What's the Sir Robin strategy? (Full Version)

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AirGriff -> What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 10:07:36 PM)

I keep hearing people talk about it, but I've never seen the thread.



AHFlattop -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 10:16:16 PM)

I'm new to the forum, but I took it to mean the Allies evacuating fragments and whole units from DEI, PI, Singapore using whatever means possible, boat, plane, sub. The idea is to deny the Japs points. The next question would be the best position to make a stand, Some say Java, Timor, or Oz.

Hope this helps.



niceguy2005 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 10:18:12 PM)

Does this help?

[image]local://upfiles/17264/FF0F81FDCF0F4FD6BBCD002921D182A8.jpg[/image]



AHFlattop -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 10:20:54 PM)

Oops, I forgot to credit Monty Python's "Run Away!"



AirGriff -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 10:27:35 PM)

Many thanks, guys. I guess I use a mix of that. In some cases I pull 'em back, but I tend to like them to stand and deliver.



rubisco -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/5/2007 11:44:12 PM)

MINSTREL: [singing] Brave Sir Robin ran away,
ROBIN: No!
MINSTREL: [singing] Bravely ran away, away.
ROBIN: I didn't!
MINSTREL: [singing] When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
ROBIN: No!
MINSTREL: [singing] Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
ROBIN: I didn't!
MINSTREL: [singing] And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
ROBIN: I never did!
MINSTREL: [singing] He beat a very brave retreat,
ROBIN: All lies!
MINSTREL: [singing] Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin.
ROBIN: I never!

[:D]



niceguy2005 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 2:04:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rubisco

MINSTREL: [singing] Brave Sir Robin ran away,
ROBIN: No!
MINSTREL: [singing] Bravely ran away, away.
ROBIN: I didn't!
MINSTREL: [singing] When danger reared its ugly head, he bravely turned his tail and fled.
ROBIN: No!
MINSTREL: [singing] Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about
ROBIN: I didn't!
MINSTREL: [singing] And gallantly, he chickened out. Bravely taking to his feet,
ROBIN: I never did!
MINSTREL: [singing] He beat a very brave retreat,
ROBIN: All lies!
MINSTREL: [singing] Bravest of the brave, Sir Robin.
ROBIN: I never!

[:D]


Pure genius. [:D]



Feinder -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 2:48:52 AM)

It's not so much "to deny Japan points".  There's nothign wrong with denying Japan points.  [;)]

Sir Robin is simply running away and hiding everything until end of 43 when Allied CV and Land-base air-power are (relatively) unstoppable, then come back and smash everything.

My observation of the Sir Robin AARs is that he actually screws himself on points.  While yes, Sir Robin does tend to lead to a lower scoring on average, the Allies are not -inflicting- anything on Japan.  So when 1943 rolls around, if you've only got 3000 points as Allies, you only need 12000 points as Japan to win.

-F-



Nikademus -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 4:00:37 AM)

its also not very much fun either. I was on the receiving end of a Sir Robin type PBEM. boooooring and ultimately caused a major loss of interest.



Ian R -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 5:48:31 AM)

When the HMS Victorious was sent to the Solomons on loan (because the USN was down to one operational CV) it was given the temporary name USS Robin.

If the allied player is willing to pay the political points saved by doing nothing in 1942 while everything trains the RN CVs (re-armed with 'Martlets' and Avengers) can be used to form an early version of TF 58.

A variation on the Sir Robin strategy perhaps. 



JeffroK -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 9:46:17 AM)

Sir Robin was a realist, and maybe a General in Mussolini's Army.

I bet those who favour the japanese side wants the Allies to sit still and get bashed, whereas the Allied player thinks its more fun to be alive when the F4U/Essex generation arrive.

IMHO,V points isnt the best way to show victory in this game, maybe its an indicator. And its hard to choose whose winning until the tide turns and the Allies start handing out the lickings.



Yamato hugger -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 10:08:16 AM)

In stock scenarios, "Sir Robin" is almost mandatory if India is to survive. If the Malay and PI armies die and the Japs commit everything to India, there is little hope for the Brits. In CHS it doesnt seem that critical.

I personally do mass evacuations from Malaya, I pull a few key units off Java, and I pull troops (whole units, not just fragments) out of the PI as I can. Everything else usually dies in place.

Further, against an "Admiral Death Star" type Jap player, its foolish to try to delay because all he is doing is playing Pac-Man anyways. The only way to stop him is to counter-death star him and that means pulling all your troops into 1 spot.



JeffroK -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 10:12:37 AM)

The only difference to the Allies concentrating in 1 place, is to make 3-4 major points, ie Ceylon, Australia, PH ..... and wait for the KB to go somewhere else, then to hit were they aint. A push from Nthn OZ can threaten those vital oilfields....



AirGriff -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 4:04:07 PM)

I'm playing an interesting game where my IJ opponent is running a somewhat more conservative game (so far, it's early Feb '42) against everybody but the Chinese. I gave him carte blanche on Kwantung redeploys and he's taking that to the hilt. He almost completely stripped the Russian border as far as I can tell, and things are about to get real nasty for the Chinese. I don't have a huge issue with it, since this allows me to set up a good springboard everywhere else (the Aussies are swarming over NG). Anyway, I guess I played Sir Robin to a point, but most of my transferred units went right back into a hot front-Burma/SWPAC/better locales in the DEI.



RUPD3658 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/6/2007 5:56:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK

Sir Robin was a realist, and maybe a General in Mussolini's Army.

I bet those who favour the japanese side wants the Allies to sit still and get bashed, whereas the Allied player thinks its more fun to be alive when the F4U/Essex generation arrive.

IMHO,V points isnt the best way to show victory in this game, maybe its an indicator. And its hard to choose whose winning until the tide turns and the Allies start handing out the lickings.


Come late 1943 a smart Japanese player will start to do a modified Sir Robin against the Allied onslaught. There is no reason to defend a base within B-24 range if it is going to get plastered. [sm=00000959.gif]



niceguy2005 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 2:30:51 AM)

I've never thought of a sir robin as anything other than running away in general. I can't imagine waiting until 44 to start an offensive. In my pbem I did end up waiting until 43, but that's only because my opponent stopped my 2 attempts in late 42 before they even got off the ground.

Running away, in witp, as the allies in the early part of the war, is a true skill (one the real sir Robin would likely appreciate [;)]). Those who run too far too fast usually end up defeating themselves. The fighting withdrawl on the other hand takes great skill. It means looking like your going to make a stand and then letting your force evaporate right before the enemies eyes, only to show up in another spot. This type of Sir Robin is very effective.



Barb -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 10:06:20 AM)

He who figts and runs away, lives to fight another day.
I am also doing something similar in my PBEM as allies in early months.



JeffroK -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 12:43:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

He who figts and runs away, lives to fight another day.
I am also doing something similar in my PBEM as allies in early months.


From deep in the memory:

He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day.
He who stands, and fights, and dies
Never gets another try.

(Now I could have made that up, I cant remember!!)[>:]



Wolfie1 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 6:17:40 PM)

In my experience, the best strategy as Allies is to make the Jap player think you are following the Sir Robin strategy and lay an ambush for him - it's difficult, but I've taken great pleasure from some of the horrified e-mails from Jap opponents when it's been successfully pulled off.



Panther Bait -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 6:38:21 PM)

When I noticed that my Betty/Nells were concentrated in the South China Sea area and that the KB was down near Borneo supporting the invasion of Balikpapan and Tarakan, I sent Lexington, Enterprise and Saratoga for a Jan 1942 visit to Truk (via a northern hop around Kwajalein since he skipped the Wake Island invasion in December).  I was sweating bullets the whole way in (especially when Kates and Vals starting hitting Rabaul from the Mini-KB, I think), but he had no idea they were there until the bombs started falling, and I was able to bang up/sink a bunch of CLs and DDs for no losses other than a few planes.  He was stunned for 3 days, and I think it has made him at least reconsider a bit where the KB is patrolling. 

Now that Yorktown is in the Pacific as well, I need to think up more ways to use my CVs to administer annoying hits here and there, rather than rust in port at PH until 1943.



AHFlattop -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 11:05:22 PM)

I think its great that we're having this discussion, even if its old to some.  With IJ Auto victory on Jan 1 1943 requiring (I think) only 4X the Allies points, at some point in the 1/2 half of '42, the Allies should make some kind of stand or ambush, somewhere.

If IJ is careful with airplane and ship losses and the Allies doing a full Sir Robin Stategy, I would think it won't be too difficult to achieve an IJ Auto-victory.  It seems that the IJ KB death star rampades over everything while the Allies patiently wait until their own death star is formed.  Are IJ auto-victories common?



ny59giants -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/7/2007 11:05:26 PM)

I'm at the end of 4/42 and must say that the "Sir Robin" strategy in CHS is a must for certain units. I take out the  large BF's, engineers, large aviation regiments, and Naval HQ's from the SRA/PI. I feel there is a shortage of aviation support in scenario 158c (Nik Mod). I built major siege places at Singapore, Soerabaja, and Manila. The last 2 did not fall until the middle of 4/42. [:D]   I feel that the Allies must delay, when it is cost effective. Some places I did not, because I would just be throwinh LCU's away.
The most important thing is the way your Japanese opoonent plays and finding a way to counter it. I image my next opponent will try something diferent. [;)]



wneumann -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/11/2007 6:51:13 AM)

I'd have to say I've been playing "Sir Robin" in my PBEM, both by choice and otherwise...

"Sir Robin" was a deliberate plan for me in the Philippines, Malaya, DEI, and Burma. These are areas where "Sir Robin" is a very feasible if not the most feasible course of action. However, "Sir Robin" is not a suitable course everywhere...

In the case of the South Pacific area, I ended up resorting (involuntarily) to "Sir Robin" once it became too late for me to sufficiently reinforce the major bases in this region. Once Pillager captured Canton Is (and began the process of cutting off the U.S. from Down Under), it became extremely difficult and eventually impossible to reinforce South Pacific bases that remained in Allied control.

From Canton, Pillager moved south and west to Pago Pago, then Suva, then Fiji, then Noumea. Once the dominoes started falling, "Sir Robin" became the only Allied option in the South Pacific.

AHFlattop makes a good point... which almost perfectly describes the situation in my PBEM. As an Allied strategy "Sir Robin" can be played (deliberately or otherwise) beyond the tipping point.

Once the tipping point is crossed, the Japanese can stop their advance along an outer perimeter that will be very difficult for an Allied player to penetrate. Pillager has effectively done that in our PBEM. Even with my forces practically intact, an Allied counterattack is going to be very, very difficult.

Not to mention a very good chance at a Jap Auto Victory.



JeffroK -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/11/2007 7:34:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

When I noticed that my Betty/Nells were concentrated in the South China Sea area and that the KB was down near Borneo supporting the invasion of Balikpapan and Tarakan, I sent Lexington, Enterprise and Saratoga for a Jan 1942 visit to Truk (via a northern hop around Kwajalein since he skipped the Wake Island invasion in December).  I was sweating bullets the whole way in (especially when Kates and Vals starting hitting Rabaul from the Mini-KB, I think), but he had no idea they were there until the bombs started falling, and I was able to bang up/sink a bunch of CLs and DDs for no losses other than a few planes.  He was stunned for 3 days, and I think it has made him at least reconsider a bit where the KB is patrolling. 

Now that Yorktown is in the Pacific as well, I need to think up more ways to use my CVs to administer annoying hits here and there, rather than rust in port at PH until 1943.


In addition to Truk, Wake, Kwajalein & even Marcus can be approached carefully and given a few hits. It might force the japanese to send mini-KB after you, or maybe splitting up KN which makes it more vulnerable. Plus killing every Betty/Nell you can steadily erodes his strike forces. Maybe a BB/CA raid on Paramushiro may attract his attention. (Even if you only force him to relocate his Bettys means a few more OP losses)



Commander Stormwolf -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 6:00:22 AM)

Among the more effective doctrines is Sir Robin in combination with Sir Lancellot -->

--------------

Sir Lancellot ~

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPXG4pdPj4w&feature=related

-------------

Fighting the battles on my terms and causing favourable ratios of attrittion.

Similar to a poker player who plays tight-aggressive -- fold every hand and then
raise / trap when the opponent believes they possess the better hand, when in reality
they are about to lose the full buy-in with a pair of kings against my set of Tens.

Aka. the real pacific war December 1941 - June 1942 = Sir Robin (run and hide your CVs, maybe annoy the enemy (Kwajelein raid / Doolittle Raid)

June 1944 - August 1945 = Sir Lancellot (use your CVs to hack and smash eveything in the entire pacific ocean (Truk Raid, Battle of Phippline Sea, Battle of Leyte Gulf)

Essentially the question in warfare is always to preserve ones strategic initiative or to reclaim the initiative by denying battle until favourable circumstances are obtained whereby such a battle would yield a mathematically viable outcome.

One could imagine if the IJN would have ignored pearl harbour and used their full assets to subdue the SRA in a more expedient fashion.

The events would have been as follows:

1) IJN declares war and strikes the phillipines
2) Imbeciles at pre-war US Navy keep their positions and send battleships
to relieve the phillipines (as prescribed by War Plan Orange)
3) Carriers used to screen the battleships are sunk by land-based aircraft (G3M/G4M) flying out of Wake Island / Marianas / Etc. (pre-war doctrine demanded that carriers opearate in a spread-out fashion and provide reconnaisance to the battleship line)
4) US Navy is stunned and decides whether to retreat
5) IJN sends carrier force and sinks US Navy Battleships

Final US Losses : 85% of navy assets, 125,000 personnell.
Final Outcome: Peace deal obtained


As history indicates, the replacement staff (Nimitz, Spruance, etc) saved the western worldfrom a serious disaster with the discipline and logic to implement the Fabian (aka Sir Robin) strategy of withdrawl and harrassment that would eventually place friendly forces in a position to reclaim (and uphold) the strategic initiative in the Pacific theater.
Additional credit to Roosevelt for suggesting to build the Independence Class of Carriers.




Nemo121 -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 8:22:23 AM)

Hmm, a lot of people seem to be lauding Sir Robin as reasonable when what they are, in fact, talking about is a fairly reasonable fighting withdrawal.

The Sir Robin as I understand it is all about running away and fighting almost nowhere on the basis that one is "too weak" to fight effectively. I think that if your opponent identifies 5 basic areas in which the Japanese are going to advance and decides to concentrate his strength in 1 or 2 of those area then he isn't playing a Sir Robin at all. Sir Robin would concentrate his strength in Aden or CONUSA and leave all 5 of these areas to be over-run should the Japanese player push hard enough.

Not fighting where you don't actually have a chance in order to concentrate force elsewhere isn't really what I understand by Sir Robin. FWIW I think Sir Robin is a very sub-optimal strategic choice. It neither slows the Japanese sufficiently nor, when combined with the additional territory which must be recaptured if the Japanese player is competent, saves sufficient force or time to succeed as a strategic choice. Its only real benefit is that it helps players who lack confidence and ability as they never have to try to do "more with less" and can, instead, just sit back until they have sufficient force that even their lack of confidence in their abilities no longer holds them back.

Even if ability is a problem I would suggest that the goal of gaming shouldn't be to win but should, instead, be to play as good a game as you can and the way to get better is to undertake those kinds of operations which you are poor at, suffer disaster and then analyse what you did wrong so you don't repeat that error. Rinse and repeat until you are good enough to fight the Japanese for every base from Day 1.



AirGriff -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 3:21:18 PM)

Well said, Nemo.  Of course, in this game, one rinse and repeat cycle takes about 3 years!



Hawspipe -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 8:04:24 PM)

He who runs away, lives to run away again another day.



AW1Steve -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 8:14:35 PM)

And he who defends all, defends nothing....



Cathartes -> RE: What's the Sir Robin strategy? (9/27/2008 8:48:09 PM)

Sir Robin Hybrid. As a PBEM Allied player I organized and fought a delaying action at a few key locations knowing full well that I would ultimately lose it, but further knowing that fighting long and well in location A was going to have consequences in location B.

Loction C, D, E, F were worth clearing out as fast as possible and consolidating in location G IN CASE the enemy came knocking on that door which you definitely didn't want them to enter. The dance of points, delay, and trap-setting. Savvy?
.
.
.
.
Ironically, I'm seeing my PBEM player do the same thing to me now that the Allies begin hitting back in late '43.



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