How do Combat Mission players like SP:WaW? (Full Version)

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PacifistButLikeWarGames -> How do Combat Mission players like SP:WaW? (9/11/2000 5:23:00 PM)

does it feel strange after using simultaneous orders?



Fabs -> (9/11/2000 6:30:00 PM)

I have only started playing CM and I have to say that I find it hard to switch from SPWAW to CM. Graphically I prefer SPWAW, which represents an advanced state for two dimensional representation, where CM's 3D graphics are still very raw and "unreal" in many ways. Surely, this can only improve, although the challenge when trying to create the impression of "being there" is far greater to achieve good visual results. Potentially, it should eventually surpass the SPWAW bi-dimensional model, but I do not think that it does that in its present form. I dislike the "three men to a squad, one man to a team" approach, and the squares grid. All those colored lines are also off-putting, especially at the lower zoom levels! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img] The interface feels a lot like the "Close Combat" one, but the "stop-go" approach works better. The changing view is the hardest thing to get used to. I often get lost foating in the space around the map. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/confused.gif[/img] The fact that it limits itself to North-West Europe is a major drawback. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] I also failed miserably to get my first home-made scenario to work, and can't work out why (having lost the instructions book does not help!). [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/redface.gif[/img] Having said all this, I feel that the two games arer different enough to warrant sticking to it for a while. If I can get used to it, it will satisfy a different aspect of my wargaming appetite. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] My verdict is that the CM team has a lot of work to do to deliver the promise of their system. If they do that, it will be an excellent vehicle for a more intimate wargaming experience, at Company - Platoon commander level. ------------------ Fabs [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited September 11, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Fabs (edited September 11, 2000).]



Rhone -> (9/12/2000 1:02:00 AM)

No flames, you have a right to your opinion and nobody should bash you for being wrongly opinionated. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But, I downloaded the demo and removed it from my hard-drive about 5 minutes after I threw up. You see, I lost track of where the hell my troops were on the map and that rotating camera thing got me a little too dizzy...neat graphics though, except for the infantry.



Scipio Africanus -> (9/12/2000 1:43:00 AM)

I actually find the graphics to be better in SPWAW, especially in ver 4.0. CM is 3D- that's cool- what would be infinitely cooler is if it didn't have those ridiculous lines going hither and thither. Lack of anything resembling the state of the art in the 3D world is a real bummer- the horizon looks very bad in many cases; lack of color attenuation at distance and an apparent absence of palette matching gives CM a "cartoony" look- many tanks look like they're being projected onto the background rahter than actually existing in it -the graphics most remind me of the original Duke Nuke 'em, but not of anything good in the flight sim/ racing/ 3D war genres in the past 4 years. Also not a flame, but hey, just because you can rotate around your sherman, it doesn't mean the graphics are that good (I know several people who have done better texture work than is present in CM when upgrading games for free). Cheers, ------------------ Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus



Drake -> (9/12/2000 1:52:00 AM)

To each his own. I would take SP: WAW any day over CM. Played CM at a freinds house and did not like it much. As For internet play, Would have like version 4 if that is all they did. Nothing like playing someone online.



Fuerte -> (9/12/2000 2:09:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Rhone: No flames, you have a right to your opinion and nobody should bash you for being wrongly opinionated. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] But, I downloaded the demo and removed it from my hard-drive about 5 minutes after I threw up. You see, I lost track of where the hell my troops were on the map and that rotating camera thing got me a little too dizzy...neat graphics though, except for the infantry.
Rhone, it is amazing, but I could have said exactly all of what you said. The demo is bad... perhaps because there are so many buildings. A simple forest and field scenario with a little artillery support would have been much better. The artillery effect is awesome. But, after trying the full game, which my friend bought, I was immediately converted... to the dark side in this newsgroup I guess.



Paul Vebber -> (9/12/2000 2:20:00 AM)

Everbody is entitled to an opinion [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Thanks for keeping this thread flame-free!! I personally own and play CM and like it a lot for what its good at. But its really an apples and oranges thing - like arguing whether playing (insert your favorite miniatures rules) is better than playing (insert favorite board game). To me, CM is an extention of miniatures gaming into the computer environment, while SP:WAW is an extension of board gaming. Having been a fan of both miniatures style plpay and ASL, I find the two games satisfy quite different gaming itches. Just as miniatures gamers typically are looking for a fundamentally different gaming experience than board gamers, both genre's can happily coexist in cyberspace as they have in the "real world" - each with its adherants! Not "better" but in the eyes of the beholder...more "different". Just a clarification of one thing - "plotted simove" has been around for quite a while and had one of its first successes in Steel Panthers predecessor Panzer Strike and Typhoon of Steel...Back to the future [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited September 11, 2000).]



Tombstone -> (9/12/2000 2:23:00 AM)

I really think they are both fantastic games. CM models smaller unit actions really well. SPWAW is more for fine control, and larger battles. CM does NOT have very good 3d graphics, but that doesn't really bother me. They are enough to immerse me quite completely in the game. It requires a more subtle approach to terrain. Its much more literal than SPWAW (which has it's plusses and minuses). In CM you actually get to use those little depressions in that are abstracted in SPWAW's clear hexes. Machine guns are modelled in CM as to have an effect similar to what they say machine guns are really like. It's a pain to play CM sometimes though.. and its never a pain to play SPWAW... I dunno. I play both, and believe in both. Tomo



orc4hire -> (9/12/2000 2:39:00 AM)

I tried the CM demo and didn't really care for it. Interesting concept, but using the interface is just too much work for me.



Fuerte -> (9/12/2000 2:48:00 AM)

Paul, you are absolutely right. These two games are so different, even if they simulate almost the same thing, that they can coexist happily. I like them both, for sure. Of the simultaneuous plotting of turns: I had RoboSport in the old good Amiga days. It was a lot of fun! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]



Don -> (9/12/2000 2:58:00 AM)

I too tried the CM demo, played the various missions and came right back to SPWaW. I haven't touched the demo again, and played SPWaW about 1000 times. Fuerte could be right in that the CM game is better than the demo, but I'm not paying the $45 to find out when I have a fantastic free game right here. CM takes some getting used to, and I think alot of people aren't going to pay for it unless they could try the game first. I also think that the graphics in SPWaW are much better than CM. While it was nice seeing "the lay of the land", there was something about the 3D aspect that just didn't seem right. I think it could turn out to be a fantastic game in future editions!



nikb -> (9/12/2000 3:02:00 AM)

Well, I play both and I enjoy both. Its a bit like league and union - similar type of games but with so many differences (that comparison will only make sense to those of us in the Colonies ie New Zealand, Australia and the mother country!). I must admit I fall back to SPAW though. That, however, is probably due to the dislike of a real time engine. Actually, I think it is worse than a real time engine because after you choose your moves you are powerless to do anything...just watch. SPAW on the other hand gives me more hands on tatical choices and in the long run, is more of a challenge. And that is why I play it. And yes, I too was nearly put off by the CM demo. However, like a good chunk of war games out there I purchased it. Well worth the dollars (even for those of us who have a looser of a $NZ). Anyway, both are great (yes, great games)and both will stay on the hard drive. The only similarities being is that they are war games representing the same period. Not much good trying to compare them to each other. I say play them both...and enjoy. Cheers Nik



Antonius -> (9/12/2000 4:04:00 AM)

Have both, play both, enjoy both ! I totally agree with all above posts saying that they are totally different games and give very different kinds of pleasure. Some may disagree with me, but I believe CMBO is much more about micro-management than SPWAW and thus indeed very well suited for small battles. 60 units is a small SPWAW battle but a HUGE and CMBO one Playing CMBO is long periods of studying the map, planning, checking followed by long periods of watching the video (what happened ? did I miss something ? etc). SPWAW gives (me) a much higher sense of involvement because the action is continuous (except some pausing to plan when I decide to do so, not when the program tells me to do so) and the fighting can grow very intensive and fast when playing with all messages off. CMBO is like playing the Allies in Talosoft's Bombing the Reich and SPWAW like playing the Germans.



Epicurius -> (9/12/2000 4:58:00 AM)

I like SPWAW the best.....all are right in this thread....... But ain't those tracers cool going over head in a heated fire fight in CM [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] That is probably the coolest thing.



waynef -> (9/12/2000 5:09:00 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paul Vebber: I personally own and play CM and like it a lot for what its good at. But its really an apples and oranges thing - like arguing whether playing (insert your favorite miniatures rules) is better than playing (insert favorite board game). I agree 100%. I like CM for a different reason. My son likes CM and now is interested in SPW@W. Whatever it takes to bring gamers to our hobby.



U235 -> (9/12/2000 5:09:00 AM)

I just bought CM, and I do like it, but all the quick movement on the screen makes me sick (phyically [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] ). I think that in order to play for any lenth of time I will need to take Dramamine. I can't play first person shooters for the same reason. Maybe I'm getting old...keep making games like SP!



Ed Cogburn -> (9/12/2000 5:58:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Don: While it was nice seeing "the lay of the land",
This is totally off-topic but it reminds me of something I've always wished SP I/III/WaW had. I'd like to be able to press a button then click on a hex and have the screen highlight all hexes that are visible to that hex. It would make figuring out where to position your tanks on that hill, for example, much easier. Note that this works "both ways" so to speak. You could click on an enemy occupied hex and see what is visible from that hex. The game's spotting rules will result in things being visible to the hex your unit is in, but still not visible to your unit, so its not "foolproof" in that sense, and it shouldn't be. I'm not looking for an "advantage", just a tool to make LOS issues easier to deal with on a 2D map.



Tombstone -> (9/12/2000 6:08:00 AM)

And what I'd like is the levels of identifacation on units in CM that if SPWAW had would be AWESOME. No more, "this high-caliber round for that tank, this short-barreled gun for that armored car, and the HMG for the half-track." That kind of stuff, although I'm certainly guilty of doing it (I think I'm actually quite good at in fact) is very unrealistic...and it feels that way when I do it. Tomo



Von Rom -> (9/12/2000 6:37:00 AM)

As mentioned previously, both Combat Mission and SPWAW are two completely different games. Personally, I tried the Combat Mission demo, and I was struck by how realistic it felt and sounded. The American arty bombardment is awesome to behold. However, I have a tendency to suffer from motion sickness, and so after 30 minutes of camera rotation mania, I had to leave the game. So I will not be buying it for that resaon. But I can understand why gamers do enjoy it. Combat Mission models small combat engagements: a few tanks and infantry. SPWAW can be used to play either small battles or large ones in 2D. There is also a certain role-playing element in the game when you play a campaign and nurture your starting forces. I can play SPWAW all day and it will not make me ill. But that is my preference. Both games are excellent - but they are different - many people enjoy one or the other, or both. I think that is fantastic. It's a big world - and there is room for all types of games and gamers... ------------------ A King Tiger can give you a definite edge...



Wild Bill -> (9/12/2000 9:17:00 AM)

Feurte, my apologies. I was trying to copy out a portion of your first post to use in mine and accidentally deleted it. I did not mean to do that. I am sorry. My eyes and skills I guess ain't what they used to be. Please forgive this error. You know how much I enjoy both games since you are involved in both. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Paul Vebber -> (9/12/2000 9:24:00 AM)

To copy from someones post - just hold the left mouse button down and drag across the text, highlighting it. Then right click on the highlighted text and hit copy. If you add [ QUOTE] Without the space before the section and [/QUOTE ] without the space at the end you will get an 'indented quote' IE
quote:

You know how much I enjoy both games since you are involved in both. Wild Bill



Polrbear -> (9/12/2000 10:44:00 AM)

I play both and feel that there is a place for both in a gamers arsenal. My only concern is the potential financial requirement to keep up with the CM expansions as compared to the quality, depth, flexibilty, and cost [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] of SPWAW.



BomBeer -> (9/12/2000 2:08:00 PM)

I like CM very much. I look forward to the CM 2 as much as I look forward to SP Modern Warfare or War in the Pacific. Last night I played one battle of SPWaW and one of CM. There both fun in there own ways. BomBeer



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