RE: gunfight at Flavion (Full Version)

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The Rattler -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (9/13/2007 2:23:04 PM)

Fighting Frenchman is a good scenario as well for some training and a test of your tactics against those french monsters.



Przemos19 -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/5/2008 1:45:13 AM)

I played this scenario last weekend and achieved draw if I recall corectly.. Panzer IV are the most useful - 8 hard attack, while Panzer IIIF and czech panzers 6 hard attack at point-blank range. I used smoke and assaults conducted by, in normal way, useless Pz II on single disrupted platoons. (1-2 vehicles each). Anyway very frustrating scenario. Like in East Front then you move Pz38t against t-34 and KV-1/8 in 1942 in southern front.



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/6/2008 4:53:04 AM)

Okay, so I got curious and played this. I'm assuming you've all been playing the AI since that's what the scenario intends. I played with armor facing off since the AI doesn't deal with it very well. All I can say is concentrate, fire for disruptions, and annihilating assaults.

[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Flavion1.jpg[/image]

Note the loss of 55 CharB, very few by direct fire, mainly assault.



[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Flavion2.jpg[/image]

Fire only to disrupt, then use superior numbers and mobility for surrounded assaults.



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/6/2008 5:21:48 PM)

Wow.  That's impressive.  I'll have to give it another shot -- er -- assault.



Jason Petho -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/6/2008 5:46:34 PM)

Most impressive, XLVIII Pz. Korp!

Amazing what can be accomplished with such skill!

Like chess, the game is easy to learn, but difficult to master.

Jason Petho



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/7/2008 4:06:17 AM)

Thanks Jason.

And for anyone else reading this, what I really wanted to demonstrate particularly to people still learning this venerable game is how tactics have to be adopted to the situation. The Germans don't stand a chance if they try to do a toe to toe gunfight (despite the title) so another tactic must be found; disrupt, surround, assault. When I played this I advanced on three axis until I located most of the French forces. I then concentrated in the center and north. For some reason the AI rolled out into open terrain to sit and engage. I'd then pick the hexes I could isolate and assault. After burning up the AI's op-fire with light vehicles at longer ranges my MkIV's with leaders would close to a range of 2, most of the time with enough AP's for two shots remaining. These vehicles would engage as many targets as they could within that 2 hex range at 1-1 odds looking for disruptions. If I didn't get enough disruptions where I needed them the higher strength (5SP) Pz 35t's would close to a range of one (remember we exhausted most of the French op-fire) engaging at 1-2 odds. The higher strength platoons give more die rolls on the 1-2 table. This was usually enough to get the disruptions I required then the light vehicles and MkIII's would swarm on the assault. Many times the assaults were planned in an order that would retreat French units into adjacent hexes already containing more disrupted French units, setting up that hex for a final annihilating assault. One of these "chain assaults" resulted in the capture of 6 platoons of Char B's.

I remember when I first started playing CS back when it came out, I ran into T-34's and me with MkIII's and 38t's. I was ready to throw the CD through the monitor it was so frustrating... and that was playing the AI. I don't want to even think what human controled T-34's would've done to me. But I kept plugging away until I saw by accident just how powerful well executed assaults could be.

So after trying this scenario I figured I'd post my results and maybe keep some frustrated gamers from throwing their CD through their monitor. [:D]



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/7/2008 5:29:07 AM)

Thanks 48 Panzer Corps.  If left to my own devices, I'd still be waiting to invent the wheel.



dominican -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/18/2008 5:44:36 PM)

Tried this scenario last night for the first time and barely managed a Draw with 102 points. About half way through it dawned on me, not having read this thread first - the power of the Axis is in the assault in this scenario - and the situation improved. Captured and held the 25 point VP hex in the south and the 50 VP hex in the east, but combat casualties were obviously about equal, only a slight plus on my side. Armor facing was turned off, the other options all on. Stretching the French defenses by going for two VP hexes at the same time helped, I think. The early German forces headed east then north while the reinforcements went up the center of the map.

48 PzK's showing was above and beyond.



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/19/2008 8:14:55 AM)

Well, I tried to focus more on assaults, and I improved my score to 251 -- still a minor victory, but an improvement over my previous best by 50 points.  The strength point differential was 248 to 72, and I had 75 hex VP.  I still had problems with the layering of French tanks.  Getting the French tanks disrupted and isolated was difficult.  Towards the end of the game, when the French tanks were attempting to retake the VP hexes, they would leave themselves open to isolation, but they still had to be disrupted.

For me, focusing on the assault aspect is like playing left-handed.  It makes sense though, because the German tanks can play on an even field or perhaps even with an advantage when viewed from the assault perspective.



auHobbes37 -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/25/2008 5:24:15 PM)

Now if someone will show us how to get a Major Victory in RS's "Blitzkreig in Malaya" as the Japanese. I managed to obtain, after several tries, a marginal Minor Victory.



blackcloud6 -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/27/2008 4:22:57 AM)

I played this last night and got a draw, missing a minor vic by 16 points. The best thing is to avoid a fight as much as possible and bypass the Char B1 Bis tanks. Keep a force threatening them and the 25 point Obj and you will cause most of them to stay in the big open area. set up for assaults on the 50 point OBJs in the last two turns . get a Mark III in the rear of the B1 defending the OBJ and disrupt it then assault with a mob of tanks from different directions. Hunt down the the French HQs and leaders and get points. Don't get in standing gun fights with the B1s. You'll loose.

I think a minor victory is possible if you flank the French constantly and avoid the fights until really necessary.



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/27/2008 8:05:29 AM)

Hello auHobbes37

Saw your post last night and decided to give this one a try.

Have you been trying to make your points by killing Brits? Your main objective needs to be exiting the map and by default taking the VP hexes. Don't waste any effort chasing Brit units. Focus and push relentlessly.

I was surprised by how much AT the Brits had, and I lost more than one loaded truck to hidden positions, but by turn 6 I was across the river fighting in the town. Remember the name of the scenario is Blitzkrieg in Malaya. Feel free to lead with your armor. Brit infantry won't do too much to them and unless you move next to a 2 pounder at pointblank you should be able to survive most AT fire. When the strongpoints are spotted use that nice artillery to suppress them and assault. I was able to take at least 7-8 Brit platoons in the town by surrounded assaults. Stay concentrated on your objectives. I never left the center of the map, my operation area was contained between the yellow lines.

[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Malaya2.jpg[/image]

Pushing hard with the tanks will pick up the ground you need as the AI tends to fall back in this one. Don't ever forget you win this by leaving the map. Note; better than half my victory points were gained by exit. Hope this helps.

[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Malaya.jpg[/image]



auHobbes37 -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/27/2008 4:33:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: XLVIII Pz. Korp

Hello auHobbes37

Saw your post last night and decided to give this one a try.

Have you been trying to make your points by killing Brits? Your main objective needs to be exiting the map and by default taking the VP hexes. Don't waste any effort chasing Brit units. Focus and push relentlessly.

I was surprised by how much AT the Brits had, and I lost more than one loaded truck to hidden positions, but by turn 6 I was across the river fighting in the town. Remember the name of the scenario is Blitzkrieg in Malaya. Feel free to lead with your armor. Brit infantry won't do too much to them and unless you move next to a 2 pounder at pointblank you should be able to survive most AT fire. When the strongpoints are spotted use that nice artillery to suppress them and assault. I was able to take at least 7-8 Brit platoons in the town by surrounded assaults. Stay concentrated on your objectives. I never left the center of the map, my operation area was contained between the yellow lines.

[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Malaya2.jpg[/image]

Pushing hard with the tanks will pick up the ground you need as the AI tends to fall back in this one. Don't ever forget you win this by leaving the map. Note; better than half my victory points were gained by exit. Hope this helps.

[image]http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg256/kbh92/Malaya.jpg[/image]

Thanks. I actually got the marginal minor victory by trying to flank, haven't tried up the gut.

I find RS as the Japanese to be the most challenging of all nationalities -- here's hoping 1.03 has a "Starvation island" LCG with Dai Nippon on Guadacanal.



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/28/2008 7:25:25 AM)

XLVIII Panzer Korp's advice on "Gunfight at Flavion" continues to pay dividends.  I finally got a major victory -- 336 points.  I had a 361 to 100 SP advantage and 75 hex VPs.  Thanks again, XLVIII Panzer Korps.



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/28/2008 7:43:16 AM)

Great news and congratulations 1925frank!! [sm=00000436.gif] Glad to have been of assistance. Now you have a deadly new weapon in your arsenal to pummel H2H opponets.

Happy Hunting! [sm=Evil-210.gif]



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/28/2008 5:36:14 PM)

I hadn't noticed this before, but when you assault and capture enemy tanks, they don't register as wrecked vehicles in the hex.  Was I mistaken? Is this how it really works? 

Because I've experienced bridges choked wth wrecks before (trucks that the AI had parked on the bridge), this might change my tactics when trying to take the bridge.  I shot at the trucks to disrupt them but ended up only destroying them and cluttering the bridge with wrecks, which impeded my ability to move high SP vehicle platoons/squadrons over the bridge.  Next time I may just assault and hope they retreat or are captured.

I would imagine a capture would be more likely with overwhelming forces. Anyone know how the computer decides whether the enemy is destroyed or captured?



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/29/2008 6:08:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I hadn't noticed this before, but when you assault and capture enemy tanks, they don't register as wrecked vehicles in the hex.  Was I mistaken? Is this how it really works? 


Correct. Wrecks will only be created by destroyed hard vehicles noy captured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Because I've experienced bridges choked wth wrecks before (trucks that the AI had parked on the bridge), this might change my tactics when trying to take the bridge.  I shot at the trucks to disrupt them but ended up only destroying them and cluttering the bridge with wrecks, which impeded my ability to move high SP vehicle platoons/squadrons over the bridge.  Next time I may just assault and hope they retreat or are captured.


If you were leaving wrecks on a bridge you could not have been firing at trucks, these are soft targets which leave no wreckage. Possibly halftracks?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I would imagine a capture would be more likely with overwhelming forces. Anyone know how the computer decides whether the enemy is destroyed or captured?


Typically units are more likely to be captured when the defending unit is surrounded.. no path of retreat open without moving into a hex adjacent to an enemy unit that is not also friendly occupied.

Another point to consider is that a strong enough attacker can sometimes force the defender to retreat w/o the defender being disrupted. Note I said strong enough.

Similarly there are some situations, not readily apparent to some players where undisrupted defenders that do not match up well against the attacker can be overcome with assaults. I recall two recent situations; my opponent had an undisrupted 2 SP JagdPnthr platoon in open terrain with good LOS to my rear areas. All of my AT fire bounced off. In desperation I assaulted with a 4SP US rifle platoon, disrupted the JgdPnthrs and forced their retreat. Why? the defender did not match up well against the attacker, he was outnumbered and TD's do not have very good assault strengths. In another scenario I accidentally launched an assault with a full strength Sov SMG unit (assault factor 9) against a full strength PzIV platoon that I thought was disrupted. To my amazement the SMG unit eliminated the MkIV's. Soviet SMG inf are deadly on the assault, that is their strength, any other use is a waste of their capabilities.

Assaults are one of the real game winner tactics. Master them and you'll do well.

Hope this helps and answers some of your questions. [8D]



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/29/2008 6:25:14 PM)

Thank you, XLVIII Panzer Korps, that's very helpful.  I wasn't sure if I was seeing that correctly.  

Regarding the unexpectedly good results in assaults, my recollection is the computer first calculates your assault value against the defender's defense value and resolves the assault, but then it also conducts a counter-assault, where the computer calculates the defensive units' assault value against your defense value, and that is where you apparently can procure some spectacular results if the opponent's assault value is very low.  Is that what you're referring to?  I always wondered why the counter-assault was included.  I don't know what the designer was trying to capture by including the counter-assault.  Perhaps someone with greater military knowledge could enlighten me.



XLVIIIPzKorp -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/29/2008 10:05:14 PM)

You are correct with regards to an assault and counter assault. I believe the counter assault is included to reflect the simultaneous "in your face" type of combat assaults reflect.

For example an assault in built up terrain portrays units kicking doors, pitching grenades, and clearing structures room by room, forcing the enemy from an area. Similarly a vehicle assaulting infantry in rural terrain is almost an overrun, an attempt to boot the defnders from the hex. In both cases the defender is not going to be quietly sitting back while the attacker has his way. Counterfire, grenade bundles, magnetic mines, etc will all be flying from the defender.

There is defensive fire while you move so think of the counter assault as defensive fire during assaults. The key is to either bust up the defender so badly (disrupt) before assaults, as to make his counter ineffective, or assault undirupted units that are vulnerable; artilllery, mortars, HQ's, etc. The point I was making earlier was how other sometimes not so apparent undisrupted units like TD's can be vulnerable to assaults.



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/30/2008 2:52:38 AM)

To add to your comments, I thought simplistically that an assault would produce a certain result and that would be the end of it.  The designers were using a little more imagination and inspiration. 

I think what the designer may have been trying to capture was the initial assault would produce a specific result.  The defense might be sufficient to beat off the assault and make a counter-assault moot (although I think the computer always uses a counter-assault, but if the results of the assault are bad enough, it should help the counter-assault).  On the other hand, if the assault meets with some success, you effectively have both friendly and enemy units occupying the same hex, so, in the context of the game, something has to give, because friendly and enemy units can't occupy the same hex.  The defenders have the options of retreating, being captured, getting killed, or pushing the assault back with a counter-assault and maintaining the hex.  If the defenders have poor counter-assault abilities, their ability to push back will be minimal, and their options drop to retreat, get captured, or get killed, and their ability to retreat would appear to be hampered by their inability to counter-assault. 

I did a quick check on Tank Destroyers, and a few have decent defensive strengths (6 or 8), but all seem to have terrible assault values (2).  So even if not disrupted, assaulting them might produce good results.  I haven't tried it, but XLVIII Korp's discussion will alert me to the possibility in the future.

I appreciate the tips. 



panda124c -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (3/31/2008 7:52:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

I did a quick check on Tank Destroyers, and a few have decent defensive strengths (6 or 8), but all seem to have terrible assault values (2).  So even if not disrupted, assaulting them might produce good results.  I haven't tried it, but XLVIII Korp's discussion will alert me to the possibility in the future.

I appreciate the tips. 

Keep infantry with your TD's to protect them from assaults. [:D]



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (4/17/2008 3:52:57 AM)

Using XLVIII Pz Korp's advice, I managed a 401 in "Blitzkrieg in Malaya," which was a minor victory and was 24 points shy of a major victory.  I'm fairly sure that's my best score in this scenario, as I'd played it at least once if not twice before.  There's still room for improvement.



Hermann -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (4/17/2008 6:13:25 AM)

It's doable - PM me and I'll give you a few pointers.

[image]local://upfiles/22933/F2EFCFCD19EE43B093B65244149F4FE1.jpg[/image]



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (5/19/2008 7:32:08 AM)

XLVIII Panzer's Korp's advice continues to work wonders. In "Blitzkrieg in Malaya," I scored a 527 major victory. I had the 150 VP hexes. I had 227 exit points. And I had a 303 to 153 SP advantage. Thanks again XLVIII Panzer Korp. I avoided chasing after British troops and focused on exiting as many troops as possible.



1925frank -> RE: gunfight at Flavion (5/25/2008 8:35:17 AM)

"Red Devils at Arnhem" is another one where I haven't managed a major victory, although I managed a minor victory, but just barely - 51 points. I got 125 in VP hexes (the two to the immediate right and left of the bridge), and only 100 points are needed for a major, but my losses were great.

I noticed that while my units were on the bridge, their firepower was reduced dramatically. Firepower, while on the full-hex bridge, is halved, rounded down. Additionally, the SP maximum is 12 instead of 24, except for when units retreat onto the bridge, then it's apparently 24 again. For purposes of advancement during your half of the turn, however, the 12 SP limitation is quite restrictive.

I looked in the manual but didn't see anything about these modifications.

I got a 69 and minor victory in a second play without capturing any VP hexes. I just duked it out across the river. At the very end, I tried to dash some units across, but with a 12 SP limitation on the bridge, my sprint across ran into a bottleneck the moment two platoons became disrupted or retreated back onto the bridge. I think I lost at least 12 points trying to cross the bridge.

A major victory on the third play -- 200 points. Turns 1-7 consisted of a firefight across the river primarily with the 75 VP hex. This gave me a sizeable VP advantage and left the 75 VP hex virtually undefended. To get this advantage, I had to knock out the British antitank gun as quickly as possible so I could move my motorized artillery as close as possible and use direct fire. Plotted 2 indirect smoke rounds on turns 7, 8, and 9 each. Sent infantry and armored vehicles across on turns 8 and 9 and took the 75 VP hex on turn 9 and held it on turn 10.



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