RE: Ambush over Changsha

RE: Ambush over Changsha (Full Version)

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Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 2:08:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil I overlooked the situation again. If you want to prevent an autovictory, you must do something in Noumea, imho. Let me explain: In your last intel screen you had 19600:6300 victory points. You will lose Manila before 1943, that's 1200 Points less for you. Even if Karachi holds, your troops in Burma and Manila will give him at least 5000 points, so we are at 25000:5100. Ok, you have to earn some 1200 points, this is not too much. But if Karachi falls, your gap becomes too big, I'm afraid. Noumea is now at 600 VP. If he takes it (Japan received a lot of SNLF and NavGd units), we are at 25000:4500. This is a big gap, even if Karachi holds. Should it fall - no way to prevent an autovictory. On the other hand, if you defend the place and max it out to 2100 VP, you are almost save. Even if you lose Karachi it should be possible to earn enough points for destroyed ships and aircraft. I think, this should really be your priority now. Try to release a brigade from NZ and send 100 fighters, some base forces and engineers. And a fleet, of course. If you really don't have the troops, you should even consider to strip one of your brand new Marshall islands. mmm...You've made up my mind. I'll try to move some eng units (base forces and seabees) plus maybe a RCT to Noumea...it will take some time however...let's see what i can master...In Oz there are enough fighters to be moved there...however Oz cannot be depleted that much...so i must stay on balance. Thanks mate, good point[;)]

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 2:13:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hades1001 I just told you if I was the IJ player, what would I do. The Indian Campaign would not last long, and in 2 or 3 months, evil trollelite can gather all of his troops, around 8000-10000 AVs supported by KB and the whole Combined fleet. The best point to break through your defense is wake or some other isolated island. Cut off your supply line, seige all your frontline bases. Starving them to death and you can do nothing. You will loss thousands of US troops and may not able to recover until later 1943 You really think that Karachi will last for only 2/3 more months? I hope not...i'm starting to believe that Karachi can hold its ground...maybe with a bit of luck...but i see a chance. However the Marshalls aren't a trip in the park for him...even if he brings in everything he has. He cannot gain anymore the air superiority without risking his whole KB...and the KB has 3 platforms (CV Kaga and 2 CVEs) out of action for some more time. I have 4 mutual supporting bases south of Kwalajein and Eniwetok is really well reinforced...for sue if he brings 8 divisions in one single atoll he can take it, but i won't be so sure... Anyway, there's not much i can do right now. I'm reinforcing every base i have gained...and i won't overextend...be sure of that. [;)]

Hortlund -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 4:24:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hades1001 I just told you if I was the IJ player, what would I do. The Indian Campaign would not last long, and in 2 or 3 months, evil trollelite can gather all of his troops, around 8000-10000 AVs supported by KB and the whole Combined fleet. The best point to break through your defense is wake or some other isolated island. Cut off your supply line, seige all your frontline bases. Starving them to death and you can do nothing. You will loss thousands of US troops and may not able to recover until later 1943 Pure fantasy. After India, he needs to mop up the NEI and Manilla. After that, his troops will need weeks of rest and his ships will need some serious dock time. Without any combat damage, having your ships at sea for several months will lead to sys-damage above 10. The danger is to northern Australia, but it seems our General has fortified it well. "starve to death" LOL... have you actually played this game?

Hortlund -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 4:24:55 PM)
General, have you used your DMs at Pearl to mine your frontline bases in the pacific?

castor troy -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 4:26:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner quote: ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil I overlooked the situation again. If you want to prevent an autovictory, you must do something in Noumea, imho. Let me explain: In your last intel screen you had 19600:6300 victory points. You will lose Manila before 1943, that's 1200 Points less for you. Even if Karachi holds, your troops in Burma and Manila will give him at least 5000 points, so we are at 25000:5100. Ok, you have to earn some 1200 points, this is not too much. But if Karachi falls, your gap becomes too big, I'm afraid. Noumea is now at 600 VP. If he takes it (Japan received a lot of SNLF and NavGd units), we are at 25000:4500. This is a big gap, even if Karachi holds. Should it fall - no way to prevent an autovictory. On the other hand, if you defend the place and max it out to 2100 VP, you are almost save. Even if you lose Karachi it should be possible to earn enough points for destroyed ships and aircraft. I think, this should really be your priority now. Try to release a brigade from NZ and send 100 fighters, some base forces and engineers. And a fleet, of course. If you really don't have the troops, you should even consider to strip one of your brand new Marshall islands. mmm...You've made up my mind. I'll try to move some eng units (base forces and seabees) plus maybe a RCT to Noumea...it will take some time however...let's see what i can master...In Oz there are enough fighters to be moved there...however Oz cannot be depleted that much...so i must stay on balance. Thanks mate, good point[;)] be aware that Noumea is one of the biggest death traps in the game. You can´t defend all of New Caledonia and a smart Japanese player often waits until Noumea is well garrisoned, then he lands at La Foa or Koumac and then marches to Noumea.

hades1001 -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 4:47:02 PM)
quote: Pure fantasy. After India, he needs to mop up the NEI and Manilla. After that, his troops will need weeks of rest and his ships will need some serious dock time. Without any combat damage, having your ships at sea for several months will lead to sys-damage above 10. The danger is to northern Australia, but it seems our General has fortified it well. "starve to death" LOL... have you actually played this game? Check out my AAR and you will see what IJ can do Something you just can't imagine, but could happen[8D] PS, sys over 10 is no big deal. Anyway, if GH can hold all Karachi and the central pacific bases, trollelite just failed to organize the war the right way. And the fall of Japan won't be far away.

hades1001 -> RE: Final days of Karachi...the doom is near (1/29/2008 4:59:00 PM)
I just checked out the AVs GH got in Karachi, it is over 2,500, impressive. Only if trollelite can gether over 10,000 AVs in Karachi, which is almost impossible in CHS. I'm sure trollelite is having big headache right now but he still have a chance to get out of this. I preferred to overestimate my opponent so you can make better plans. Some dangers you have to just take into consideration, it's better than be surprised, right?

Mistmatz -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 5:08:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy ... be aware that Noumea is one of the biggest death traps in the game. You can´t defend all of New Caledonia and a smart Japanese player often waits until Noumea is well garrisoned, then he lands at La Foa or Koumac and then marches to Noumea. Same is true for Suva, but this is even further away for the empire. So unless the Marshalls are taken back by the japanese in this game, such an action is very unlikely. In particular not unless trollelite is going for the 4-1 autovictory, which he said he isn't after.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 11:09:09 PM)
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/15/42 Japanese bombers arrive in hordes in China and at Karachi. At Karachi he targeted the whole res./HI centers...quite strange indeed because those facilities would have been stopped just entering in the base hex...[&:] However Karachi is down to 289,000 supplies...and today we saw what Japan can master in india in terms of bombers....something like 500! Karachi has still 2500 AVs, forts near level 7.... In China it's the same...he's moving back from Changsha...now he's massing 20 units north of it, in order to advance and cross the river, so to cut the supply line to Chunking and force me to do stupid things....i'm retreating from Shangai/Nanchang area...let's see if i can give him some troubles here... In the Marshalls i've ordered to an RCT to move to Wake. Now Every base has at least 500 AVs and forts are building fast. I'm confident that my defences in this area can hold. Bad weather prevented any raid from Eniwatok to Ponape today.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3 Japanese aircraft Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 36 Ki-21-II Sally x 129 Ki-49 Helen x 113 Ki-46-II Dinah x 10 Japanese aircraft losses Ki-21-II Sally: 3 damaged Ki-49 Helen: 7 damaged Heavy Industry hits 66 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3 Japanese aircraft G3M Nell x 73 G4M1 Betty x 157 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 3 Japanese aircraft losses G3M Nell: 1 destroyed, 9 damaged G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 7 damaged Resources hits 28 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37 Japanese aircraft D3A2 Val x 131[X(] Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 48 Ki-30 Ann x 48[X(] Ki-32 Mary x 54[X(] Ki-48-I Lily x 143[X(] Japanese aircraft losses Ki-48-I Lily: 1 damaged Allied ground losses: 154 casualties reported Guns lost 3 Airbase hits 31 Airbase supply hits 25 Runway hits 220 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37 Japanese aircraft G3M Nell x 25 G4M1 Betty x 44 Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 12 Ki-21-II Sally x 26 Ki-49 Helen x 99 Ki-15 Babs x 13 Japanese aircraft losses G3M Nell: 1 damaged G4M1 Betty: 1 damaged Ki-49 Helen: 1 damaged Allied ground losses: 78 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Airbase hits 12 Airbase supply hits 4 Runway hits 100 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Kwajalein , at 81,84 Usual raid over Kwalajein....[:)] Allied aircraft Beaufort I x 27 P-40B Tomahawk x 15 B-18A Bolo x 12 B-25C Mitchell x 43 B-26B Marauder x 53 Allied aircraft losses Beaufort I: 1 damaged B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged B-26B Marauder: 1 damaged Japanese ground losses: 20 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Airbase hits 1 Airbase supply hits 1 Runway hits 12 Port supply hits 1 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at Hankow Allied Bombardment attack Attacking force 54057 troops, 267 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1789 Defending force 23039 troops, 62 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 309 Allied ground losses: 34 casualties reported Guns lost 3 mmmmm...here he has moved back many units...but the hex is urban and sure the forts are high...i'd be tempted but i restrain myself...[:(] [image]local://upfiles/4162/063E4F97935049FF8B93D9DAC63D2751.jpg[/image]

Feinder -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 11:30:56 PM)
The only thing I can think of for bombing Karachi... Does he get strat points for bombing India? I think I tried it already, I don't think I got anythign for my trouble. I do know you score points for bombing Oz (watch that by the way). But I'm not sure about India. -F-

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/29/2008 11:57:32 PM)
He's not scoring any strategical point (see screenshot below)...so i do not understand it yet...strange indeed[&:] [image]local://upfiles/4162/6D26E7CB2FC141838D67871DC8327EF0.jpg[/image]

String -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 12:15:53 AM)
Have you turned off your repairs?

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 12:37:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: String Have you turned off your repairs? Obviously yes, thanks[;)]

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 12:39:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund General, have you used your DMs at Pearl to mine your frontline bases in the pacific? I've mined Eniwetok but not the other bases...my DM do not have sufficient endurance to mine the Marshalls from PH...i'm waiting for the MLEs ordered few months ago...they should be coming soon...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 12:42:35 AM)
I've double checked the Naval search groups at Wake, Johston and Midway...6 catalinas groups and 2 hudons groups...hope these guys will spot any incoming KB raid in the channell between PH and Eniwetok...my main concern is that he can try to raid here...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 8:27:58 AM)
Trollelite caught a bad cold and will rest some days. No turn untill the weekend guys...[:o]

castor troy -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 9:24:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feinder The only thing I can think of for bombing Karachi... Does he get strat points for bombing India? I think I tried it already, I don't think I got anythign for my trouble. I do know you score points for bombing Oz (watch that by the way). But I'm not sure about India. -F- no strategic points for the Japanese for bombing India...He gets for strategic bombing of Oz and US targets, but not for Chinese or targets in India.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 1:17:59 PM)
Anyway guys, the autovictory isn't an issue in this match (which has gone at a very slow pace in the last 2 weeks[:o]), so i should be focused only on a strategical point of view, regardless points and stuffs. Noumea and the whole Solomons won't be a primary theatre in this match. The allied early conquest of the Marshalls has shifted the whole strategical importance on CENTPAC. With Eniwetok in our hands and Truk so early menaced, Rabaul and everything south of it lose any importance, because it will be simply by.passed. PM will be built just because i want to cover the right flank of my next advance vector which will start from Darwin towards Ambonia and Northern New Guinea (so to say Wewak and those ducth bases). A small Australian Corp(2 AUS Bdes and 2 Companies) is already prepping for Ambonia at Darwin and the first surface fleet arrived at Darwin last week (2CLs and 8 DDs), along with 1 AR,1 AS, several MSWs and some 10 subs. But the main vector will be, for the moment, the centpac one. I think we'll be able to take Ponape sooner than Manila will fall, so our next defensive position will be quite better. By the end of April we'll have in line nearly 40 P-38Fs. These beauties will be very usefull in escorting our next raids against Truk. But the first step will be to get a good air superiority above Ponape. We'll use the Marine F4Fs, and some P-40s. I think i can master here an attrition battle. The plan remains the same: after that Ponape has been bombed to pieces, we'll land the 2USMC Division there, plus other supporting units with fast transports. Then, as soon as the base is in our hands, we'll use Dakotas from Eniwetok to bring in a base force, some AAs and the engeeners needed to build it up to level 4 AF. My fighter groups will be moved in asap and we'll start the attrition battle against his betties and zeros that will surely arrive from Truk. At the same time my unescorted B-17s will attack Truk AF from Eniwetok, so forcing him to keep a strong CAP there and so a less effective escort to his naval bombers. The KB is the key...but if it shows up, i'm quite confident that, having 4 CVs at hands and tons of LBAs, i'll be able to defend well my positions. Any tips?

Bogo Mil -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 3:46:11 PM)
You have a very big battlefleet. But you are low on CVs. If you want to be able to counter raids of the KB, you have to hide your few CVs until you know where the KB is - so they can not support any offensive operations of your BBs. Thus you should look for a theatre where you can use your battlefleet covered by land based fighters. I would use it to defend Noumea, but if you really don't care about autovictory, there are probably other options. Maybe you can bombard Kwajalein heavily? Your second advance vector from darwin is a very dangerous one, imho. There are no repair yards nearby, so demaged ships have to go a very long and predictable way to a save heaven. I would postpone any operations there until I could muster several strong ASW-groups to keep my retreat (and supply) lines open.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 4:31:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil You have a very big battlefleet. But you are low on CVs. If you want to be able to counter raids of the KB, you have to hide your few CVs until you know where the KB is - so they can not support any offensive operations of your BBs. Thus you should look for a theatre where you can use your battlefleet covered by land based fighters. I would use it to defend Noumea, but if you really don't care about autovictory, there are probably other options. Maybe you can bombard Kwajalein heavily? Your second advance vector from darwin is a very dangerous one, imho. There are no repair yards nearby, so demaged ships have to go a very long and predictable way to a save heaven. I would postpone any operations there until I could muster several strong ASW-groups to keep my retreat (and supply) lines open. My BBs, till mid summer, will be used in the CetPac (so to say against Truk and Ponape). I'm leaving 4 of them at PH with a good escort, in order to finish their upgrades. My 4CVs (the Saratoga will be docked at SF repairing her 50sys damage for some months), with their brand new AAA upgrades, will be moved to Maloelap. They will operate, in close contact with the surface battle fleet and under the umbrella of a strong LBA protection. The Darwin vector won't be started untill Ponape is taken and Truk is under siege. Plus i'll need some more big convoys to unload in Oz before thinking of a serious operation there. However the Darwin vector, at the moment, is thought only as a decoy. The Threat on Ambonia will force him to move some units to protect southern SRA...that will mean less units in the Mariannas....

witpqs -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 5:05:28 PM)
As a diversion Amboina makes sense, but weakening Northern Oz could prove to be a problem. A real offensive front out of Northern Oz really will require the kind of land strength you will have available in '43. You've got a good front in the Mariannas for holding, for attrition, and for offensive when you are ready. Meanwhile, you've got to keep him from succeeding in other areas, like Northern Oz, Karachi, and China - or make it hurt really bad for him!

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 6:27:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs As a diversion Amboina makes sense, but weakening Northern Oz could prove to be a problem. A real offensive front out of Northern Oz really will require the kind of land strength you will have available in '43. You've got a good front in the Mariannas for holding, for attrition, and for offensive when you are ready. Meanwhile, you've got to keep him from succeeding in other areas, like Northern Oz, Karachi, and China - or make it hurt really bad for him! My plan is to land at Ambonia (which by now is defended only by a tiny base force), destroy everything and occupy the base with a Bde and a base force. nothing more. This will let me transfer there kittihawks and beauforts and catalinas...i can give him some real headhaces in that area....he will be forced to react and take back Ambonia...that would be good for me. A decoy to distract his attention from the main pacific front. I'd say that a reasonable time-line for this operation (codename: "SQUIRRELL") would be august-semptember 42.

Bogo Mil -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 6:27:52 PM)
quote: As a diversion Amboina makes sense, but weakening Northern Oz could prove to be a problem. I disagree. The the IJA is engaged in India. Karachi will hold for many weeks, if not forever. Any landing in Northern Oz would start a Guadalcanal-like battle and weaken him somwhere else. Both would be great for us. I don't think we need much defense there now. We should be able to repulse one or two NavGd units, that's it. But I have a very bad feeling about going offensively into that beehive. Places like Ambroina are surounded by Japanese bases. We might capture a base or two, but it's a deathtrap. Within a few days there will be escorted Bettys everywhere. We can neither bring supplies nor disengage and evacuate.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 6:37:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil quote: As a diversion Amboina makes sense, but weakening Northern Oz could prove to be a problem. I disagree. The the IJA is engaged in India. Karachi will hold for many weeks, if not forever. Any landing in Northern Oz would start a Guadalcanal-like battle and weaken him somwhere else. Both would be great for us. I don't think we need much defense there now. We should be able to repulse one or two NavGd units, that's it. But I have a very bad feeling about going offensively into that beehive. Places like Ambroina are surounded by Japanese bases. We might capture a base or two, but it's a deathtrap. Within a few days there will be escorted Bettys everywhere. We can neither bring supplies nor disengage and evacuate. Your assumption makes sense Bogo. But my plans concern a very "easy" offensive here. Against only a base force (if things will remain like that)we can easily efford to use fast transport and, once captured, the base can be fed by air (using catalinas and B-17s) or by single AKs (that are very difficult to spot for the IJA bombers). And remember: betties and zeros around Ambonia mean less betties and zeros at Truk....consider that the idea is a decoy operation

Bogo Mil -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 7:04:16 PM)
Do you want less Bettys and Zeros at Truk now? If they are there, you can destroy them there, causing much attrition to his navy air force. I think that is the target of your planned bombing campaign against Truk, isn't it? If they are busy isolating your outpost in the DEI, there won't be much attrition. You are planning massive air supply. This will bind your resources. Bombers on supply runs to Ambroina are not bombing Truk. And a LRCAP will cause heavy losses to the unescorted cargo runs. And eventually you will lose that brigade and whatever else you brought there, too. And what is your gain? You might destroy some oil wells, that's it. I really don't think it's worth the cost.

FeurerKrieg -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 7:36:40 PM)
I think Amboina is the way to go. Anything that draws ANY military assets out of the pacific is good since it accelerates the march on the Marianas. Get there fast enough, and Iwo probably won't even have forts on it yet.

Mistmatz -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 8:50:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg I think Amboina is the way to go. Anything that draws ANY military assets out of the pacific is good since it accelerates the march on the Marianas. Get there fast enough, and Iwo probably won't even have forts on it yet. And it will draw japanese assets. Otherwise the whole DEI might fall very very quickly... [8D]

FeurerKrieg -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 9:12:17 PM)
Indeed - imagine if he DOESN't respond at Amboina - his Oil and Res from DEi will dry up quickly as GH moves on to Kendari, Borneo etc unopposed.

Panther Bait -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/30/2008 9:30:02 PM)
Indeed, I would think one of the main purposes of retaking Amboina is to draw a Japanese response that would otherwise go somewhere else and hopefully make him pay in the meantime. With Allied LBA around, it might even require land based zeroes on LRCAP (with the ensuing extra op losses) or KB (meaning it can't be in CENTPAC) to cover a re-invasion. And if it is in transport range, you can always transport some portion of the brigade back out to later rebuild the unit.

Bogo Mil -> RE: Ambush over Changsha (1/31/2008 10:26:10 AM)
The problem is: There won't be Alliied LBA around. We don't have that many long range fighters, all we can send is unescorted bombers. The airfield of Ambroina itself can be surpressed easily. And there are so many Japanese bases around, some of them very close. All he needs to do is sending his hordes of army fighters. Today these are only Oscars, but Tojos arrive in july, Tonys in august (earlier if he has some luck with research). "Somewhere else" these planes would probably suffer from their short range. Thus I would prefer to fight somewhere else. I think it's time for me to stop arguing about that operation. The General has to make the decision. Edit: I'd like to suggest an alternative operation: Go for Lae. There are many arguments pro Lae: 1. There are really Allied LBA around (from PM) 2. It threatens Rabaul directly. I know, you want to pass Rabaul in the north. But the Japs don't know this. They will probably reinforce Rabaul when it is threatened. And this is really a good diversion: You bind their troops and don't have to fight them. Later they will be bypassed and lost. 3. It is more difficult for the Japs to bring supply and fuel into that theatre. They probably have to divert tankers from the oil wells. 4. If Lae falls again, your troops can have a retreat path to PM (you need to secure Wau, which should not be a problem).

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