nov-Dec 1919.  I saw the Brits come in to reinforce the Russian front.  They came in in the south, so I focused on the north.  I could have won just by sitting back and digging in really deep in 1919, but what the hell. 

Great game.  After I took out France I thought I had it made, but I still had to fight for my life over the next three years. 



SMK-at-work -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/5/2007 2:57:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SiTheSly

quote:

I use them to delay American entry


Strange I've never been able to influence the Americans since there is no overture button. Maybe I was trying too early or something. Also they have never been a threat in any of my games and I always go for unrestricted subs although haven't tried the poison gas yet. They normally declare war end of 1916 begining of 1917.


There should be an overture button - there's no time limit or other restrictions AFAIK. Take a screenshot perhaps & send it and hte save files to Frank?



*Lava* -> RE: France has surrendered. Now what? (8/5/2007 4:31:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jnier

I have been lucky enough to defeat France and eventually knock out Russia and won a decisive victory.


[sm=happy0065.gif]

Well done!

Ray (alias Lava)



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