RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (Full Version)

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Vypuero -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 2:06:19 AM)

Also - have not both Targul and Hans stated they don't like the game and it is a waste of $50?  If so, what are they trying to accomplish?



O.O. Howard -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 2:38:47 AM)

Friends,

The internet forum turns all of us consumers into critics. Not that we really are experts. On some forums it is really a mess, with some people doing nothing but making critical comments 24/7.

People are screaming for a product to be released, and are sure the game 'should have been released yesterday'... then a week after game goes gold the SAME people scream how the game wasnt ready for public consumption. People buy a certain type of game, properly advertised and fairly described and reviewed online... people know what they bought and still we complain that the game isnt a different type of game. I was practically doing this with Commander when i mentioned how great it would be if the game had a random map generator. This suggestion is a polite sort of criticism, but it really isnt fair. I bought a WWII game played on a map of Europe. I am grateful someone made it. I would buy it again if I had the choice. Let me make my comment in a more positive way: I would buy a random map generator expansion pack for this game! More fun!

This forum hasn't gotten that bad, though. It is mostly pretty polite. Easy for me to say, since i dont have to feel any heartache or any financial ramifications from what people say here. I get the impression that most indie designers dont make much money, or lose money. Is it really in our interest to drive these guys into the ground?

This is the price Johan pays for being so accessable: People (including me, which i feel a little bad about) get to slap him around a little.

Johan slapped back when a threshold total was crossed, which isnt a big deal. It wont hurt the sales of the game, or even the person he aimed at. I think it was more a build-up at the on-going advise/criticism.

If we gamers want to have immediate full personal access to the game designer we have to remember that he is not a corporation lawyer or a PR guy, but a wargamer like us. At some point he gets a little tired of being on the defensive turn after turn after turn. We all know how it feels, you want to break out, move your tanks forward and counterpunch. Cant blame a guy for striking back, we all would do like he did sooner or later.

Or would we rather have a nice corporate PR guy who doesnt like wargames, doesnt like wargamers, and who doesnt know anything whatsoever to be here representing the game instead of Johan? The PR guy would NEVER lose his cool because he doesnt care what we think. Only the big corporations can afford those PR guys. Is that where we want wargames to go?

Why are we shooting at an honest man who made a nice game? Think of the games we bought over the years that didnt function, that didnt do what they promised. Think of the designers who took our money and ran.

Lets save our ammo for the truly bad guys. Johan is not the bad guy, he is one of us except he had the talent and dedication to make this game.

This game works. It is exactly what it says. The design team are improving it.

Good deal?

Yes.











SMK-at-work -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 6:02:01 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Also - have not both Targul and Hans stated they don't like the game and it is a waste of $50? If so, what are they trying to accomplish?


Presumably they're trying to be helpful to people unsure whether to buy the game or not by saving them $50 - sheesh - even I can figure that out.




SMK-at-work -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 6:11:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

I never meant in any way that we do not want criticism or do not listen to feedback. We have used alot of input from beta testers and players to improve the game in early phases and past release for patches but we also try to explain what we can do for the game engine and what cannot be changed.


Yep - and that's quite fair enough too.

I don't criticise this game - I tell it like it is (IMO of course :)) - and IMO this game is WW2-lite.

It has a passing semblance to WW2, but it should no way be considered a simulation of that conflict in any serious way.

But that's OK, because it was decided fairly early on that that was what the Designers wanted it to be, and they said so, and that's all OK.

However what does irk me somewhat is the hyperbole that surrounds some of the advertising and fandom ...eg

quote:

the Grand Campaign that will let the player refight the entirety of the Second World War the way they see fit!
(from hte advertising blurb for patch 1.02)

Well quite frankly to me that is nonsense.

This is a game based on WW2, but the "realistic combat mechanisms" (op cit) are nothing of the sort, and you're palpably NOT refighting WW2 (or even simulating it) - just something vaguely resembling it.

So to me the "over the top" comments of Targul and Hans are no worse than the over-the-top comments of the advertising blurbs and the "must buy" comments of the fans.

The game does deserve to have fans - it works, it's a fine game.

But it's been hyped as the best WW2 game since god knows when and it isn't. (all IMO of course)

I have a vested interest - I was a beta tester, and I am disappointed in the result. But then I wanted a immersive and simple simulation of WW2, not WW2-lite or strategic Panzer-general.




Irish Guards -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 6:34:20 AM)

Ire glad nay speak ... [X(]
IDG



Dion -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 8:18:58 AM)

The UI in this game is simply outstanding. This game is about ease of play, but it has no stupid rules. It's simplicity comes from a very player friendly UI. I think it's the greatest wargame ever made! You have to get this one.



Marc von Martial -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 3:17:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

I find this post patently offensive.

You should be ashamed.

p.s. In my anger over your post I completely forgot to provide my opinion and recommendation in response to the original poster's question. Don't buy, huge waste of $70.



You are right, the customer is always right. Even if he is not [8|]

You people should be happy that developers come here, discuss openly with you gamers (which is not a common thing in this industry and I hate it when developers do it not) and based on the feedback improve many of the releases and projects. Which Johann has done too.

You find hist post offensive? Jesus Christ, do you want to know how we find some posts directed at us here???
Johann directed valid questions at him, maybe a bit passionate, so what, some of the BS posts I have to read here can't even be considered passionate anymore.

We have no problem with constructive critics and feedback. We have a straight record of supplying good discussions, patches and updates for our product. Fast even.

If you can talk straight to the horse's mouth don't be shocked when the horse talks back once in a while.



Erik Rutins -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 4:01:34 PM)

Ok, let's all calm down please.

Iain had it right - it takes time to build up a thick enough skin to have people criticize something you've spent a lot of personal effort on without getting upset. With that said, I can't think of a single game we've released that doesn't have its share of critics, even if the majority feel that it's the best thing since sliced bread. Opinions about games are a dime a dozen and reasonable people will disagree - it's a subjective thing.

We do try to be careful not to advertise a game as something it's not and I think CEAW was advertised as what it is - I haven't heard from anyone who thought this would be War in Russia + Western Front combined or anything like that. This is definitely in the vein of SC1, Clash of Steel, etc. and if you liked those you'll probably like CEAW as well.

Carry on...

Regards,

- Erik



Bossy573 -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 5:56:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dion

The UI in this game is simply outstanding.



Indeed. Count me in on the pro-CEAW crowd. A great game that does exactly what it sets out to do, gives the less than expert wargamer a sandbox to play WWII in with ease and a minimum of fuss or overbearing rules or complexity. IMHO of course.



targul -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/6/2007 8:07:10 PM)

Well, once again I cause an uproar.  Once again I am told I do not like the game.  Once again I was personnally attacked for my opinions on the game.

First I did not even mean to post on this forum.  I thought I was answering the question to the requester via email concerning MH and this game.  Suddendly as is normal in this forum I am attacked because of my opinion.  No where did I say the game was bad.  What I said was the game was weak and lacked WWII simulation and had little replayability. 

The only reason I was here at all was I was downloading 1.04 to see if the game had become more accurate.  They may not like it but since I do own the game I do download the updates and check to see if they made the game better. 

For those who do not like my opinion too bad.  But this is a very good game but it simply does not reflect WWII.  That as I have said before is not bad if you do not call it a WWII game but you do.

Anyway, creator of this game you did a good job for your first effort.  It has great potential but you need to learn to look at the boards for ways to improve your game instead of complain about those who feel it is below potential as I do.

By the way, you keep mentioning SC2 as my game and that I am promoting it but actually I am primarily playing CWIE and Civ3 Conquests.  Havent played SC2 in months I am awaiting WAW expansion.

Good luck to my friends and foes.  I shall try and hit the correct button and only email certainly didnt mean to make the post that started all this uproar.




SMK-at-work -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 12:23:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dion

The UI in this game is simply outstanding. This game is about ease of play, but it has no stupid rules. It's simplicity comes from a very player friendly UI. I think it's the greatest wargame ever made! You have to get this one.


Of course it has stupid rules - no retreat and convoys taking 4 times as long to cross the atlantic as they did in real life spring to mind immediately.

Eric is right - if you like SC2 you should like this - it is of a similar vein.

I think SC2 is WW2-lite too.

the idea that it is the greatest wargame ever made is pure hyperbole and not worth further comment.



YohanTM2 -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 1:05:45 AM)

Looks like Johann's Mom is now posting <g>

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dion

The UI in this game is simply outstanding. This game is about ease of play, but it has no stupid rules. It's simplicity comes from a very player friendly UI. I think it's the greatest wargame ever made! You have to get this one.




YohanTM2 -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 1:10:53 AM)

But seriously, people are getting over the top. I rated this game a 3 out of 5 with hopes for better for the patches which unfortunately did not go in the direction I had hoped so I do not play it anymore and know others who feel the same.

Having said that, I think it is very easy to play, unbeleivably stable and had some excellent innovations.

It may not be what I want, but it is a ton better than most games out there and from a first time designer so I congratulate Johann for that.



Major Victory -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 1:28:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dion

The UI in this game is simply outstanding. This game is about ease of play, but it has no stupid rules. It's simplicity comes from a very player friendly UI. I think it's the greatest wargame ever made! You have to get this one.


GO LEAFS GO!!



Magpius -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 3:55:30 AM)

Reasons to buy this game:
a) Good Introductory level wargame
b) Offers good challenging A.I. (subsequent challenge levels don't cause cheats in combat odds.)
c) It has hexes! (it looks like a wargame map)
d) A straightforward User interface. (so you are battling game units and not the interface when playing)
e) A reasonable level of customisation. (more graphic mods and scenario mods are appearing)
f) Developer and distributor are actively monitoring feedback and listening. (as seen in this thread [:)], and are bringing out patches as necessary).
g) Good customer support (Matrix resolved installer issues quickly when recently discovered in 1.03 patch).
g) Game length is reasonable, (you don't lose track of game strategies playable in a couple of evenings (or 1 long night).

Reasons not to buy the game
a) The toolbar interface takes up too much screen real estate.
b) The max game resolution is only 1024x768, making it look a little fuzzy, (screenshots were/ are graphically misleading)
c) There are cheaper alternatives. (comes down to game type/ choice).
d) Scenario/ Graphic modding not as simple some other games (TOAW/ SC2)
e) There is a strategic predictability how to beat the A.I, (which may have been addressed in the latest patch).
f) It's a little odd the the matrix and slitherine installers are different, which can cause staggered release times of upgrades. (Slitherine's a couple of days in front.)

I have no regrets buying this game, and have enjoyed the hours I have spent playing it.
I would also recommend this game to others, either looking for an introduction into the niche genre or for more experienced gamers looking for something to 'chill out' with.

As to the above smack-talk, when this game was released, the SC2 forum was full of colourful smug talk about how superior, their game was to this upstart. As I stated there and reiterate here, be thankful we actually have a choice.

A.S.
(edited with corrrection as indicated by SMK below)



SMK-at-work -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/7/2007 4:07:35 AM)


Reason not to buy (f) is simply untrue - the Matrix and Slitherine versions are not different - the installers are different, hence you need to get patches from whoever you bought the game from, but the games are the same thing and you can play 1 vs the other in both TCP/IP and PBEM.



Happycat -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/9/2007 6:26:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

Your opinion is not that of the majority and after monitoring this for a long while (your posting history) my conclusion is that you are actively spreading rumors and half truths about CEaW. We have gamespot votes, reviews and also a voting topic (that you also posted in hence read) where ppl on this forum rated CEaW and everything suggests that you speak for a minority at best since most ppl say they enjoy the game!

P.S
A while back you said you were leaving this game and forum and wished to head back to Battlefront and play SC2. Now that you evidently are back one can wonder if your intent is to start playing this game again or to continue where you left of (as seems by the posts) to throw dirt on CEaW, Slitherine, Matrix, Firepower and everyone else here that are trying to make good wargames. If SC2 really is that good and since you rated CEaW as mediocre previously, what is it that drives you back here?

[img]http://starwarsloser.info/smile/happy/happy0065.gif[/img]




wargamer123 -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/9/2007 7:17:50 PM)

Well, I think I need to add my 2 cents in here. I personally use to play wargames with Johan, he was not as good as myself.. Better at Poker.. I also remeber when we both spoke of the creation of a WW2 game, something I do not have the patience nor the know-how to create, he asked me for help. I had a complex understanding of mechanics and warfare as I'm personally in love with WW2 and all the games that ever came out for it, less tactical, more mix with strategy being the center-tactical the weaker point... In essence few know how reality and wargames relate, aside from true Generals. I've known some brass, they'd love a title like this, they don't want go home to something as complicated as work! :P

When you attack him as the other Matrix Fellow described, you attacked his game, etc... you made him feel belittled and his work. Not right! If the game is too simple or too basic for you, then there are much more complex titles. I can pretty much tell, that CEAW is simplistic, easy to learn and very appealing in that. The price is standard for anything that is new! If $50.00 displeases you, wait 6 months or a year, they lower prices usually... I will wait till I can get a cheaper version or a demo...

I am waiting to buy due to financial constraint, no cheapness and no detest for the title or the creator. I think Johan did something that is Amazing, he finished a book, and published it. Envious, many would be. I dreamt of creating my first wargame at 14, on the level of World in Flames, but I didn't have a grasp them to create such a thing. He has done this, and this game can advance as can the Genre of Strategic Games of WW2 if we support them. So please do not put him down, rather aide him and tell him "nicely," what you'd like. I know plenty of you from other Places, I'm Liam from SC and EU boards... Hotheaded but control your temper please, it's not like SC-CEAW-HOI-World in Flames-World at War, etc... are moneymakers... we have to HUNT them up to buy them..and all their predecessors


In my experience, those who do not like you fall into two categories: the stupid, and the envious. The stupid will like you in five years time, the envious never."



Syagrius -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/9/2007 7:33:02 PM)

Its a thing saying once you don't like a game. But there is "no life" people continuously posting negative stuff about the game.  That is what Johan dont like and its the same for me.  You can say you dont like something, but to come here over and over again to say it is simply stupid.

Love the game by the way [:)]



Erik Rutins -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/10/2007 1:29:09 AM)

All right, just as we can avoid getting personal when criticizing the game, let's not get personal just because someone may not like it.



JudgeDredd -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/12/2007 2:56:45 PM)

Well, well, well.

I never thought I'd see the like....a long, drawn out thread with a distinct negative light about a fantastic game.

Johan, I think you did extremely well for your first attempt. I have had and am still having hours of fun (I hate the subs though) and I thank you very much for a great game which, imho, was well worth the money I paid.

Sure you have things to learn, but your first attempt was very, very promising. I look forward to see what else you conjour up in your career!

And I am NOT Johans mother! [:'(]

**edited for spelling (as usual! [8|])



Syagrius -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/12/2007 6:02:26 PM)

Well said Judge.  I tried several times to get info from Johan and Ian about the next game in the series however they still dont want to say anything about it! [:'(]




SeaMonkey -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/12/2007 6:57:58 PM)

Some work on the naval aspects and the amphibious features, some more fine tuning on the air to naval relationship and then move this baby into the Pacific.

There's really no competition in the Pacific.

This is the arena to really improve this game model, immediately into the forefront of everyones attention, hence there will be much more feedback and a faster evolution of the game's acceptance.

Later, come back to ETO and tie both of them in.



Syagrius -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/12/2007 7:28:54 PM)

The map of a Pacific game should include Burma and Malaysia to cover the important battles fought over there (like the fall of Singapore and Imphal).  The east coast of China and Manchuria also. 



leastonh1 -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/24/2007 4:51:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Barthheart
I ran screaming from it and it's gotta be my 451st wargame......[X(][:'(]


Me too! I looked, I drooled, I ran away. It was a seriously good game, but without retiring and giving up all family life I'd never have time to play WitP unfortunately. Besides, it would probably take me years to learn.

@anyone...

CEAW looks really good on paper, and it's great that we're being given some choices for the newcomers to look at properly. The grognards are never going to be happy because you can't realistically recreate war without actually having one! The noobs who want to try something a little more cerebral than the latest Doom clone are going to be put off by complex rules and intricate micromanagement. So, this game hides all the stuff mere mortals don't care about and lets you just dive in and play by the looks of it.

Regards,
Jim



ravinhood -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/24/2007 5:57:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The hobby could honestly use a few more games like CEAW and CAW. Games with less severe learning curves and modern interfaces are great tools to appeal to a wider audience and get more folks into wargaming. Sure, some folks jump right in with WITP, but most would run screaming from it if it were their first wargame.


I'm glad SOMEONE finally heard me at Matrixgames about less detailed more fun easy to learn hard to master type entry level games. :)

The only issue "I" have with this entry level game is the PRICE!! Cmon $59.99 for THIS?!! You aren't going to get very many NEWcomers to wargaming with a price like that for a toddlers toy entry level wargame Erik.

I've always admired Slitherines prices (before Matrixgames got their grubby greedy little hands on them) when they sold brand new games for $29.99 (I got Spartan for $29.99 less $10.00 off coupon) ;) You need to whittle the price of this game back down to at least $39.99 (before christmas special) to be fair and really open the door for these socalled NEWcomers to wargaming you speak of.



Joe D. -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/24/2007 8:00:08 PM)

It's hard to buy a (new) good game for < $50, unless you do what I did and wait several years to buy Rome: Total War for $15!

However, I notice Matrix games don't go down in price w/age, although there is the occaisional "blitz" sale.



Vypuero -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/24/2007 10:44:13 PM)

It costs $50



slybelle -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/24/2007 11:10:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The hobby could honestly use a few more games like CEAW and CAW. Games with less severe learning curves and modern interfaces are great tools to appeal to a wider audience and get more folks into wargaming. Sure, some folks jump right in with WITP, but most would run screaming from it if it were their first wargame.


I'm glad SOMEONE finally heard me at Matrixgames about less detailed more fun easy to learn hard to master type entry level games. :)

The only issue "I" have with this entry level game is the PRICE!! Cmon $59.99 for THIS?!! You aren't going to get very many NEWcomers to wargaming with a price like that for a toddlers toy entry level wargame Erik.

I've always admired Slitherines prices (before Matrixgames got their grubby greedy little hands on them) when they sold brand new games for $29.99 (I got Spartan for $29.99 less $10.00 off coupon) ;) You need to whittle the price of this game back down to at least $39.99 (before christmas special) to be fair and really open the door for these socalled NEWcomers to wargaming you speak of.



For me it is not so much spending the $50-$60, its spending that kind of money without knowing whether I would ultimately like it. That is where a demo would be great. Without it, really hard to keep spending that kind of money just to try games that I may never like.

The review sounded good so I'm hoping someday a demo is released for us 'fence sitters' to try it out.



ravinhood -> RE: To Buy Or Not To Buy? That Is The Question... (10/25/2007 1:48:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

It costs $50


You forget the physical copy is $10 more plus shipping and handling. And whatever even $50 is too much for THIS game in particular. Way too much. If I were a newcomer to wargaming I wouldn't pay $50 for this. Not when there are other entry level wargames for much less.



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