Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (Full Version)

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gdpsnake -> Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:04:48 AM)

Greece entered the war as ET so I sent some CP units to deal with it. The Brits landed at Salonika with ONE unit on a previous impulse which I surrounded and attacked with 4 A quality full strenght CP units (Hex stacking is 14.) Imagine my surprise at the combat results which put GB strength at 328!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even in my wildest dreams NO COUNTRY should be able to put that much in a hex. I assume the GB AI sea transported into the hex which is why 1 unit became about 10 BUT COME ON..stacking is stacking or don't have a stacking rule. If you can only cram so many men and guns into a hex then you shouldn't be able to do it on a seaborne transfer either. Even at their best, the CP can put maybe 104 strength in a 14 stack hex.
And by the way, how come these same ten units keep flip flopping between Alexandria and Salonika every impulse? I know because first they destroyed my attack in Greece then destroyed my attack in Alexandria from Turkey.
Something is very insane here considering my combined Turkish/Austrian/Italian (yes, I got Italy as a CP) Navy rules the Eastern and Western Med but those blokes just move around like crazy.
Also, on the Eastern front during the CP activation phase, most Russians are no where to be seen only to show up 4 deep in every empty hex during move time. Does the AI get unlimited strategic moves because it happens every impulse everywhere.
Can someone explain this please?



j campbell -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:08:24 AM)

it must be a combat glitch of some sort. it is impossible for them to amass that much Firepower (even with assault troops) in 1 hex-even at trench lv 4 if i am correct -which i dout it was.  Tr 4 = 20% increase and assault troops increase by a factor of 1.3 to str and 10% to hit (absolutely the best technology but rather expensive).  



gdpsnake -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:10:54 AM)

This was 1916 and I know that the entrench level was zero before the attack. As for assault troops, I think 1916 is too early. Also no tanks or gas or art for the bloke and no aircraft either. I'm thinking it must be some glitch in seaborne transfer or amphibious landing. Maybe the units were 'at sea' in the hex but added to the stack? Frankly I don't know but there were over 10 GB counters in the hex at the attack.



FrankHunter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:12:24 AM)

I can check why the TE modified strength was 238.  Just send me your autosave-move file and I'll run it here.

And no, the AI does not get unlimited strategic moves.



gdpsnake -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:14:19 AM)

Frank, that was 328 not 238. I'll see if I have a save game of that moment.



FrankHunter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:16:23 AM)

okay, my email is fhunter@telus.net



j campbell -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 1:19:27 AM)

the highest basic attack -lv 4 trench plus assault troops would be 34x 4 x 1.8   a cav unit of 4 x 1.8

this is a 28 str unit (intrinsic) plus a lv 4 tr (20% str modifier- +6) x 1.3 for being assault troops (9 readiness /5assualt) plus the cav unit.

am i missing something?



gdpsnake -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 2:39:14 AM)

OK,
For those listening, I tried to duplicate and here is one result:
Bloke side of combat result.
INF 189
CAV 0
TANKS 0
ASSAULT 0
Trench 1
Urban 1 (Salonika)
Quality 7
Readiness 9
FP 305 (Not the 328 I saw before, but close.)
So anyone know how the bloke stacked 189 Infantry factors in a single urban hex?



SMK-at-work -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 3:02:49 AM)

Well boyo, y'see that'd be the Welsh mining corps - they're all a bit shorter y'see, having t' fit doon 'pit.  So there can be more of them y'see.....and there's all them that's unner-gound too like....[:D][:D]



hjaco -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 9:52:30 AM)

Only explanation i can come of is Greek mobilized units in Salonika on a fully stacked British stack.



gdpsnake -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 6:29:51 PM)

nope,
Replicated the effect a few times and the blokes were overstacked by 3, 5 or 6 corps or roughly up to 30 stacking points in the hex.

I think this is a problem.....



hjaco -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 6:45:41 PM)

Seems like a prime target for your artillery guys [:D]



MorningDew -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 9:19:57 PM)

I've discovered you can overstack by Strategic Moving into a hex.



hjaco -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/7/2007 10:11:51 PM)

Or by emptying a hex move new units into it and cancel the original movement orders.



MorningDew -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 12:17:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Or by emptying a hex move new units into it and cancel the original movement orders.


Ahh. Would seem you should be able to order the units to these locations, but they orders should not be executed if they result in overstacking.

Ironically, there is overstacking in the German Western Front line in the startup???



SMK-at-work -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 12:19:18 AM)

You can also overstack by sending the units from a hex to attack, then moving more units into the hex and having the attack fail so that those units retreat back into it.

In all cases however you do not get any extra ability to attack any one hex (although you can attack more hexes), the hex becomes a massive artillery target, and units will be randomly moved out of the hex by the system if posible in order to meet the stacking limits.

Possibly a good change would be to limit the number of stacking points that can attack from the hex as that is the only benefit.



JD Walter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 5:29:01 AM)

quote:

FP 305 (Not the 328 I saw before, but close.)
So anyone know how the bloke stacked 189 Infantry factors in a single urban hex?


Obviously the Starship Enterprise!

C'mon guys - don't you know your Star Trek?![:D]



FrankHunter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 6:01:15 AM)

After viewing his saved game, I explained to gdpsnake what was going on.  The British were overstacked at Salonika because they were amphibiously moving new units to the port while at the same time ordering those already there to move elsewhere.  But the attack on the port precluded the movement from the port but of course doesn't stop the new units arriving.

For anyone else interested, the alternative to allowing overstacking would mean the immediate elimination of any unit forced to retreat if the hex behind it was full of friendly units.  Originally that was the case and meant that it was bad tactics to moves stacks of forces one behind the other because if the front-most stack was defeated they'd be eliminated since they wouldn't be able to retreat.  That seemed pretty gamey to me and clearly it would make a Sclieffen-type plan impossible to carry out.   As for overstacking due to movement, unlike a player the AI will never intentionally overstack.  I simply don't allow it to.  But it can happen anyway such as was the case here.




flintlock -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 7:29:12 AM)

The solution you opted for seems like a good compromise.



ojnab_bob -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 5:28:34 PM)

As a further compromise, may i suggest leaving the rules as they are, but capping the number of infantry factors that can take part in defense of an overstacked position at, say, 100?  The rationale would be that the other corps would be too crowded in there to contribute to the defense of the hex, and it would eliminate some of the remaining gaminess.



FrankHunter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/8/2007 5:36:18 PM)

Yes, I think perhaps a small change so that only the best units up to the stacking limit can be involved in the defence.



JD Walter -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/9/2007 7:46:59 PM)

Hi Frank,

quote:

But the attack on the port precluded the movement from the port but of course doesn't stop the new units arriving.


Perhaps another way you could handle this would be to allow any units which are in excess of the stacking limits to perform their move into an adjacent hex, on the concept that the defending forces can "screen" this movement and allow a flanking action.

It would reward continued investment by a player in an amphibious operation, or one who is bringing numerical superiority to bear on a point. Just a thought; I don't know how hard it might be to change this in your code.



hjaco -> RE: Please explain how GB got 328 strength in a hex?!! (8/9/2007 9:54:02 PM)

Perhaps Def Zep but that does not take into account what should happen if, there are no empty hexes available to move into....



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