RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (Full Version)

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Wolfie1 -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/17/2007 5:59:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
YES...the 1 kill in this mission killed one of my aces with 18 kills! And damaged a bunch of my planes to boot! ONE stinkin' bomber! This game is so borked it is not even playable! [:@]

Why do we even bother??? ...


Well, at least your imperial ace got it from another aircraft. Look what historically happened to the Red Baron, who probably bought it from an Aussie gunner on the ground w/one lucky shot to the ace's chest; but the Brits wouldn't hear of it, and gave the kill to one of their own airman.




Do you have a source for that Joe D.?



I thought it was common knowledge, but I'll have a dig through my library and quote you a couple of sources.



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/17/2007 7:56:29 PM)

There are many sources as to who really killed the Baron, but click this link from PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

If memory still serves me, some time ago an investigative forensic team went to the original site and used lasers to verify that the fatal shot could have come from the ground; the team's aerial computer recreations had ruled-out that RAF Cpt. Brown -- who supposedly was suffering from dysentery at the time -- shot down the Baron.

I don't think a forensic anaylsis of the round that killled von Richtoven -- assuming it was recovered and saved -- would have helped as both biplanes' guns and ground machine guns were made by Vickers.



Apollo11 -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/17/2007 9:01:30 PM)

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

There are many sources as to who really killed the Baron, but click this link from PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

If memory still serves me, some time ago an investigative forensic team went to the original site and used lasers to verify that the fatal shot could have come from the ground; the team's aerial computer recreations had ruled-out that RAF Cpt. Brown -- who supposedly was suffering from dysentery at the time -- shot down the Baron.

I don't think a forensic anaylsis of the round that killled von Richtoven -- assuming it was recovered and saved -- would have helped as both biplanes and ground machine guns were both made by Vickers.


Didn't you read Corto Maltese by Hugo Pratt?

The killer was drunken Australian sharpshooter... [;)]


Leo "Apollo11"



Dixie -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/17/2007 10:27:45 PM)

The Red Baron was scuttled [:D] [:'(]

Both of these situations show that war has no respect for reputations. Being shot down by the crew of an obsolete bomber, or a ground solider is not how most fighter pilots would see themselves going out...



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/18/2007 12:35:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie
...
Both of these situations show that war has no respect for reputations. Being shot down by the crew of an obsolete bomber, or a ground solider is not how most fighter pilots would see themselves going out...


Agreed: Pilots thought themselves the "knights of the air," and knights didn't care to be done in by a peasant w/a pike or a low-born w/a longbow.



JeffroK -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/18/2007 10:01:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

There are many sources as to who really killed the Baron, but click this link from PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/redbaron/theories.html

If memory still serves me, some time ago an investigative forensic team went to the original site and used lasers to verify that the fatal shot could have come from the ground; the team's aerial computer recreations had ruled-out that RAF Cpt. Brown -- who supposedly was suffering from dysentery at the time -- shot down the Baron.

I don't think a forensic anaylsis of the round that killled von Richtoven -- assuming it was recovered and saved -- would have helped as both biplanes' guns and ground machine guns were made by Vickers.


Having the round would solve the question to a great extent.

The scoring on the bullet would differ if fired from an SMLE, Vickers or Lewis gun, and I think differ if from aircraft mounted rather than Ground mounted.

90% probability the round was fired by Sgt Popkin of the Australian Army



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/18/2007 4:07:48 PM)

... 90% probability the round was fired by Sgt Popkin of the Australian Army

I'd say the odds that MvR died from a deflection burst by Sgt. Popkin on the ground are much better than those of losing your top ace in a flight of 4 Oscars against a lone Blenheim at 1,000 ft!

WitP odds are hard to figure; maybe I'll stay w/UV.



Mike Scholl -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/18/2007 5:33:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
I'd say the odds that MvR died from a deflection burst by Sgt. Popkin on the ground are much better than those of losing your top ace in a flight of 4 Oscars against a lone Blenheim at 1,000 ft!

WitP odds are hard to figure; maybe I'll stay w/UV.



With the Oscar's puny armament, the turret gunner of the Blenheim had a good chance in a duel. The Oscar had to close to be effective against the more ruggedly built bomber, and the gunner really only needed a lucky hit or two to kill the pilot or flame the Oscar. The big problem of the "ultra-light, ultra- manueverable fighter" was against an A/C that didn't manuever at all. Does no good to be able to flip and roll all over the sky when the task is to close in, remain steady, and shoot down an A/C that can manuever it's guns to shoot at you. If the Blenheim was low enough it couldn't be approached from an undefended direction, the Oscars were going to have to "trade punishment" to get it..., and Oscar's can't take much punishment.



wneumann -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 1:24:24 AM)

As long as we're on the corn thing. You can try this at home.....

I have four LCM's doomed to spend all eternity conducting amphibious warfare exercises on an Iowa corn field. Perhaps they will get lucky and meet up with the blind chick.

To perform this little miracle (Allied players only) - just go to the "United States", pull up the Base Information Display, and click the "Create Barges" button. Shazaam!






whippleofd -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 1:59:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

The Red Baron was scuttled [:D] [:'(]



Oh Lordy. [:-][:D]

Whipple



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:00:16 AM)

Mike,

For the record, many Japanese aircraft were under-armed and underpowered. But according to my research, the KI-43-1B had 1x7.7.mm machine gun and 1x12.7mm machine cannon, which isn't exactly a pea shooter.

Further, a Bristol Blenheim Mk. I isn't exactly a B-17; originally hailed as the fastest light bomber in the world, its speed "was a function of a light and relatively flimsy structure." Historically, Blenheims experienced heavy losses in (real) combat.

And after reviewing the original post, there were actually five Oscars vs. one lone Blenheim at 1,000; the Oscars would have taken turns diving at the hapless bomber, but apparently WitP doesn't have an algorthym for this.

Given the choice, which flight would you rather have been with: the Oscars or the Blenheim? Even if the Red Baron was at the controls, the odds were heavilly against the Blenheim, and I can understand why Knavey was so angry w/the result.



Terminus -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:17:26 AM)

Erm... Maybe you should go back and actually read the whole thread... This combat didn't actually happen in a game of WitP...[8|]



LittleJoe -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:40:45 AM)

Out of all the things seriously broken in this game. I can't beleive the original poster lost it over that.



JeffroK -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:42:03 AM)

And the 12.7mm wasnt a cannon, its a machine gun.

I believe the Blen was below 1000ft, even a non fatal hit could cause the pilot to auger in.



JeffroK -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:44:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe

Out of all the things seriously broken in this game. I can't beleive the original poster lost it over that.


He's chucked it in so many times and then plays again so hemust have purchased the game again, must be 50% of Matrix's sales of WITP.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 2:51:11 AM)

I got about half way through before I remembered the format.

Speaking of adulterating food...sort of...when I was a kid I worked at a theater and there was a gregarious security guard who claimed he was former airborne and had one leg shorter than the other from a jump fracture. Maybe, maybe not, but in any event, he would come around and we would BS a bit and usually give him some free popcorn with lots of hot grease. The guy would just inhale the stuff. That gave us an idea when we recieved a projector part packed in little styrofoam popcorn [sm=00000622.gif] The first night we put in half a dozen pieces with the real popcorn and poured on the grease. He just inhaled it. The next night we upped the ratio and by day five we were up to about 40% styrofoam. The 6th night he didn't make his rounds and we began to get really worried. An hour late his coworker showed up an explained the ex-airborne guy just had a couple of scheduled days off. Wheeew! That was the end of our little styrofoam experiment. We never had the nerve to tell him, especially since he was about 6ft 4.



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 3:01:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Erm... Maybe you should go back and actually read the whole thread... This combat didn't actually happen in a game of WitP...[8|]


Huh? Did I miss something?

Good job on the knowlege out there, and by the way...stuff like this make our WitP game seem not so unrealistic after all!

My bad: 12.7-mm (0.5-in) machine gun. Still no pea shooter, and more than a match for an out-numbered, wave-hopping light bomber.



Williamb -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 9:13:33 PM)

quote:

Huh? Did I miss something?

Good job on the knowlege out there, and by the way...stuff like this make our WitP game seem not so unrealistic after all!

My bad: 12.7-mm (0.5-in) machine gun. Still no pea shooter, and more than a match for an out-numbered, wave-hopping light bomber.


I think he is refering to the German story I related

In that you had probably 4 ME109s attacking 9 B 25s and one of the planes had a German Ace with 37 kills.

And the Ace got shot down

Not the same odds as 1 Blenheim vs 5 Oscars but the ME109 is a bit more rugged and better armed than an Oscar.

As stated before a bit of bad luck and the conditions created this kill.



Feinder -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 9:13:57 PM)

Joe,

Knavey's threads are historical engagements (often those that are lop-sided or very unusual), that he types in as a WitP combat report.  They tend to be "inflammatory" and never fail to reel-in somebody who doesn't realize it's a historical battle.

-F-



bradfordkay -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 9:36:42 PM)

And the comment: "Good job on the knowlege out there, and by the way...stuff like this make our WitP game seem not so unrealistic after all! " was meant to say that the real WW2 had wierd results similar to WITP.



Knavey -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 10:06:42 PM)

Yes,

This was an actual engagement in WW2 not in WitP.  TIMJOT has a basic description of what happened in the 2nd post. 

Thanks for playing!

[:D]



Williamb -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 11:02:55 PM)

Man the internet is good if you look hard enough

http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/japan_kato.htm

Lieutenant Colonel Tateo Kato

[image]http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/images/kato_2.jpg[/image]

Tateo Kato was born on 28 September 1903 in Hokkaido. His father Sergeant Tetsuzo Kato was killed in the Russo-Japanese War.


In July 1937 the Sino-Japanese War began, and Captain Kato led the 1st chutai (including First Lieutenant Mitsugu Sawada, First Lieutenant Kosuke Kawahara and Sergeant Major Hiroshi Sekiguchi) of the 2nd Hiko Daitai (flight battalion), which was transferred to the northern China. The unit was equipped with Kawasaki Ki-10 Type 95 'Perry' biplane fighters The Ki-10 quickly demonstrated their superiority over the Chines Polikarpov I-152s, and the aggressive Japanese pilots dominated the skies.


[image]http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/images/kato_1.jpg[/image]
Takeo in 1938

From Asansol nine Blenheims of 60 Squadron flew to Dum Dum on 22 May in preparation for an attack on Akyab airfield. Initially it was planned that six bombers would fly up-river to attack targets there, while three others would attack the airfield. In the event, only the latter three finally prepared for take-off, but one suffered engine trouble and did not get away, while a second returned early with other technical problems. Only Blenheim Mk.IV Z9808 of 60 Squadron flown by Warrant Officer Martin Huggard managed to reach the target. The Blenheim dropped its bomb from low-level and sped off out over the Bay of Bengal at wave-top height.

Despite their element of surprise the Blenheim crew had spotted a number of 64th Sentai Ki-43s scrambling after them as they flew over Akyab. First off in pursuit of the enemy bomber was 10-victory ace Sergeant Yoshito Yasuda, who soon caught up with the Blenheim and dived in to attack. Fortunately for the three-man Blenheim crew, their turret gunner Flight Sergeant 'Jock' McLuckie proved to be a crack shot, despite having never before fired his guns in anger (the third member of the crew was the navigator Sergeant Jack Howitt). McLuckie hit Yasuda's Ki-43 in its first pass, and the Japanese pilot was forced to return to Akyab.

Captain Masuzo Otani then took up the attack, but he too fell victim to a well-aimed burst from the gunner and had to retire back to Burma.

Finally, after almost 30 minutes of constant attack, three Ki-43-I-Heis appeared on the scene, with Lieutenant Colonel Kato in the lead fighter. However when Kato pulled up after making his first diving pass on the Blenheim, McLuckie raked the fighter's exposed belly with a long burst and the Ki-43 started to burn. Realising that he would never make it back to Akyab, Kato half-looped his stricken fighter and purposely dove into the sea to perish with it. He had advised his pilots on numerous occasions in the past to perform just such a manoeuvre if hit badly over the water. The remaining two Japanese pilots immediately returned to Akyab to report the terrible news (they also reported that Kato has shot down the bomber, which obviously wasn't true).

The Blenheim returned to India unscathed by the Japanese attacks, and once British Intelligence had ascertained just who was flying the Ki-43 downed by McLuckie, 60 Squadron received the following signal from Air Officer Commanding Burma, Air Vice-Marshal D. F. Stevenson, on 2 August 1942:

Please convey my congratulations toward Warrant Officer Huggards, Sergeant Howitt and Sergeant McLuckie on the successful action they fought against four enemy fighters which took place over Akyab on 22 May, and which resulted in Lt Colonel T. A. Keo Kato [sic], leader of the Japanese fighter force being shot down.'

In recognition of his distinguished service, Kato was elevated two ranks posthumously to Major General.

below that is his kill record


Even today his memory is kept alive by the popular song 'Kato Hayabusa Sentoki Tai' (Fighter Air Group Kato).

Said video of song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKamTm2QWjs



Williamb -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 11:08:05 PM)

Apparently that video links to Japanese Animi war stories. (but in Japanese)

Seems like McLuckie was bloody Davy Crockett in that turret that day

Even more war video about that song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS12isLjS5w&mode=related&search=



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/19/2007 11:46:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Yes,
This was an actual engagement in WW2 not in WitP.  TIMJOT has a basic description of what happened in the 2nd post. 
Thanks for playing!
[:D]


I'll be damned. But since you're posting info on this forum under false pretenses, apparently you're as tired of playing WitP as I am of UV.




Terminus -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 12:00:55 AM)

No, Knavey just has a sense of humour...[8|]



Mike Scholl -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 2:36:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Mike,

For the record, many Japanese aircraft were under-armed and underpowered. But according to my research, the KI-43-1B had 1x7.7.mm machine gun and 1x12.7mm machine cannon, which isn't exactly a pea shooter.

Maybe in Japanese service a 12.7mm was considered a cannon, but in the real world it's called a .50 cal. Machinegun.

Further, a Bristol Blenheim Mk. I isn't exactly a B-17; originally hailed as the fastest light bomber in the world, its speed "was a function of a light and relatively flimsy structure." Historically, Blenheims experienced heavy losses in (real) combat.

But that was against (real) fighters with (real) armament...





Knavey -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 5:21:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knavey
Yes,
This was an actual engagement in WW2 not in WitP.  TIMJOT has a basic description of what happened in the 2nd post. 
Thanks for playing!
[:D]


I'll be damned. But since you're posting info on this forum under false pretenses, apparently you're as tired of playing WitP as I am of UV.




Whoa...false pretenses? Me? [:D] Post something that happened in real life...er, I mean WitP...no wait, this one was in real life! NEVER!!! I cannot believe the accusations I am hearing! [;)]

I am so confused.



ilovestrategy -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 7:03:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipple

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk



oh, he got you guys, once again![:D]


Ayup. He's good at it. Keeps 'em far enough apart that the old "rant" isn't remembered. This Nuc is good. Brings a tear to my eye everytime with the way it carrys it off. [:D]

Whipple


Oh good gravy. You guys never fail to have me laughing hard in front of the comp and having my wife look at me like I lost my mind [:D]



Joe D. -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 3:51:40 PM)

For those of us who are still caught on Knavey's flypaper, the engagement in question was real, it just didn't happen in his (bogus) WitP post.

Apparently there is so much "down time" between turns in WitP that players have gotten tired of playing w/themselves, so they troll for the uninitiated.

But here's a real post -- from the UV forum -- of the real flight of a B-17 recon over Buka that had to fight-off an entire airfield of Jap fighters to make it back to base: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1418666







bradfordkay -> RE: I am FINISHED...ENOUGH is ENOUGH!! (8/20/2007 7:24:35 PM)

Joe, Knavey started these threads ages ago when the rest of us were regularly making whiny posts about how the "game is broken" due to unrealistic in-game results. It made us all take a second look at our complaints.

You may call it trolling for the unitiated, but the rest of us consider it good humour. It's not like he's trying to start a flame war (okay, maybe back when he first did it, but that was in defense of this game that we all knw and love so much).

If you were to create a poll, you'll probably find that most of the forum readers love his little scam...



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