F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best?

F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (Full Version)

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moose1999 -> F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 3:07:35 PM)
I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage of upgrading my F4F-3's to F4F-4's. It seems the F4F-3 is better than the 4 in both manoeuvre an climb, while the 4 has a better load and 12 guns instead of 8. Is this difference to the advantage of the F4F-4? It doesn't really look like it to me. I would say manoeuvre and climb are very important to a fighter, and since I can't see what load would matter to a fighter, the sole purpose of upgrading should be to get 4 more guns on the plane (paying for it in climb and man.) Is the 4 extra guns worth it ? I'm playing Nikmod, by the way.

Wolfie1 -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 3:11:30 PM)
Personally I think the F4F-3 is the better aircraft.

moose1999 -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 3:14:23 PM)
So do I. In the game at least. Don't know if that was the case too in real life. Anybody know what the historical truth is in this case...? Which version did the real pilots prefer?

castor troy -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 3:23:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: briny_norman I'm having a hard time seeing the advantage of upgrading my F4F-3's to F4F-4's. It seems the F4F-3 is better than the 4 in both manoeuvre an climb, while the 4 has a better load and 12 guns instead of 8. Is this difference to the advantage of the F4F-4? It doesn't really look like it to me. I would say manoeuvre and climb are very important to a fighter, and since I can't see what load would matter to a fighter, the sole purpose of upgrading should be to get 4 more guns on the plane (paying for it in climb and man.) Is the 4 extra guns worth it ? I'm playing Nikmod, by the way. In the game (even more so in NM IMO) fire power is very important, so I would prefer the F4. Would be cool to have 4 .50 cal more though there are only two more... [;)]

spence -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 5:45:23 PM)
F3F-3s lacked armor (though some was added in the field) and some at least lacked self sealing gas tanks. Also, their wings didn't fold so the size of the fighter group was limited. Recognized as something less than the ideal dogfighter the 6 guns put out more firepower in the short intervals (as deflection shooting was doctrine) when the plane's guns might bear.

Mistmatz -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 5:45:41 PM)
In CHS you're trading one point of maneuverability plus an increased extended range and 12knots higher speed for one armour, +8 on guns and a replacement rate of 90 vs 1. A much easier decision I'd say. [:D]

AW1Steve -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 6:07:28 PM)
[:)] From what everyone has said , it seems the logical deployment is to put F4F4s on carrier (for larger numbers) and use F4F3s in VMF squadrons ashore (manueveability). I always find that I seldom have enough F4F4s and that deployment should help.[:)]

Nikademus -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 10:56:48 PM)
F4F-4 hands down in Nikmod. The extra firepower of the Browning Sixpack coupled with good pilots will give Betty and Zero coniption fits

Big B -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (9/30/2007 11:43:07 PM)
In the B-Mod, it may be a toss-up. Just as I gave the Oscar, Claude, and Nate an accuracy bonus for an all center-line armament (which has proved worthwhile) - I gave the F4F-3 an accuracy bonus to account for the fact that they carried 450 rds pr gun compared to 270 rpg for the F4F-4. Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. However, I still gave the F4F-4 better armor than the F4F-3, and the F4F-4 will still have a better barrage value when it fires...so numbers aside, I think it will be a toss-up in B-Mod.

wdolson -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 12:58:22 AM)
One thing the game should have, but doesn't is how much space each aircraft takes up on a carrier. The F4F-4, with it's folding wings took up much less space on a carrier, which allowed the number of fighters to be increased. Even that aside, as others have said, the F4F-4 is tougher, and since the game doesn't track ammo usage, it has more punch. The F4F-4 carried less ammo per gun, so it had more punch, but for a shorter time in combat. Bill

herwin -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 1:28:00 AM)
In reality, the F4F3 was a better aircraft, but it took up 50% more deck area, so the carriers couldn't operate as many.

ctangus -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 1:35:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. IIRC they also didn't like the slower speed & apparent lowered maneuverability. Though admittedly my memory's a little fuzzy.

Feinder -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 6:50:46 AM)
I use F-4 on my CVs, since the range on your DBs is only 4 anyway. I use the F-3s in the USMC squadrons, so they can escort something out to range 5 if necessary. -F-

rtrapasso -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 5:23:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. IIRC they also didn't like the slower speed & apparent lowered maneuverability. Though admittedly my memory's a little fuzzy. Yeah - according to Lundstrom, the USN carrier pilots hated the F4F4 - they felt it handled like a fully loaded torpedo bomber, they didn't like the lowered ammo, etc. Notably - the US dropped the 6 mg armament when they went to the next improvement. The 6 x .50 cal mgs had been put in at the insistence of the Brits (for an order they placed), and the US wanted to standardize production so everything got 6 x .50 cal - for a while.

Miller -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 5:27:53 PM)
The Hellcat replacement, the F8F Bearcat went back to 4 guns. Although I don't know if this was to save weight or because the USN felt 4 was enough........

herwin -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 5:35:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miller The Hellcat replacement, the F8F Bearcat went back to 4 guns. Although I don't know if this was to save weight or because the USN felt 4 was enough........ The Bearcat was designed as an interceptor with the minimum weight necessary to do the job while mounting the maximum power engine available.

niceguy2005 -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/1/2007 11:50:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. IIRC they also didn't like the slower speed & apparent lowered maneuverability. Though admittedly my memory's a little fuzzy. Yeah - according to Lundstrom, the USN carrier pilots hated the F4F4 - they felt it handled like a fully loaded torpedo bomber, they didn't like the lowered ammo, etc. Notably - the US dropped the 6 mg armament when they went to the next improvement. The 6 x .50 cal mgs had been put in at the insistence of the Brits (for an order they placed), and the US wanted to standardize production so everything got 6 x .50 cal - for a while. Very interesting thread. Curious though, isn't it, that now we sing the praises of the Wildcat for having armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, when, according to the reports of pilots, this seemed to count less with them than did the maneuverability.

Big B -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/3/2007 8:17:16 PM)
Well, The best known critic of the F4F-4 was John Thach (after his experiences at Midway). On the other hand Lt Cmdr Flately (XO of VF42, who fought the Coral Sea battle) thought the aircraft workable. Both Flately and Thach together worked out F4F tactics after Midway and Coral Sea (according to Lundstrom). Flately disagreed with Thach over the wildcats capabilities and liabilities v the Zero, and Flately apearantly won Thach over to the POV that what ever the F4F-4 gave away in performance to the F4F-3 - it really wasn't enough to make a real difference in combat. Both agreed that the worst point of the F4F-4 was the 6x guns with 270 rds pr gun of the F4F-4, compared to the 4x guns with 450 rds pr gun of the F4F-3 (not for the added weight - but for firing time allowed). It appears at Midway, not a few F4F's were out of ammo too early - this appears to be the major source of anxiety between the two models (again according to Lundstrom). On the credit side of the F4F-4, it could carry drop tanks and therefore extend range, Pilots like Flately regarded range as the primary handicap of the F4F-3. The remark that the F4F-4 "was a dog" is always taken out of context - it was made in reference to the F4F-4 with two wing tanks (Lundstrom 1st Team, page 443). So to summarize, the F4F-4 did have a bit lower performance than the F4F-3, but not enough to make a difference in relation to combat with the Zero; the F4F-4 had greater firepower - but less trigger time (not a universally accepted virtue); and the provision for drop tanks provided a solution to the F4F's limited range problem(read - limited fuel, which translates into higher cruise speed, which translates into entering combat at high speed...THE biggest problem pilots identified after combat with the Zero - starting combat flying too slow); and folding wings allowed a major increase in the numbers available on board a carrier. The Wildcat the pilots really wanted was the FM-2, with 4 guns and more ammo, provision for drop tanks (more fuel), folding wings, and most importantly - more horsepower which made maneuvering with the Zero a whole new ball game. test flights with captured A6M5's showed the FM-2 to more than hold it's own in climbing AND turning (besides the usual advantages of high speed roll and controllability, etc)... but it didn't arrive at the fleet until 1943. quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. IIRC they also didn't like the slower speed & apparent lowered maneuverability. Though admittedly my memory's a little fuzzy. Yeah - according to Lundstrom, the USN carrier pilots hated the F4F4 - they felt it handled like a fully loaded torpedo bomber, they didn't like the lowered ammo, etc. Notably - the US dropped the 6 mg armament when they went to the next improvement. The 6 x .50 cal mgs had been put in at the insistence of the Brits (for an order they placed), and the US wanted to standardize production so everything got 6 x .50 cal - for a while. Very interesting thread. Curious though, isn't it, that now we sing the praises of the Wildcat for having armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, when, according to the reports of pilots, this seemed to count less with them than did the maneuverability.

anarchyintheuk -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 12:31:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: ctangus quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Reading sources like Lundstrom bears out the fact that USN pilots were addament about the loss of ammo. IIRC they also didn't like the slower speed & apparent lowered maneuverability. Though admittedly my memory's a little fuzzy. Yeah - according to Lundstrom, the USN carrier pilots hated the F4F4 - they felt it handled like a fully loaded torpedo bomber, they didn't like the lowered ammo, etc. Notably - the US dropped the 6 mg armament when they went to the next improvement. The 6 x .50 cal mgs had been put in at the insistence of the Brits (for an order they placed), and the US wanted to standardize production so everything got 6 x .50 cal - for a while. Very interesting thread. Curious though, isn't it, that now we sing the praises of the Wildcat for having armor and self-sealing fuel tanks, when, according to the reports of pilots, this seemed to count less with them than did the maneuverability. True. But, most of the pilots holding a recently changed opinion on the armor v. maneuverability debate were the ones making a high-speed controlled flight into the ocean while on fire. Edited for clarity.

niceguy2005 -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 1:47:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Well, The best known critic of the F4F-4 was John Thach (after his experiences at Midway). On the other hand Lt Cmdr Flately (XO of VF42, who fought the Coral Sea battle) thought the aircraft workable. Both Flately and Thach together worked out F4F tactics after Midway and Coral Sea (according to Lundstrom). Flately disagreed with Thach over the wildcats capabilities and liabilities v the Zero, and Flately apearantly won Thach over to the POV that what ever the F4F-4 gave away in performance to the F4F-3 - it really wasn't enough to make a real difference in combat. Both agreed that the worst point of the F4F-4 was the 6x guns with 270 rds pr gun of the F4F-4, compared to the 4x guns with 450 rds pr gun of the F4F-3 (not for the added weight - but for firing time allowed). It appears at Midway, not a few F4F's were out of ammo too early - this appears to be the major source of anxiety between the two models (again according to Lundstrom). On the credit side of the F4F-4, it could carry drop tanks and therefore extend range, Pilots like Flately regarded range as the primary handicap of the F4F-3. The remark that the F4F-4 "was a dog" is always taken out of context - it was made in reference to the F4F-4 with two wing tanks (Lundstrom 1st Team, page 443). So to summarize, the F4F-4 did have a bit lower performance than the F4F-3, but not enough to make a difference in relation to combat with the Zero; the F4F-4 had greater firepower - but less trigger time (not a universally accepted virtue); and the provision for drop tanks provided a solution to the F4F's limited range problem(read - limited fuel, which translates into higher cruise speed, which translates into entering combat at high speed...THE biggest problem pilots identified after combat with the Zero - starting combat flying too slow); and folding wings allowed a major increase in the numbers available on board a carrier. The Wildcat the pilots really wanted was the FM-2, with 4 guns and more ammo, provision for drop tanks (more fuel), folding wings, and most importantly - more horsepower which made maneuvering with the Zero a whole new ball game. test flights with captured A6M5's showed the FM-2 to more than hold it's own in climbing AND turning (besides the usual advantages of high speed roll and controllability, etc)... but it didn't arrive at the fleet until 1943. Thanks Big B for the information. That makes sense; sure there were performance differences but they were largely outweighed by defensive enhancements. I did not however, realize that there was any significant difference from the FM-2 and the F4F-4. I had always thought of the FM-2 as an F4F-4 made at a different factory. I'm sure your right, but I'll have to go read up on it.

rtrapasso -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 1:50:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 quote: ORIGINAL: Big B Well, The best known critic of the F4F-4 was John Thach (after his experiences at Midway). On the other hand Lt Cmdr Flately (XO of VF42, who fought the Coral Sea battle) thought the aircraft workable. Both Flately and Thach together worked out F4F tactics after Midway and Coral Sea (according to Lundstrom). Flately disagreed with Thach over the wildcats capabilities and liabilities v the Zero, and Flately apearantly won Thach over to the POV that what ever the F4F-4 gave away in performance to the F4F-3 - it really wasn't enough to make a real difference in combat. Both agreed that the worst point of the F4F-4 was the 6x guns with 270 rds pr gun of the F4F-4, compared to the 4x guns with 450 rds pr gun of the F4F-3 (not for the added weight - but for firing time allowed). It appears at Midway, not a few F4F's were out of ammo too early - this appears to be the major source of anxiety between the two models (again according to Lundstrom). On the credit side of the F4F-4, it could carry drop tanks and therefore extend range, Pilots like Flately regarded range as the primary handicap of the F4F-3. The remark that the F4F-4 "was a dog" is always taken out of context - it was made in reference to the F4F-4 with two wing tanks (Lundstrom 1st Team, page 443). So to summarize, the F4F-4 did have a bit lower performance than the F4F-3, but not enough to make a difference in relation to combat with the Zero; the F4F-4 had greater firepower - but less trigger time (not a universally accepted virtue); and the provision for drop tanks provided a solution to the F4F's limited range problem(read - limited fuel, which translates into higher cruise speed, which translates into entering combat at high speed...THE biggest problem pilots identified after combat with the Zero - starting combat flying too slow); and folding wings allowed a major increase in the numbers available on board a carrier. The Wildcat the pilots really wanted was the FM-2, with 4 guns and more ammo, provision for drop tanks (more fuel), folding wings, and most importantly - more horsepower which made maneuvering with the Zero a whole new ball game. test flights with captured A6M5's showed the FM-2 to more than hold it's own in climbing AND turning (besides the usual advantages of high speed roll and controllability, etc)... but it didn't arrive at the fleet until 1943. Thanks Big B for the information. That makes sense; sure there were performance differences but they were largely outweighed by defensive enhancements. I did not however, realize that there was any significant difference from the FM-2 and the F4F-4. I had always thought of the FM-2 as an F4F-4 made at a different factory. I'm sure your right, but I'll have to go read up on it. FM-2 was made at a GM factory, iirc... but there were differences as noted above ... the FM-2 in the game has 4 guns, not 6.

wdolson -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 5:00:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 Thanks Big B for the information. That makes sense; sure there were performance differences but they were largely outweighed by defensive enhancements. I did not however, realize that there was any significant difference from the FM-2 and the F4F-4. I had always thought of the FM-2 as an F4F-4 made at a different factory. I'm sure your right, but I'll have to go read up on it. The FM-1 was essentially identical to the F4F-4. The FM-2 was the improvement on the design. It's been referred to as the "hot rod" Wildcat. Bill

Big B -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 5:50:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wdolson quote: ORIGINAL: niceguy2005 Thanks Big B for the information. That makes sense; sure there were performance differences but they were largely outweighed by defensive enhancements. I did not however, realize that there was any significant difference from the FM-2 and the F4F-4. I had always thought of the FM-2 as an F4F-4 made at a different factory. I'm sure your right, but I'll have to go read up on it. The FM-1 was essentially identical to the F4F-4. The FM-2 was the improvement on the design. It's been referred to as the "hot rod" Wildcat. Bill You are correct WDO [;)], the aircraft Niceguy was thinking of was the GM made FM-1. The FM-2 was the "hot-rod" Wildcat. The one attribute from personal experience I think I can add to the discussion is a personal understanding of the "physics" of speed, acceleration, weight, torque, power band, and handling. I am NOT a fighter pilot like TheElf. But I did misspend my entire youth on racing. While most of the members of this forum where doing the right thing by going to college and/or military service, I spent my formative years street racing, drag racing at tracks, and road racing cars and motorcycles through the canyons on the SoCal racing scene (most of the 1970s). Consequently, I got a first hand education the hard way, on the effects of torque, low end vs high end horse power, handling through different speed ranges, acceleration in different speed ranges, turbochargers, and water injection(meaning pre-detonation gas injection) systems, effects of high octain fuels vs compression ratios, and HP power bands. The relevant correlation would be that they are all a matter of universal physics...practically applied. What I was able to learn from of all this is - that there is no "one type beats all under all circumstances" formulas. Everything is a matter of compromise and circumstance. Taking dollars out of your own pocket is a powerful stimulus to learn. [:)] I won't go into the costs - monetarily and physically (crashes). The other weird tie-in is that even in those days, because of my mil-history upbringing, I always compared different vehicles in terms of "this is like a Zero, this is like a P-40, etc" ...yeah - weird. B

marky -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (10/4/2007 8:44:03 AM)
i go with the F4F-4 Peace thru superior FIREPOWER!!! [sm=00000036.gif][sm=00000054.gif][sm=sterb020.gif][:D]

BlitzSS -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (1/30/2017 1:56:20 PM)
Big B hits the nail on the head with his references and data comparisons between the F4F-3 and 4 models, and kudos to everyone else, as this thread very much covers the aspects of the Wildcat. I just wanted to add that the FM-2 was a specific adaptation of the Wildcat for use on CVLs, as the newer fighters were too big and heavy to operate from the limited flight decks and speed of the Combustible Vulnerable Expendables. The FM-2 took all of advantages mentioned above: folding wings; strategically placed, gauged armor plates; self-sealing tanks; and paper-Mache drop wing tanks, for extended range, due to the listed additional weights. The need of having a capable yet somewhat nimble fighter leaned back towards the F4F-3s characteristics of having 4x.50s with 450 rounds each. Also, while it was an initial shock to adapt to the differences between the F4F-3 and 4 models, pilots soon learned to ease up on the trigger and still couldn�t dogfight with a Zero, so they found that bringing back a Wildcat full of holes was better than their counterparts disappearing forever. Strategically range meant everything in the Pacific.

wga8888 -> RE: F4F-3 or F4F-4 - which is best? (8/20/2017 8:49:27 PM)
Relative numbers of aircraft is a dominant factor is air combat. From the old Grigsby games (such as USAAF, War in the South Pacific, Guadalcanal, bomb Alley), the chances of a kill vs damage vs no result is a formula were firepower vs durability are variables. F4F-4 have both a higher firepower and durability rating. The old games had the combat formulas in the rulebook. Several random numbers in the numerator and denominator provided a variation of results.

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