Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (Full Version)

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SteveD64 -> Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 6:53:41 PM)

So my wily opponent has created a gigantic artillery stack that is vaporizing my infantry (it's only 1914 so trenches aren't in full bloom). I lost 49 strength points in one attack so in revenge I scraped together a couple corps and assaulted his hex. I won obviously but because you can't actually kill artillery units I'm now adjacent to his killer stack. I decided to retreat back to my original position.

Artillery alone in a hex has basically unlimited stacking and cannot be killed, which is bizarre.

Any counter measures?



FrankHunter -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:10:13 PM)

Trenches are the best counter-measure.  But as you say, its 1914.  They are limited by stacking to a degree but the big issue in 1914 would be available reloads. 

The new 1.2 returns the rule allowing artillery to be overrun instead of retreating.




SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:23:42 PM)

I like the sound of this new patch!  

I guess in the meantime I create my own invulnerable super stack. 



James Ward -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:24:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FrankHunter

Trenches are the best counter-measure.  But as you say, its 1914.  They are limited by stacking to a degree but the big issue in 1914 would be available reloads. 

The new 1.2 returns the rule allowing artillery to be overrun instead of retreating.




That makes more sense to me. Artillery alone in a hex should be easy pickings for a ground assault.



SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:25:15 PM)

No kidding!  I could've bagged like 5 artillery units.  [:@]



pat.casey -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:30:41 PM)

Even so, it does seem like the single most efficient way to use your industry is on artillery and reloads.

1 Industry is 5 infantry
1 Industry is 3 barrage point

1 Barrage will kill, on average, a lot more than 5/3 of an infantryman.




SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 7:36:43 PM)

Yeah, in an AAR I'm reading it seems the Entente player has stopped refitting infantry and is only building artillery and air units.  Seems like a good (if ahistorical) plan.  Artillery seems a bit, um, over-powered.



EUBanana -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:00:13 PM)

I think artillery should be good and devastating, but it should be a complementary thing.  Historically artillery superiority was kindof a must if they were going to get anywhere.  Combined arms and all that.

The idea of stacking hexes with just artillery and then devastating the enemy is surely wrong.  I think artillery should definitely be vulnerable to being overrun.  Perhaps some formula to determine it based on how soundly the attacker wins in the hex, then if someone is really having a laugh with zero infantry there, when the attacker comes in and massively outnumbers the defence as a result the artillery can suffer big time, whereas if there was at least some defenders there maybe the artillery can get away with it.

I do think that the way arty works at the moment is generally good though, you certainly get the idea of bleeding in vast amounts just to hold ground, which IMO is the way it should be.



FrankHunter -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:05:49 PM)

I probably tended to use more trenches in my testing than some of you. 

Just to explain my thinking on the subject, it was apparent that trenches were constructed deeper and deeper into the ground to avoid the effects of modern artillery.  In 1914, before the trenches really got going, artillery was extremely effective.  Even in the Franco-Prussian War it was German artillery that won those battles in spite of the advantage the French had with the chassepots.  Be making artillety powerful, I found it provided the reason to build trenches and that that reasoning was historical.

The game is obviously being played far more now than we were able to in testing so all of your feedback on whether artillery is too powerful is more than welcome. 

Perhaps trenches aren't effective enough against artillery?




SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:12:32 PM)

Just to throw out some ideas-  possibly increase the stacking value for artillery?  Create a "law of diminishing returns" for artillery?  Increase the purchase costs for barrages? 

Anyway, the overrun rule should really help.  The artillery rules probably won't need tweaking after that.

EDIT: Frank, about trenches, yes that is one possiblity and I think the most elegant solution.



Rob Brennan UK -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:27:03 PM)

I like the idea of diminishing returns for what its worth. Stops the uber-stack of killer artillery and with the new over runs (1.2) should prevent player abuse (which is what it is imo).

Maybe an idea of stacking with max 1 arty per hex ? (no diminishing returns) so hexes in a bulge will be very vulnerable but fronts a lot less so.


just my 2p



hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:32:08 PM)

The only tweaking i think necessary is to increase the benefit of trenches towards artillery a bit. Another way to go around this is to allow for entrenching more than one level per turn - it's just way to difficult to get and maintain high levels of entrenchment as it is now.

That will also create incentive to research higher artillery tech which is not really needed as it is now.



hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:35:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

The idea of stacking hexes with just artillery and then devastating the enemy is surely wrong.



Ahh well that strategy of Ulver is going to be proved working first [;)]

If i were his enemy i would stage an all out campaign against France no matter what the cost else where.

But thats just me of course [:D]



Sardonic -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:37:47 PM)

I DONT think arty is too powerfull. In fact in certain instances, I think it is too weak.

The examples where arty REALLY kicked ass, is where a barrage caught an assault formation, forming up.

In both WW1 and WW2, the infantry were simply slaughtered.

Nor do I think that Barrage is too expensive. I think it may need to be MORE expensive.

Now Arty landing on a dispersed formation, in trenchs, minimal impact.
A 12 day barrage, landing on dispersed infantry, a profound psych effect, if minimal tactical.

Also, in a war where Arty is pulled by tractor, and infantry advances on foot....
A battery would easily get away.



freeboy -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:46:36 PM)

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative.. although I am not sure, does art attacks cause losses to readiness? seems that is where we may direct our focus, no?

regarding artillery being over run, surely cavalry and tanks would get them, what about historicalresults in the 1916- 1919 period? I admit I am at a loss on that one.. anyone better informed than myself?



hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:49:29 PM)

By the way Frank - why isn't there a limited number of available artillery units to create for each country ? With a limitation on number of corps there should be a restraint on artillery as well ?



hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 8:52:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative.. although I am not sure, does art attacks cause losses to readiness? seems that is where we may direct our focus, no?



Yes units loose readiness. The worse the quality the more they loose. That's just fine as it is now.

As mentioned i think to best solution is to increase the pace you can create trenches in.



*Lava* -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:03:11 PM)

This is a difficult subject...

But if artillery weren't a big killer...

...it wouldn't be WWI.

As for overrun... dunno. When you consider the battlefield, filled with shell holes and trenches, seems like it is highly improbable that you are going to overrun artillery.

I believe a more historic way to go is increasing the effectiveness of counter battery especially against a dense target. Thus, if a dude wants to stack all his artillery on one hex, he would be far more vulnerable from enemy artillery that is better dispersed.

Ray (alias Lava)



SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:29:04 PM)

Holding a hex with nothing but artillery units is pretty far out of line with history.  As it stands now there is no incentive to stack infantry units with artillery because artillery simply cannot be killed by enemy infantry.  There has to be a reason to use combined arms and the overrun rule sounds like a solution to me.



James Ward -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:38:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I tend to agree with my friend above, Artillery seems to be about right, trenches seem to reduce the attacks to njormative..


Have you played the War Without End scenario?
Even level 3 and 4 trenches don't keep artillery from doing 10-12 sp per impulse, about 30 sp per turn. At 2,000 men per sp that seems like a lot for even high level trenches. And the other drawback is that you can destroy 1 level of trench per ipulse but can only build 1 level per strategi phase. So while you may have level 4 trench researched you can easily be prevented from ever getting to that level.



*Lava* -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:39:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND

Holding a hex with nothing but artillery units is pretty far out of line with history.


I'm not sure how common that is of a tactic by players, but I'm still not sure that over running is the answer.

The problem IMO is heavily stacked hexes (with concentrated artillery protected by infantry) in which the player's artillery is pretty much invulnerable and able to rain an enormous amount of damage on you without any sort of recourse.

The historic answer is effective counter battery both on defense and in advance of an attack.

I'll leave it at that.

Ray (alias Lava)



James Ward -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:45:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

This is a difficult subject...

But if artillery weren't a big killer...

...it wouldn't be WWI.

As for overrun... dunno. When you consider the battlefield, filled with shell holes and trenches, seems like it is highly improbable that you are going to overrun artillery.

I believe a more historic way to go is increasing the effectiveness of counter battery especially against a dense target. Thus, if a dude wants to stack all his artillery on one hex, he would be far more vulnerable from enemy artillery that is better dispersed.

Ray (alias Lava)


I agree that artillery should be able to cause losses particularly where no trenches are present. But if artillery barrages could kill the way they do in this game then the war would have been even bloodier!
I wouldn't mind seeing artillery revamped. Perhaps it can cause more loss of effectivness and less loss to trenches or limiting how often they can fire by making them all like siege guns where you need one impulse to load before you can fire or capping the number of points that can fire into a hex.
Also while artillery may not be able to be easily overrun it was NEVER the only unit defending the line. Perhaps requiring at least one infanrty/cav corp per artillery unit in a hex would prevent having 12 artillery units roll up to the front lines and dropping an Atomic Bomb on the enemy [:)]



James Ward -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 9:50:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lava

quote:

ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND

Holding a hex with nothing but artillery units is pretty far out of line with history.


I'm not sure how common that is of a tactic by players, but I'm still not sure that over running is the answer.

The problem IMO is heavily stacked hexes (with concentrated artillery protected by infantry) in which the player's artillery is pretty much invulnerable and able to rain an enormous amount of damage on you without any sort of recourse.

The historic answer is effective counter battery both on defense and in advance of an attack.

I'll leave it at that.

Ray (alias Lava)


Part of the problem is that artillery can't be destroyed by ground attack unless it is totally surrounded. So even if you wipe out the defenders infantry the artillery retreats and ends up right next to you ready to bombard your exhuasted but victorious forces. And of course you have no artillery because it can't move into combat so you have to chance at counter-battery fire.
Maybe a solution is that artillery can take strength point losses like all other units if it is forced to retreat after a combat.



SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 10:10:54 PM)

Artillery wears out and has to be replaced so the overrun rule could reflect attrition as well?   I dunno.  I guess if I knew what the overrun rule actually was I could be in a better position to comment-  as it is I'm just throwing ideas out there to see what sticks.  [:)]



pat.casey -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 10:24:23 PM)

Part of it may just be that artillery reloads are too cheap right now. I mean it took the British months to accumulate enough shells for the Somme and they blew them all out in seven days (and didn't kill that many germans either despite sending 1,000,000 shells down range).

As it stands right now, for 4 industry points, I can run a dozen barrages a turn which seems out of whack and probably kill off 40-50 SP of infantry, even in trenches. Especially if I plaster the same hex every turn I'll usually destroy the trenches as I go.

Seems like one long rupture inducing barrage per turn is about reasonable in terms of what shell factories could produce above and beyond normal "wastage".




hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 10:37:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

Part of it may just be that artillery reloads are too cheap right now. I mean it took the British months to accumulate enough shells for the Somme and they blew them all out in seven days (and didn't kill that many germans either despite sending 1,000,000 shells down range).



Actually you are wrong here - Entente artillery was the big killer and the main reason why their attrition strategy worked at all. Yes Britain and France wasted their manhood with stupid tactics but in all the major offensives after the race to the sea and up until the introduction of tanks committed in large numbers losses were actually quite even on both sides.



SteveD64 -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 11:16:12 PM)

Did I read somewhere that the losses on the WesternFront in 1914 were equal to the losses in '15, '16 and '17 combined?  Or am I hallucinating again?

or maybe it was the losses in August-December '14 were more than any whole year until 1918



hjaco -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/14/2007 11:47:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CLEVELAND

Did I read somewhere that the losses on the WesternFront in 1914 were equal to the losses in '15, '16 and '17 combined? Or am I hallucinating again?

or maybe it was the losses in August-December '14 were more than any whole year until 1918


I very much doubt that but it may be that losses measured in % of total forces committed came up to these figures ?

With regard to losses at the first battle of Somme alone:

"By the end of the battle, the British Army had suffered 420,000 casualties including nearly 60,000 on the first day alone. The French lost 200,000 men and the Germans nearly 500,000."



pat.casey -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/15/2007 1:12:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hjaco


quote:

ORIGINAL: pat.casey

Part of it may just be that artillery reloads are too cheap right now. I mean it took the British months to accumulate enough shells for the Somme and they blew them all out in seven days (and didn't kill that many germans either despite sending 1,000,000 shells down range).



Actually you are wrong here - Entente artillery was the big killer and the main reason why their attrition strategy worked at all. Yes Britain and France wasted their manhood with stupid tactics but in all the major offensives after the race to the sea and up until the introduction of tanks committed in large numbers losses were actually quite even on both sides.


I believe this is a function of the late war improvements in heavy gun tubes. At the time of the Somme, the British were firing largely light artillery with shrapnel which, while nice against infantry in the open, was virtually useless against heavily fortified positions where the Germans had heavy bomb proofs (with roofs).

My general opinion after having read a number of accounts of the Somme is that the British were shocked at how poorly their massive artillery bombardment performed. The wire wasn't cut, and the german defenders were still alive. Not a good combination.



EUBanana -> RE: Killer Artillery Stacks - Tactical advice (9/15/2007 1:23:49 AM)

I think trenches could do with being a bit better all around, to be honest.  After all the war was famous for them, they should be pretty good, right?

I think artillery should be regularly bleeding your men, that should not change.  After all, in WW1 they lost a lot of men even without offensives going on.  "wastage", the generals called it.  Simply maintaining a front should cost you troops. 

But the trenches don't really help much.  I've dug trenches in all my games up to level 3, it doesn't really stop artillery that much.  Partly because the arty keeps knocking the trenches down all the time.  I've not seen many AARs where heavy fortification played a major role.  I've never been inclined to research tanks or assault troops in a PBEM because trenches are never an issue.  My artillery can blow trenches away and slaughter bad guys at the same time.



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