P-40s again (Full Version)

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spence -> P-40s again (8/25/2007 4:10:30 AM)

I've been reading through the USAAF chronology of WW2 and finding very little mention of P-40s figuring in USAAF air operations in the European or Mediteranean Theaters.

http://www.usaaf.net/chron/

It seems the first P-40 unit to arrive in the Med did so on 7/29 beginning combat operations in early Sept. As far as those fighter units sent to the 8th or 12th Air Forces in England it seems all were equipped with either P-38s or Spitfire V's.

This would seem to lend some credence to the proposition that the production and replacement of P-40s in WitP is too low. The idea that some fixed proportion of all US production could be applied to all weapons systems across the board has always been suspect IMHO.

Since for most of 1942 the US was not engaged in combat operations in Europe at all it makes sense that the larger proportion of the better fighters (for the time) were sent to where combat was actually taking place or likely to take place. And by the time that the US became engaged in large scale operations in Europe the newer fighter models were becoming available (P-38s and P-47s).



SouthernAP -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 4:56:38 AM)

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p40.html

A gentleman by the name of Joe Baugher is an airplane nut and he has a webpage up that breaks down certain aircraft by types, who bought them, what some of the performance stats were, what the serial numbers were, and if he knows them what the loses were and what units. The link I provided is his whole section on the P-40 from the XP-40 to the P-40R. Read up on these stats. Most of the Early P-40's from the P-40B to the P-40E were being split between the USAAF and the UK Commenwealth nations. Mr. Baugher has traced serial numbers of P-40's that were sold to the French Air Force, then given to the RAF, who then gave them to the RNZAF in the Desert, who in turn gave them to the USAAF in Tunis and some of them weren't even broken out of the boxes and preservate paper.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher/ a link to his home page.



m10bob -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 5:04:40 AM)

The Tuskegee airmen had P 40's before they got the P 51.



wdolson -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 1:13:29 PM)

The Us did not have a significant presence in North Africa until after November 1942's Operation Torch.  Most of the P-40s that served in North Africa were Merlin powered Fs.  The game has way too few P-40Es and a serious fighter shortage in general through the early part of 1942.  In the real war, the units in the US were kept below strength and flew obsolete aircraft so the better fighters can be sent to the front.  The game mechanics makes it impossible to "short" units in one area to free up planes for another.  Because you need enough planes in the pool to bring the unit up to full strength before you can downgrade to another plane type, you end up stuck with P-40E units in the West Coast Command that you can't down grade.

I used the feature in 1.801 to disband units at San Francisco to free up planes in the pool.  It was only in that one version of the game though.  Because of the limited game mechanics, Allied early fighters should have production cranked up in many areas.  Maybe crank up P-26s or something else pretty much obsolete to allow the Allied player to downgrade units in the West Coast to free up fighters for the front.

Bill



Reg -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 2:46:41 PM)


Have a look at this thread where some interesting info on this topic came up....

RE: P-40s replacements in Dec'41 to Jan'42

In 10 words or less, it appears that large quantites of P-40E were supplied to the Pacific but were lost in the fall of NEI. WITP seems to have over looked these aircraft as they had no actual influence in the war (destroyed before they could be effectively deployed)!!



niceguy2005 -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 4:03:30 PM)

I can tell you one thing about playing stock, which is there is a serious shortage of fighters for the USAAF. I have at least 3 rear area fighter groups still flying P-36s in March 43. I'm still reading through the sources above, but it seems to me most of these units would be flying P-40s by now.



TheElf -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 4:24:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I can tell you one thing about playing stock, which is there is a serious shortage of fighters for the USAAF. I have at least 3 rear area fighter groups still flying P-36s in March 43. I'm still reading through the sources above, but it seems to me most of these units would be flying P-40s by now.


Document your sources in detail if you want to see change.



m10bob -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 6:09:48 PM)

P 40's bound for Operation Torch.
These are with Allison engines made in Indianapolis.
Note the engines running on some. These planes were flown off the carrier from about 100 miles out.

[image]local://upfiles/7909/44775F6B5D994A12AA47522465B2FD1F.jpg[/image]



Terminus -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 6:12:01 PM)

I see a quad Bofors mount in that pic. Didn't know they were in service by that time.



Canoerebel -> What about Corsairs in Europe? (8/25/2007 6:28:17 PM)

This thread reminded me of a questions that came to mind last week while reading a thread about the Corsair's superiority in the Pacific Theater.  Was it used in Europe?  If not, why not?  If so, how did it fare against German aircraft?



Terminus -> RE: What about Corsairs in Europe? (8/25/2007 6:30:10 PM)

I *think* that some FAA Corsairs flew during carrier operations in Norway, including Operation Tungsten, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: They were, along with Wildcats and Hellcats. Doesn't look like they fought the Luftwaffe, though.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/tirpitz/history/tiropertungsten.html



m10bob -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 9:59:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I see a quad Bofors mount in that pic. Didn't know they were in service by that time.


FWIW the pic was taken in October or November '43..



pompack -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 10:06:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I see a quad Bofors mount in that pic. Didn't know they were in service by that time.


FWIW the pic was taken in October or November '43..



43 not 42?



wdolson -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 11:30:40 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I see a quad Bofors mount in that pic. Didn't know they were in service by that time.


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
FWIW the pic was taken in October or November '43..


It has to be a 42 picture. The national insignia is still the round star and the US flag was applied for Torch only. All US aircraft had the star and bar by October 43: http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq2-1.htm

Bill



Terminus -> RE: P-40s again (8/25/2007 11:36:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I see a quad Bofors mount in that pic. Didn't know they were in service by that time.


FWIW the pic was taken in October or November '43..


Then it can hardly be Torch.



Big B -> RE: P-40s again (8/26/2007 12:53:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

P 40's bound for Operation Torch.
These are with Allison engines made in Indianapolis.
Note the engines running on some. These planes were flown off the carrier from about 100 miles out.

[image]local://upfiles/7909/44775F6B5D994A12AA47522465B2FD1F.jpg[/image]

Bob, I believe those are P-40Fs.
If you look at the top of the nose - there is no air scoop as is the case with the P-40E below. A hallmark of Merlin engine P-40s is the lack of air scoop and ridge on the top of the nose.
If they are inbound for North Africa - that would also heavily suggest they are P-40F's.

[image]local://upfiles/16855/423D582F62F64247BE39E124923B97CC.jpg[/image]



m10bob -> RE: P-40s again (8/26/2007 5:31:14 AM)

Correctomundo you are sirs!!..
1.1942
2.Rolls Royce-Packard Merlin (model "F" series).

[image]local://upfiles/7909/80E3D99663564C0F876C71F76767A333.jpg[/image]



Big B -> RE: P-40s again (8/26/2007 5:38:24 AM)

Karnak the Magnificent has spoken [:D]
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Correctomundo you are sirs!!..
1.1942
2.Rolls Royce-Packard Merlin (model "F" series).

[image]local://upfiles/7909/80E3D99663564C0F876C71F76767A333.jpg[/image]




Reg -> RE: P-40s again (8/26/2007 6:23:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

P 40's bound for Operation Torch.
These are with Allison engines made in Indianapolis.
Note the engines running on some. These planes were flown off the carrier from about 100 miles out.

[image]local://upfiles/7909/44775F6B5D994A12AA47522465B2FD1F.jpg[/image]



I hope they remove the preservative coatings off the canopies before delivery or they will be flying in the dark (literally). [:D] [:D]

(The engine running will be part of the deck cargo preservation process as well!!)



Big B -> RE: P-40s again (8/26/2007 7:50:48 AM)

They did just fine Reg - not to worry [;)]

B [8D]

Edit: And by the way - that is CV 4, USS Ranger in late 1942 (you can tell by seeing the two after funnels in the lowered position), and yes- they had quad 40s' installed by then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

P 40's bound for Operation Torch.
These are with Allison engines made in Indianapolis.
Note the engines running on some. These planes were flown off the carrier from about 100 miles out.

[image]local://upfiles/7909/44775F6B5D994A12AA47522465B2FD1F.jpg[/image]



I hope they remove the preservative coatings off the canopies before delivery or they will be flying in the dark (literally). [:D] [:D]

(The engine running will be part of the deck cargo preservation process as well!!)




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