New FOF scenario??? (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> New FOF scenario??? (10/3/2007 7:51:54 PM)

Hey, check out this article that's linked from the DrudgeReport! Looks like we might need to let FOF continue up to 2007 (and add some new weapons to the guns.txt file!):

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071003/ap_on_re_us/secessionist_movement_1



Erik Rutins -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/3/2007 8:36:52 PM)

Yeah, we here in Vermont seem to be a hotbed for all kinds of interesting thinking and in this case it certainly seems to make for strange bedfellows. Frankly, it's one of the things I like about the place, as long as folks are willing to accept differing opinions than their own. Overall, though most people up here are not in agreement with me politically, the discourse is a lot more mature and polite than in some other places I've been. If secession ever comes up though, I'll definitely be voting with the Union and I think the ghosts of the Vermont Brigade would be in agreement with me.

Regards,

- Erik



Missouri_Rebel -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/4/2007 3:00:35 AM)

Well if they upset the SPLC then they must be doing something right. Who made that child molester Morris Dees of the SPLC the moral authority anyways? Just a sleazy, self-appointed elitist crook lookin for a buck.

Mo Reb



Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/4/2007 8:59:25 AM)

The idea of secession is becoming more respectable and more fashionable worldwide, and it's interesting to see that it's tentatively starting to take root even in the USA, where it's been well out of fashion ever since the Civil War.

Yugoslavia split into multiple pieces, and now Kosovo wants to split off from Serbia; and most people in the world (except Serbs) seem to think it would be right to do so. Tibet wants to split off from China, and probably most people (except the Chinese government) think it would be right to do so.

There's talk of Scotland leaving the United Kingdom; and I suspect the British government would let it happen, if the Scots voted for it.

Once upon a time, people ganged together in large countries because they had more muscle. These days, that kind of muscle isn't seen as so important, and people in small countries seem quite happy. So more and more people worldwide want to break away from large countries and do their own thing. I see nothing wrong with it myself. But I don't see it happening in the USA in the near future.



Bombsight -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/6/2007 9:51:54 PM)

Secession seems fashionable after 50 years of seemingly peaceful co-existence and the accessibility to a world authority to voice complaints. This is reminiscent of the circa-1928 view of the world. Then empire building dictators took advantage the weaknesses that are inherent to the multiplicity of independent states. So, is this a case of history repeating itself or mankind not paying attention to painful lessons learned & foregotten?



Bombsight -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/6/2007 9:54:55 PM)

oops



Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/6/2007 11:04:59 PM)

On the one hand, there are certainly some lessons to be learned from history. On the other hand, history never quite repeats itself.

The USA has been Top Nation now for decades. I wonder what benefit the people of the USA have really derived from this. It seems to me that the people of, say, Denmark (population 5 million) have been more or less as happy.

Whenever the USA has tried to assert itself in the world, and wield its awesome powers, things don't seem to have turned out very well. I suppose the people of Denmark feel relatively complacent by comparison.



Gil R. -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/7/2007 2:13:15 AM)

Well, of course, at the risk of having this become a political discussion, one might argue that far more people have become happier (to use your standard) than have become unhappier due to U.S. actions. Just start with the former Soviet Bloc countries and then work your way around the world. And that's not even including the contrafactuals, i.e. countries that would have ended up under dictators if not for U.S. actions and influence.




Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/7/2007 10:20:52 AM)

Hello, Gil. I guess that to the majority of people in the world these days (born after the Second World War), the influence of the USA doesn't seem as obviously benign as it does to you. But I'm not anti-American, and I won't contest your point.

To the extent that muscle is still valuable in the world (and indeed it can be, at times), of course the USA has more of it than anyone else, and therefore has more to lose by fragmenting than any other country.

Whereas European countries are not major powers these days, and separatists in these countries may well think they have little to lose. I don't imagine the Kosovans think they have anything to lose by separating from Serbia.

Even separatists in, say, Vermont, may wonder exactly what terrible things would happen to them if they were no longer part of the USA. The fact that separation would weaken American influence in the world probably concerns them less than it concerns you.



Jonathan Palfrey -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/7/2007 11:09:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whit
Then empire building dictators took advantage the weaknesses that are inherent to the multiplicity of independent states.


It's true that people should be asking themselves, "What do we do when the next Hitler comes along?"

A couple of answers are:

1. Huddle together in large, powerful countries ready to meet such a threat.

2. Rely on the USA to bail us out.

I feel that neither of these is fully satisfactory; I wish the world would come up with some better solution, but so far it doesn't seem to have done.

I point out that the existence of large, powerful countries gives any new Hitler immediate access to serious power. What, for instance, if the new Hitler arises in the USA? It seems far-fetched, but it's not impossible.

If the world were fully broken up into small countries, the initial threat posed by any new Hitler would be correspondingly small.



Twotribes -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/7/2007 1:24:51 PM)

Succession can only occur in the US if the US Congress allows it. That was settled by the Civil War and the US Supreme Court afterwards. A State can not leave the Union without the consent of a majority of the other States.



Erik Rutins -> RE: New FOF scenario??? (10/7/2007 1:32:11 PM)

Since we're veering into more of a current politics discussion, I'm going to lock this up. Probably should have done so to begin with, but the secession issue seemed on-topic.



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