RE: China is lost. Changsha falls

RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (Full Version)

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Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/11/2008 5:10:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kereguelen quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner That's a good news![:)] You're certainly always looking on the bright side of life[;)]. If he does not keep the Manchukuo Garrison Requirement there is only a small chance that the Soviets will activate (failing the requirement does not guarantee Soviet activation). But you're already facing two Kwantung Army divisions (+ lots of artillery and combat engineer regiments) in China and you'll have to deal with this small problem now I've also spotted many Manchurian Cav divisions in the north of China...i bet he's keeping the AV requirements on the edge... However it doesn't make much more difference at this stage. I have to gain time. Delay him. ...and push forward in the Pacific! With Karachi pretty safe for the time being i have to focus on the pacific issue now. First target is to put Truk under pressure and make him feel unconfortable in the pacific...he has to worry about his souther perimeter!!

ny59giants -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/11/2008 8:21:30 PM)
Are you still too thin to consider taking back Timor and make a push to threaten the SRA region?? Truk is nice, but it is more a tactical target vs. a strategic one. If his Oil and Resources are threatened, it seems he would have to react.

witpqs -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/11/2008 9:53:05 PM)
Instead of attacking in Northern China, launch a series of aggressive diversions there...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 12:58:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ny59giants Are you still too thin to consider taking back Timor and make a push to threaten the SRA region?? Truk is nice, but it is more a tactical target vs. a strategic one. If his Oil and Resources are threatened, it seems he would have to react. No, we don't have enough forces to go in force for Timor right now...the pacific is sucking all of our troops and resources right now...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 1:00:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: witpqs Instead of attacking in Northern China, launch a series of aggressive diversions there... Gotta save my supplies now. He's well dig in in the north however and i'd need a LOT of corps and a LOT of supplies even for "aggressive diversions".... No,i'll get back and fortify Sian and Yenan area...and hope, hope and hope[;)]

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 9:13:47 AM)
Ok, here's the situation....horrible to say the least!! At Liuchow i have 650 AVs...badly shaped and badly supplied. He has 18 units arriving there from Whocow, while more 500 AVs of mine are trying to reach it in order to try to save my day and keep a door open for the rest of my army trapped at Hangchow... At Changsha he has more 40 units...and the tanks are already at Hangchow...i'll try to make a part of my army (4500 AVs) at Hangchow exit from the hex NE of Hangchow..in order to take the northern route towards Chungking...but we all now that the hopes are very little against these odds...he marches quicker than me...no doubts about that. In these conditions i cannot hope to hold any of his attacks...so the pocket is closing...with the whole central and southern chinese armies in....[:(] Say a prayer for all those chinese... [image]local://upfiles/4162/3DDFBEAC685249EEB390FBD8855B5AD5.jpg[/image]

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 10:22:45 AM)
...meanwhile in the Pacific... ...3 BBs(the fastest ones -22 knots-), 4 hexes east of Eniwetok, have recieved orders to assemble a Bombardment TFs, along with 4DDs, and will attempt to break Ponape's defences. The Fast transport TF is loading up the First Marine Regiment of the 2nd USMC Div at Eniwetok, while a fast AP (22 knots) is loading the raiders Bn. The 4 CVs, along with 5 more BBs and most of my pacific surface fleet will be at Eniwetok in 2 days. He has reinforced Truk with 100 fighters, 200 bombers and some 264 aux planes...will be a bloody mess!!! 32 C-47s are ready to be transfered at Eniwetok. As soon as Ponape will be conquered we'll move in by transport planes a lot of Engeneers and base forces. Now i badly need to open a theatre that can significantly draw some of his attentions and forces from the continent.....problem here is that to conduct an offensive operation i badly need escorting fighters...and the only fighters with enough legs to get from Ponape to Truk are the F-38Fs....but i get only 20 of them each month...[:(] Anyway...with an allied base at 6 hexes from his main pacific redout, he will be having some bad headhaces...i hope...the threat of my BBs very close to him...some 400 bombers, higly experienced...4 U.S. CVs...this all should force him to drive his attention here...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 10:34:29 AM)
...And now Russia. Let's say that the Chinese campaign will be over within the next 2/4 months. Let's assume that he can bring to Russia...mmm...10,000 AV...plus those 8000 that he already has there. Will Russia be able to hold 18,000 AVs? In mid 42?...Forts and infrastructures in Russia are building since the first day, and the air force has seen a good developing of new machines (The Mig-3 is now equipped in many more units, along with the LaaG-3 and the Yak-1)....but we've seen what he can master in a single theatre...and the Whole KB could be supporting his operations in Russia...gotta start a brand new plan for the defence of Russia...will try to look for the old plan i've made in the first pages of this aar...

castor troy -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 10:44:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner ...And now Russia. Let's say that the Chinese campaign will be over within the next 2/4 months. Let's assume that he can bring to Russia...mmm...10,000 AV...plus those 8000 that he already has there. Will Russia be able to hold 18,000 AVs? In mid 42?...Forts and infrastructures in Russia are building since the first day, and the air force has seen a good developing of new machines (The Mig-3 is now equipped in many more units, along with the LaaG-3 and the Yak-1)....but we've seen what he can master in a single theatre...and the Whole KB could be supporting his operations in Russia...gotta start a brand new plan for the defence of Russia...will try to look for the old plan i've made in the first pages of this aar... I doubt that Russia would hold against 18.000 av but I´m not familar with CHS. The biggest problem for you will be the fact that his first strike will totally ruin your airforce as they are not on cap but training. So in fact you probably will lose most of those Migs, Lags and Yaks. If he´s able to take out most of the airfields on the first day (wouldn´t be surprising with 5 or 6 big raids coupled with a nav bombardment of Vladivostok) then most of your first line fighters will show up in the aircraft loss list. I made once the experience that it would have been better to field hundreds of I-16s that can be destroyed by the first huge Japanese wave and after having Russia activated, move the squadrons out and upgrade them somewhere in the North. Supply is always a problem for the Russians. I wonder if there´s some error of the supply vanishing as it seems there´s far too less, even though that there are a lot of HI and ressource centers. Or the Russian just eat up most of the supplies. In the long run, I doubt you could hold Russia if he really brings most of his Chinese troops (wouldn´t be surprising...)

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 2:18:08 PM)
No, afaik you need first to activate the russians,moving in the "famous" hex...then you can attack the AFs...not before! And i already moved back most of my major fighting force. In safer AFs...At Vladivostok remain only 150 fighters. My planes won't be caught on the ground...

castor troy -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 2:41:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner No, afaik you need first to activate the russians,moving in the "famous" hex...then you can attack the AFs...not before! And i already moved back most of my major fighting force. In safer AFs...At Vladivostok remain only 150 fighters. My planes won't be caught on the ground... hmm, strange. An opponent of mine did exactly that to me. I have no idea if he was able to move a unit into the "famous" hex - like you call it - (which hex would that be???) unseen, but my planes were all on training when he bombed my airfields and it happened SUDDENLY. The day before I was not aware that the Japanese would attack me.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 2:44:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner No, afaik you need first to activate the russians,moving in the "famous" hex...then you can attack the AFs...not before! And i already moved back most of my major fighting force. In safer AFs...At Vladivostok remain only 150 fighters. My planes won't be caught on the ground... hmm, strange. An opponent of mine did exactly that to me. I have no idea if he was able to move a unit into the "famous" hex - like you call it - (which hex would that be???) unseen, but my planes were all on training when he bombed my airfields and it happened SUDDENLY. The day before I was not aware that the Japanese would attack me. The hex is the one just south of Mutakiang...and...mhhhmmm...well, so better to move them all back now...however i'd need more feedbacks on this issue...i've been experiencing this with Hawker and that's what i've known about russian activation...

castor troy -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 2:51:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner No, afaik you need first to activate the russians,moving in the "famous" hex...then you can attack the AFs...not before! And i already moved back most of my major fighting force. In safer AFs...At Vladivostok remain only 150 fighters. My planes won't be caught on the ground... hmm, strange. An opponent of mine did exactly that to me. I have no idea if he was able to move a unit into the "famous" hex - like you call it - (which hex would that be???) unseen, but my planes were all on training when he bombed my airfields and it happened SUDDENLY. The day before I was not aware that the Japanese would attack me. The hex is the one just south of Mutakiang...and...mhhhmmm...well, so better to move them all back now...however i'd need more feedbacks on this issue...i've been experiencing this with Hawker and that's what i've known about russian activation... isn´t something in the manual that says something about a recon flight is already enough to activate the Russians? If recon is possible, I wonder if the Japanese can´t just order their aircraft on an airfield strike to activate the Russians. Would be easy to test against the AI but ... I´m at work now! [:D]

Jim D Burns -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 3:01:24 PM)
I think what happens is he sets his air groups to their missions and they get to fly in the afternoon phase, after a land unit has activated Russia. I know Russian air can be caught on the ground, so this makes sense. Never played a Russian attack though, so someone with firsthand knowledge needs to chime in. Jim

Bogo Mil -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 3:07:46 PM)
I was off for some days, but I have some comments on the discussions here. In my opinion, a "gamey style" is not such a bad thing. It is more a question of philosophy. The most successful strategy game of all times is always played "gamey" - or do you know a chess player who tries to reproduce real world tactics of ancient Indian armies? Trollelite plays quite gamey and uses all tricks, which are allowed by the game and your house rules. You should just adjust your style a bit and do the same. It might become a new, interesting experience. All that whining about gameyness kills more fun than the gameyness itself. In China you have still a chance to hold Chungking. The place is urban, has autosupply and is so far inland, that the Japs have great difficulties to supply a big army. I think you should not try to evacuate all your army via Liuching - too many eggs in one basket, imho. A part should go via the clear hex NW of Hengchow. He can not close both paths that easily. In the meantime, you have to exploit his weak position in the Pacific. His offensive and defensive capabilitiews there are very limited. I would consider to weaken the defense of most of your islands and Northern Oz. This should free enough troops for another big offensive. In this theatre, you have the chance to "win" a lot of time compared to the historic timeline. I would go for New Guinea now. Maybe you lose one or two places to a limited counteroffensive if you weakened them too much. But this will not break you. All I said against the "Amboina diversion" will work here in the other way.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 3:51:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil In my opinion, a "gamey style" is not such a bad thing. It is more a question of philosophy. The most successful strategy game of all times is always played "gamey" - or do you know a chess player who tries to reproduce real world tactics of ancient Indian armies? Trollelite plays quite gamey and uses all tricks, which are allowed by the game and your house rules. You should just adjust your style a bit and do the same. It might become a new, interesting experience. All that whining about gameyness kills more fun than the gameyness itself. AFAIK a recon flight doesn't activate the russians. Only marching towards that Hex activate them and so enable the attack air missions... However, Bogo, i never whined (or, well, i THINK i never did it) nor called for gameyness. And i want to avoid any comment that can leads me back to that discussion. I'm sorry if this attitude may sound rude to your post, but i've already expressed my feelings and my policy here. Thx. My pacific islands are already empty.I have units only on Tarawa, Wotje,Maloelap,Eniwetok, Johnstons(a single base force here), Wake and Midway. Nothing more. The diversions towards Ambonia or Timor will be made (i'm moving supplies and fuel for that towards Darwin) but it will require some time. For the time being the CENTPAC vector is where we can push. It's may guys...the allies really do not have those many units available at the moment!

hades1001 -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 3:52:20 PM)
Everyone here except G.H is talking about how "gamey" troll, they just didn't get that troll moved in all his Southern Army and took G.H. by surprise, that is the key point why G.H. is going to lost China, not because troll used some tricks. This is a great success of tactics, someone here just try to ignore this success and keep talking something else.

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 3:57:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hades1001 Everyone here except G.H is talking about how "gamey" troll, they just didn't get that troll moved in all his Southern Army and took G.H. by surprise, that is the key point why G.H. is going to lost China. This is a great success of tactics, someone here just try to ignore this success and keep talking something else. I completely agree on that. I also told that to Trollelite...he has made a masterpiece of tactic at Canton. I'm not losing china because of some flaw in the code. If Troll had used the paras in a non-base hex like he did in India, his merits would probably be less clear...but he didn't. So hat off to Trollelite. ...at the same time let's blame myself...i didn't notice the manace[:@]...to confident[:(]

TenChiMato -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 5:47:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hades1001 Everyone here except G.H is talking about how "gamey" troll, they just didn't get that troll moved in all his Southern Army and took G.H. by surprise, that is the key point why G.H. is going to lost China, not because troll used some tricks. This is a great success of tactics, someone here just try to ignore this success and keep talking something else. Iam not sure we have read the same AAR, in any case the one thing Iam sure about is that noone mentionned as gamey the mass concentration of forces in Canton. As GH mentionned the use of non-base hexes paras attacks or other 'subject to debate' tricks as seen in India would have been another matter. As for catching GH offbalance at Canton with a mass transfer of forces, one will appreciate the styleplay or not but it has nothing to do with gameyness imo.

aztez -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 6:14:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner quote: ORIGINAL: castor troy quote: ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner No, afaik you need first to activate the russians,moving in the "famous" hex...then you can attack the AFs...not before! And i already moved back most of my major fighting force. In safer AFs...At Vladivostok remain only 150 fighters. My planes won't be caught on the ground... hmm, strange. An opponent of mine did exactly that to me. I have no idea if he was able to move a unit into the "famous" hex - like you call it - (which hex would that be???) unseen, but my planes were all on training when he bombed my airfields and it happened SUDDENLY. The day before I was not aware that the Japanese would attack me. The hex is the one just south of Mutakiang...and...mhhhmmm...well, so better to move them all back now...however i'd need more feedbacks on this issue...i've been experiencing this with Hawker and that's what i've known about russian activation... isn´t something in the manual that says something about a recon flight is already enough to activate the Russians? If recon is possible, I wonder if the Japanese can´t just order their aircraft on an airfield strike to activate the Russians. Would be easy to test against the AI but ... I´m at work now! [:D] No the recon flights don't activate Russia. You need to enter the specific hex just as GH described. Very wise move regarding moving your airforce into safer airfields. I would suggest Northern part which are out of reach by trollelite.

Jim D Burns -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 6:36:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aztez Very wise move regarding moving your airforce into safer airfields. I would suggest Northern part which are out of reach by trollelite. Umm, as far as i know you cannot rebase anything in Russia till after activation. But I'll check that in my next turn just to be sure. Jim

mlees -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 7:03:24 PM)
I am playing RHS CVO, against a Ai controlled Japan. The Japanese AI air stikes the Russian airfield 2 hexes NE of Vladivostok twice a week, and daily launches recon missions over USSR territory. No automatic Soviet activation, Soviet units frozen in place, aircraft missions allowed remain training or stand down only. (Active allied units may not move to Soviet bases, either. I tried to ship supplies to a Soviet base dot in the hopes of assisting in the building up of a base there.) I assume that activation may only come through a Japanese LCU entering the USSR (the "magic hex". not sure which one that is. Near Vlad?), or through Manchuko garrison requirements not being met by Japan.

aztez -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 7:47:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns quote: ORIGINAL: aztez Very wise move regarding moving your airforce into safer airfields. I would suggest Northern part which are out of reach by trollelite. Umm, as far as i know you cannot rebase anything in Russia till after activation. But I'll check that in my next turn just to be sure. Jim Oh.. There is no time to evacuate some bombers and fighters into North? I guess I should have read the houserules. You might actually suggest at least 2 weeks "freetime" when Russia gets activated or I think you might be in very deep trouble. He will come with at least 2 huge armies in Russia. And I would bet the main thrust will be headed into Northern Russia thus cutting your forces in two. Also there will be another army in the Southern Russia encircling Vladivostok. So, if your HR prevent you to reorganize your defense and withdraw at least some airforce you will be in world of trouble! Hmmm, didn't want to paint negative picture to the future but that the way I see things develop! [:D][:D]

mlees -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 8:31:04 PM)
quote: Oh.. There is no time to evacuate some bombers and fighters into North? I guess I should have read the houserules. Not a house rule. Game hard code.

aztez -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 8:47:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mlees quote: Oh.. There is no time to evacuate some bombers and fighters into North? I guess I should have read the houserules. Not a house rule. Game hard code. I hope Houserules aren't hardcoded! [:D][:D] ...What I meant was that didn't read whether there were any houserules in place regarding Russia. I sincerely hope there are. As for the activation. Well, Trollelite must the enter the triggering hex meaning that he cannot launch airstrikes same time so there should be a chance to withdraw some aircraft before he hits the airfields. I should know since I have invaded Russia with mixed results.... [8\|]

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 9:15:17 PM)
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/05/42 I've already moved back many of my air groups in Russia...so there's no hard coded rule about that. However there's no HR about the russian activation...so i have to face the two armies you're talking about. Anyway at Bozrya (and in the area around) there are 9 forts and an army of 2000 AVs...not bad. At Vladivostok i already have a plan for its defence...anyway my main concern is about a landing in the back...those coastal bases are very lightly defended... we'll see. In China we managed to put 1300 AVs at Liuchow...his 18 units are still marching...anyway..i doubt i have any chance of keeping the pocket open[:o] More 1300 Jap AVs are marching from Nanchang...he defeated a light chinese division which was left behind...more 1300 AVs...[:o] At Truk he moved many more fighters...140 today...and i lost 2 recon lightings due to A2A combat...at 25000 fts...gosh, his pilots must be really skilled!!! Anyway, Everything is ready for Ponape. 2 Bombardment TFs are moving from Eniwetok and the CVs are arrived. The fast transport maga-group is being loaded, as long as a small transport TF with the Raider BN... Let's see guys...it will be a HOT week!!! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80 Allied aircraft B-17E Fortress x 63 F-4 Lightning x 5 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 6 casualties reported Port supply hits 3 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Ponape Coastal Gun Regiment, at 73,80 Allied aircraft A-20B Boston x 14 B-25C Mitchell x 30 B-26B Marauder x 18 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 37 casualties reported Guns lost 2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ground combat at 47,38 Japanese Shock attack Attacking force 9927 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1342 this is the jap army coming out of Nanchang...really too many AVs... Defending force 609 troops, 1 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 12 Japanese max assault: 316 - adjusted assault: 306 Allied max defense: 11 - adjusted defense: 1 Japanese assault odds: 306 to 1 Japanese ground losses: 14 casualties reported Guns lost 1 Allied ground losses: 152 casualties reported Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 10:32:15 PM)
The actual status of Russian forces [image]local://upfiles/4162/BD504E0E3C78421FB8A6E72C7EB9A362.jpg[/image]

hades1001 -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 11:08:19 PM)
I don't think your actions in central pacific is unnoticed, do you? where is his KB anyway?

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 11:11:58 PM)
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/06/42 We're ready for Ponape. He has a surface force at Truk! We conducted a minesweeping operation today. More in program for tomorrow. My 2 BB TFs are ready to come into action...let's see if his CAs spotted at Truk wanna come out and play against my BBs...I've set my whole bomber army to Naval attack at Eniwetok, with the P-38s on escort... The invasion TFs will be kept on foot for another day...wanna first see what my BBs do... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TF 1014 encounters mine field at Ponape (73,80) - Coastal Guns Fire Back! 7 Coastal gun shots fired in defense. Allied Ships MSW Bobolink, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damagethose bastards are still operative!![:@] MSW Whippoorwill -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80 Allied aircraft P-40B Tomahawk x 2 B-17E Fortress x 62 F-4 Lightning x 6 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 17 casualties reported Port hits 1 Port fuel hits 1 Port supply hits 2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Air attack on Ponape Coastal Gun Regiment, at 73,80 Allied aircraft A-20B Boston x 14 B-25C Mitchell x 34 B-26B Marauder x 24 No Allied losses Japanese ground losses: 27 casualties reported Hold your breath.... Karachi is at 270,000 supplies...lost 4,000 in the last week[:(] Manila is still at 11,300...

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: China is lost. Changsha falls (2/12/2008 11:12:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hades1001 I don't think your actions in central pacific is unnoticed, do you? where is his KB anyway? Not at all...no news from the KB since 1 month! If he wanna come out with the Kb it will be fun...

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