Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (Full Version)

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ETF -> Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 12:18:25 AM)

This seems similar to Hearts of Iron 2 and its add-on's. I enjoyed that grand strategic wargame very much. Can anyone comment on the similarities or differences. Do you think I should pick this one up [:)]

Looks very good from the write ups and reviews.

Any comments?

Thx Guys.



Bossy573 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 2:29:58 AM)

I like it. Very different from HOI though. Not nearly as complicated, has many more operational atributes than HOI, etc.

The closest comparison is Strategic Command. I have been playing that since the original was released and this game could be a lot better a few patches down the road.


I say buy it. The game is very good, but you will encounter the occasional problem.



ETF -> RE: Really enjoy HI/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 2:33:00 AM)

hmm OK have Strategic Command ok nothing great though. Interesting you say that HOI is more complicated. Do you mean that this is more of a beer and pretzel type game.........which is fine but I'm looking for realism with some detail involved in the units and environment. Not sure if this will provide me with that level of detail I love :)

Will have to keep reading and see [:)]




Bossy573 -> RE: Really enjoy HI/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 2:49:25 AM)

The game has a few neat twists. For example, using the oil consumption rule and playing the Axis, you will find yourself measuring your moves very carefully. You will also find yourself coveting the oil hexes on the map. I'll give you an example. My second game I went into 1942 having conquered most of Europe and having launched Barbarossa pretty much on schedule. Took Moscow and was ready to launch a knock-out punch against the Russians with a drive to Perm. Couldn't do it though. Not enough oil. I was forced into a southern offensive into the Cacusus to take the oil fields first. I was amazed at how I was put into a historical situation that resulted in a historical solution.

As far as exact unit modeling, etc., is concerned, not really my bag, especially in a game of this scope.



LarryP -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 5:12:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573

I say buy it. The game is very good, but you will encounter the occasional problem.


Occasional problem???



Forwarn45 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 7:07:58 AM)

The game is definitely very different than HOI/HOI2. I would say there is no guarantee you will like it if you are looking for that kind of game.



targul -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 8:09:46 AM)

Retract this comment.



IainMcNeil -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 11:40:28 AM)

There is PBEM feedback, and we are working to improve it, but it is not working how Targul wanted, hence his post.



Bossy573 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 2:11:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Occasional problem???


It has its fair share, no doubt about it. But I'm still enjoying the game. [;)]



firepowerjohan -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 4:14:04 PM)

CEaW is similar to alot of WW2 games but all have their own focus which is good. Some have advanced diplomacy, some have a light empire building feeling to them and some have lots of detailed decision making for those who like micromanagement.

If you want light diplomacy, light management but advanced combat rules and large (operational feeling) map then CEaW is the closest game.

Whether the game is good or bad I cannot say being biased, so that is up to the customers [8D]



targul -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 5:31:51 PM)

Retract this comment by me.



LarryP -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 5:41:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bossy573


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

Occasional problem???


It has its fair share, no doubt about it. But I'm still enjoying the game. [;)]


OK. I guess I haven't played it long enough to find any... yet. [;)]



Romulus68 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/7/2007 11:19:10 PM)

Are we allowed to Upload or send out the Game Manual without breaking the Terms of Service? I think a lot of players on the ropes about buying the game (no Demo available) would love to read the manual for some game play insight.

Romulus



heroes99 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 1:32:04 AM)

Well if you are looking for HOI type of game then , you might find this a bit light for you but it is a really a very fun , addictive game.

Easy to get into and enough depth to keep playing and though the AI is a bit easy now but one thing you can be sure that the developer is trying their best to work things out

Regarding the PBEM ,personally the replay thing don't really bother me as the important thing is what current situation I am in now instead of the past action and the PBEM feedback is good enough for me though it does not hurt to have some extra info

Finally this is one of the best game i bought so far this year and with few more patches , it will become a classic

Cheers



Cheers



Krec -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 9:10:06 AM)

i am learning HOI2 right now and all i can say is ....who in the hell made this monster. Everytime i think i figired something out two more things pop up. i cant even see playin this against another person. i typically pause evry day at noon just to make sure all is going as expected. I am chiming in here because while i enjoy a challenge , i also enjoy a game that i dont have to think too much aka PG. This looks like that sort of game , but i am reading about now email replay and Carrier vs Fighters are a few sticky issues.
What i would like to know ..............is this game worth buying NOW!! I need a new easy game to play around with . My question........CEAW or SC2? Which is it and why.



heroes99 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 12:07:17 PM)

well if possible get both )  There is a demo for SC2 for you to try out

This 2 games are made  for people like you and me who want to play wargames but need a casual  wargame and just enough depth to continue on

If you have to made a choice , I do go for CEAW now as SC2 3D and tiles instead of hex get some minus point here

For SC2 , you can wait for the new expansion warfae and weapons , see how things turn out ...

Cheers




ravinhood -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 1:21:45 PM)

Why do squares vs hexes get minus points? As long as it's turn based should be all that matters. Squares just give more tactical play value vs hexes. You have double flanks and/or double rears and infilade left and infilade right. Also since I'm pretty upset with Battlefront and their last two kiddy clickfest releases I'd advise Commander:Europe at War. ;) But, if you want my ultimate advice and a game that gives you more bang for your buck I'd get Tillers Campaigns by Matrixgames. Oodles and Oodles of play value and longevity vs these other two you are asking about. ;) Thing about operational games is pretty much once you've played one you've played them all, but, tactical games now there's value and longevity because each and every battle is different. And tactical is just more fun to play. ;)



HansBolter -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 1:40:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Squares just give more tactical play value vs hexes.



That has to be the most bizzare logic I have ever encountered. Nothing could be further from the truth. The truth is just the opposite.



Jabba -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 2:03:05 PM)

He means that a square can be attacked from eight directions and a hex from six, so yes there are more tactical possibilities (more ways to deploy your troops against the enemy).



firepowerjohan -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 2:11:12 PM)

The way we thought of it with using hexes or squares is that the square has more directions so the combinations increase but it also affects the rule set in a negative way. Basically with more directions, front line, supply routes and other rules have to fit so that it is not too easy to surround units or outflank enemy or gang up lots of units on one adjacent unit.

On a tile based map you need more units to fill a front line. In Commander Europe at War since we use retreat rules you can still break a enemy front line and advance so we do not need tiles in order to provide extra angles of attack.

So, it is a complex thing but we are convinced that hexes are better for this type of 20th century front line war game.



HansBolter -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 3:42:50 PM)

Squares have four sides guys....not eight. That is why hexes have a distinct advantage over squares and the reason why hexes developed into the "standard" of the war board gaming industry in the first place.

Allowing movement/attack diagonally from square to square across the intersecting corners of the square is a method of improving upon the inherenet limitations of squares but is decidely artificial as the two opposing forces occupying those diagonally juxtaposed squares have no actual linear frontage facing each other and is therefore about as unrealistic as it gets.

The fact that SC2 is "square" based is one of the reasons I haven't tried it. I assume they overcame the inherent limitations of squares by using the artificial method described above which lessens it's appeal even more for me.



targul -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 5:52:46 PM)

I have revised my opinion of this game.  I now recommend it.  The designers are honest and attempting to work with the players to improve this game.

AI game is good but lacks activity south of France so that area still needs work and they have said they are working on it.

PBEM does not have playback but they are working on away to provide us with the information we need but playback is not possible due to coding.

IP games are excellant no problems.



Chris Bisson -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 7:10:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Squares have four sides guys....not eight. That is why hexes have a distinct advantage over squares and the reason why hexes developed into the "standard" of the war board gaming industry in the first place.

Allowing movement/attack diagonally from square to square across the intersecting corners of the square is a method of improving upon the inherenet limitations of squares but is decidely artificial as the two opposing forces occupying those diagonally juxtaposed squares have no actual linear frontage facing each other and is therefore about as unrealistic as it gets.

The fact that SC2 is "square" based is one of the reasons I haven't tried it. I assume they overcame the inherent limitations of squares by using the artificial method described above which lessens it's appeal even more for me.


I find that I must agree with your oppinion also. I have tried several times to "aquire" a taste for SC2. I just can't get into it due to the square spaces. I've never liked square based maps ever since AH introduced "Tactics" into boardgame form. It's alwasy been hexes for me, although I thought I could develop a taste (against my better judgement) for SC2. Yes there are 4 sides to a square, wich are not enough. Also you can move in a diagonal direction in a square based system and end up moving much farther in lineal space compared to moving directly sideways or forward. VERY unrealistic IMO and another reason why hexes are automaticly better. What were they thinking?[X(]



Jabba -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 8:56:22 PM)

Both squares and hexes are artificial impositions and each have their pros and cons. Personally I prefer hexes for a game like this.

The reason hexes are generally preferred to squares is not about facing but distance. The six adjacent hexes are all equidistant from the (centre of the) original one, but the eight adjoining squares are not.

Neither hexes nor squares tell you anything about which way a unit is facing. That's something you simply infer from the situation on the board. There is no law of nature which says you cannot move or attack diagonally out of a square. I have encountered various games which employ squares (e.g. Civilization series, Imperialism, SC2) and have not yet seen a game in which you cannot move or attack across diagonals (unless you are a rook I suppose!).

Note that when you use a map reference to locate something (as real armies do) you are in effect identifying a square of territory. We are also living in a "square" world when we refer to the points of the compass. So despite their drawbacks squares must have their uses. They were included in SC2 because of the greater tactical possibilities (the original point made by Ravinhood, and not at all illogical).

All a bit of a pedantic discussion really. HOI2 uses area movement which is even more sacreligious I suppose.



HansBolter -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 9:50:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jabba

There is no law of nature which says you cannot move or attack diagonally out of a square.


Absolutely true. However, as soon as one implements a mechanism that allows for diagonal movement/attack out of a squre one begins treating the square like a pseudo octagon, which does indeed have benefits over both squares and hexagons.

The drawback of treating squares like pseudo octagons is exactly the distance problem you outlined. If one wants octagonal movement then one should just use octagons and be done with it.

This, however, is not possible as octagons don't match up together to greate a grid the way squares and heagons do.

So one is faced with the choice of getting greater tactical flexibility by treating squares as octagons and sacrificing distance scale in the process or accpting the compromise of lesser tactical flexibility, but maintaining accuracy of distance scale with hexagons..........



targul -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/8/2007 10:29:27 PM)

I too have never liked squares except when I was young and played Tactics II but hexes had not been used in war games until AVH started using them after that.

My personnal preference is diffently the hex but there was one remark that really hit home here.  In real life the military uses squares.  I was a FO for many years and we always thought in squares.  That was how you determined your coordinates and gives the FDC a quadrant for fire.

With that in mind I will reconsider my gut dislike for the square. 



Bossy573 -> RE: Really enjoy HOI2/DD Will I also like this one? (8/9/2007 2:22:10 AM)

Man, I am admittedly a pretty lousy player when it comes to wargames but I must say the AI in Russia just put a heckuva beating on me. First game I've played where I gave the slider a nudge to the Allies advantage. The AI was constantly cutting me off from supply, biting deep into my flanks, the works. Great and impressive stuff.
The only place where it was easy was, as Targul pointed out, the mid-East. I don't care how much you want to stretch the imagination, the Italians are not rolling up the Brits with ease. And where is Torch?



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