54 Bomb Hits on a CV (Full Version)

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Dive Bomber1 -> 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/11/2007 11:02:34 PM)

In mid-January 1942 in one of my pbems my opponent moved much of the US Pacific fleet to Noumea. I had been scouting Noumea with long range patrol planes and sub-based Glens so I had a pretty good idea that he had a number of ships at the base. I therefore sent the "KB+" (6 CVs + 2 CVLs) down for a raid.

As luck would have it, on the first day that my ships were within striking range of Noumea ( a hex or so NE of the northern tip of New Caledonia) the KB was spotted by Allied patrol planes and a sizable strike of US fighters and 2E bombers flew out for an attack. Fortunately, the CAP over the KB took care of the Allied attack. Subsequently, however, only one Japanese air unit flew over Noumea and they couldn't find a target. Thus my surprise was compromised for no result other than the eradication of a large number of US Army fighters and 2E bombers.

I decided to continue the mission anyway and sent the KB down along the west coast of New Caledonia to a point a couple of hexes to the west of Noumea. I was hoping to catch some of the Allied TFs before they could escape from the region. However, the next turn to my surprise not only were the Allied TFs and ships still around, but a number of combat TFs appeared around my old position just past the northern tip of New Caledonia.

There were Allied CVs in those northern TFs and they got off their air strikes first, but the CAP over the KB was able to take care of all of the attacks:

US Air Attack Number 1:

Day Air attack on TF at 65,112

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 83

Allied aircraft
F2A Buffalo x 6
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11
SBD Dauntless x 67

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 3 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F2A Buffalo: 6 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
SBD Dauntless: 59 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu
CV Zuikaku

US Air Attack Number 2:

Day Air attack on TF at 65,112

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 53

Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 17

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless: 16 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CL Abukuma

The morning air phase ended and I was wondering if the KB would again miss out on any attacks despite the large number of targets which were scouted all around New Caledonia. Then in the afternoon air phase the planes of the KB finally took to the air:

Japanese Air Attack Number 1:

Day Air attack on TF at 67,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 58
D3A Val x 72
B5N Kate x 103

Allied aircraft
F2A Buffalo x 5
F4F-3 Wildcat x 10

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 4 destroyed
D3A Val: 4 destroyed, 23 damaged
B5N Kate: 7 destroyed, 30 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F2A Buffalo: 5 destroyed
F4F-3 Wildcat: 9 destroyed

Allied Ships
CA Portland, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CA Minneapolis
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 9, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Craven
DD Conyngham

Japanese Air Attack Number 2:

Day Air attack on TF at 67,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
D3A Val x 21
B5N Kate x 21

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 2 damaged
B5N Kate: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Patterson
CA Chicago, Bomb hits 1
CA Portland, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese Air Attack Number 3:

Day Air attack on TF at 67,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
D3A Val x 21

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA New Orleans, on fire, heavy damage

Japanese Air Attack Number 4:

Day Air attack on TF at 67,110

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
D3A Val x 24
B5N Kate x 45

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A Val: 1 destroyed
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied Ships
CA Minneapolis
CA New Orleans, on fire, heavy damage
DD Humphreys, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Then at the end of the day there was one more attack on a US TF that I hadn't realized was around:

Japanese Air Attack Number 5:

Day Air attack on TF at 68,108

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 76
D3A Val x 101
B5N Kate x 108

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
D3A Val: 2 destroyed, 11 damaged
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Enterprise, Bomb hits 54, on fire, heavy damage
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 2
CA Northampton, Bomb hits 3, on fire
CA Salt Lake City, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CA Chester, Bomb hits 3, on fire
DD Dale, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Astoria

As one would hope after such a pounding, the three US CVs all sank at the end of the turn.

While I was going over the results a couple of things stood out to me. First off, of course, were the 54 bomb hits on the Enterprise. That sort of "total overkill" shows up some times in surface combat results when one small ship will sometimes get hit 20 or 30 times before sinking. But 54 bomb hits on a CV just boggles the mind. [X(] [X(] [X(]

The other thing that stood out was how the CVs received so many more hits than the cruisers that were attacked even when there were no CVs around. Look at Japanese Air Attack Number 4 as an example: 67 out of the 69 attacking bombers launched their weapons and there was only one hit. Yet in Japanese Air Attack Number 5 slightly more than three times as many bombers got 59 hits, albeit mostly on the CV. For some reason CVs seem to be much easier targets to hit than surface combat ships.

In any event, this raid certainly convinced me of the value of keeping the KB together.




Miller -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 12:00:45 AM)

Do Vals drop 60kg bombs in WITP like they do in UV? If so it may explain the total.

IIRC Hermes took 40 bomb hits (but she might have been stationary).




String -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 12:14:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do Vals drop 60kg bombs in WITP like they do in UV? If so it may explain the total.

IIRC Hermes took 40 bomb hits (but she might have been stationary).


In CHS they do.




wild_Willie2 -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 12:17:30 AM)

No, planes can ONLY carry a single bomb type in WITP. So no 60KG bombs by Vals (if they are used in CHS they are not actually "dropped", and only serve as window dressing (at least that is what I concluded by reading Nik's Mare bellum mod development journal) .

The problem with this result is the fact that ships can ONLY sink after an attack phase has ended. So during the attack phase there was a CV to attack (although a badly damaged one) and as CV's are by far the most prominent targets on the game's "hitlist" al the attack planes went for it.

You must undoubtably have seen messages like this " Ak Sanbu maru hit by 6 aerial torpedo's", 2 torpedo's would sink a transport ship almost immediatly, but as the game can not "sink" her before the attack phase is over she gets hit over and over again... 






castor troy -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 12:29:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do Vals drop 60kg bombs in WITP like they do in UV? If so it may explain the total.

IIRC Hermes took 40 bomb hits (but she might have been stationary).



not in stock. A2A results pretty much looks like stock...




Dive Bomber1 -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 12:42:15 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Miller

Do Vals drop 60kg bombs in WITP like they do in UV? If so it may explain the total.

IIRC Hermes took 40 bomb hits (but she might have been stationary).



not in stock. A2A results pretty much looks like stock...


Correct, this is a stock game. AFAI remember, those were 250 KG bombs.

DB




niceguy2005 -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 1:48:25 AM)

I have a couple of comments. First 54 bomb hits may not really be that extreme...well ok it is extreme, but not completely beyond historical precedent. Historically speaking it is actually quite hard to sink a CV with only bombs. Usually the CV would be so damaged it would be scuttled perhaps, but sunk outright would be unlikely.

Second is that in WitP I have noticed that once a ship is hit it is orders of magnitude easier to hit again, which is the reason planes seem to gang up on just a few ships and run up the hit totals. If you had gotten a hit on a CA its probably 10 times more likely it would have been hit many times.




fcam1387 -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 5:58:53 AM)

54 bomb hits on a CV boggles the mind??? Try 61 250 kg AP bomb hits on the Boise - that's overkill!




goodboyladdie -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 11:37:25 AM)

But Boise needs that many hits to make sure that she does not come back to haunt you...[:'(]




String -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/12/2007 11:49:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: goodboyladdie

But Boise needs that many hits to make sure that she does not come back to haunt you...[:'(]


And still it does, allied cruiser respawn FTW!




Gem35 -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/13/2007 5:13:30 AM)

Who is your opponent, I'd love to play against him.[;)]




crsutton -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/13/2007 5:39:32 AM)

Pilots-especially American pilots early in the war tended to fixate on targets. Midway is a perfect example-where only three SBDs of the initial attack managed to attack the Kaga (or was it the Akagi) and that was only when the leader of that squadron noticed that the other carriers were getting all the attention. He was only able to divert his three plane flight, not the others. One 1000 pound bomb hit did her in though.

So, it is not really out of line in this game. The only difference is that we  have massive strikes in the game. But a 36 plane attack would be over in a matter of minutes, a 100 plane attack might go fairly quick as well. Later in the war when the Allies were not facing opposition, they could take thier time and pick and choose targets. But against a massive CAP, nobody would have waited around.  The bombs would all hit in very rapid sucession and those ships can be tough. As said before 500 lb bombs in themselves would not necessarily destroy a carriers hull. Well...maybe 56 of them would.




Jmsimer -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/13/2007 9:28:19 PM)

Yes, I rather suspect that after the first 32 bomb hits, the CV's ability to maneuver might be slightly reduced. Just a theory.




Coach Z -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/13/2007 10:55:37 PM)

It was the AKAGI in the initial post battle reports no American Dive Bomber group claimed hitting the KAGA...wonder how it sunk?

(thats a joke...by the way)




Feinder -> RE: 54 Bomb Hits on a CV (8/13/2007 11:38:48 PM)

I have read that USN squadrons to carrier groups, had "fairly simple" rules of engagment.  These might be uniform with in the squadrons of a carrier or a ground unit, but would not necessarily been extended to groups from multiple carriers operating together.

Some squadrons would have one flight (about 8 aircraft) attack the "largest target", and the other flight attack "the next largest".  The flight would split into two sections (about 4 aircraft), each attacking in sequence.  Or another squadron might have something like "the nearest target", and the next flight attacks "the next nearest" target.

Either way, the diretives are simple (certainly necessary under combat conditions), but potentially conflicting, esp if operating with muliple groups with conflicting directives.  Example, if Enterprise DBs attack by order of size (largest, then smallest), and Horents DBS come in attacking ships in order of proximity, you suddenly have 16+ aircraft over the target.  Then you need the flight CO to make the decision that there is over-kill (such as what happened vs. Kaga at Midway), and for him to make another run another eligble target (actually, I'm fairly sure this also happened at Midway, somebody diverted from the Kaga attack, and actually cut off the DBs from another carrier who, according to their directive, were attacking the proper target). And in the case of Akagi, she was all but skipped until one of the section leaders took his 3(?) planes in to attack a flight deck that wasn't already smoking.

Either way, how does that saying go, "No plan survives contact with the enemy."

-F-




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