Three Suggestions (Full Version)

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DeadInThrench -> Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 3:11:53 PM)

Three suggestions.... all relative to the fact that the combat strengths on the counters are not all that accurate re the real combat abilities of the units...

First, I find myself going from the main screen to the far upper right (or bringing up the pop-up menu and scrolling down to the bottom) a LOT to get up the unit screen for units, and it gets to be a bit tireing. The suggestion, is if you right click on a unit WHILE THE LEFT MOUSE BUTTON IS DOWN, you bypass the pop-up menu and go directly to the unit screen. IMO, this would make this aspect of the game go a lot smoother AND... this would be an easy one to implement. The Windows procedure gets invoked whenever a mouse is clicked or let up and thus all you need is a flag and a check of this flag when the right mouse button is clicked.
Second... it's nice to have the ability to have unit's movement displayed in lieu of the rough combat values but, what would be even nicer, is if you had a third option here, to have unit's designations displayed instead. In other words, would be nice to have this third option to have '501' displayed on the bottom of the counter for the 501 parachute regiment of the 101st airborne. Would be nicer if you could have 501/101 displayed but I don't believe there is really enough space for that, and in any case just getting the 501 is really all you need.

Having the units orgs on the counters was a standard on board wargame counters and for some reason, going to computer games a lot of em seem to have left that behind, and IMO they are missing out on a lot. You get a feel for each unit's abilities and it is nice to be able to see at a glance what you have where.

Yeah, this one might be more difficult to implement, maybe needing a new field in the unit data and having to edit all the released scenarios.

The third suggestion... being that different types of units now get different amounts of SHOTS in a round, would be nice if this was something that was taken into account in the rought combat values on the counters. In other words, bombarding artillery just get one shot in a round, but infantry gets 1 shot if attacking and 2 if defending (so, should be a multplier of 1.5 here) and motorized units, get 3 shots in a round both attacking and defending, so should be 3x multiplier there. Yes, the actual combat values of units really depend on the situation but still would be nice if the rough combat values as the appear on the counters were as accurate as possible.

Thanks for reading this!

DiT



Karri -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 3:31:19 PM)

Regarding the first one, press u.



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 3:51:27 PM)

I was aware of that one but use it even less frequently than the other two options.

Hmmm... another posibility is some other way of getting up the hex composition screen, other than F2. Is there any way to get this with the mouse? Any possibility of having this as the screen in the upper right, what with the information there being mostly redundant.

DiT



Veers -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 6:12:32 PM)

I've alwyas thought that one of the true beauties of TOAW has been the vagueness of the Combat Strength numbers on the counter. You really have to have a 'feel' for things to do well and know how that attack will go. Certainly more realistic than being able to calculate exactly how things will go before you even role the dice.
quote:

Hmmm... another posibility is some other way of getting up the hex composition screen, other than F2. Is there any way to get this with the mouse? Any possibility of having this as the screen in the upper right, what with the information there being mostly redundant.

I kind of like it how it is now. And...Ctrl-C, with your mouse over the hex to get the 'group composition', or right-click--->group composition, with the mouse.

quote:

Having the units orgs on the counters was a standard on board wargame counters and for some reason, going to computer games a lot of em seem to have left that behind, and IMO they are missing out on a lot. You get a feel for each unit's abilities and it is nice to be able to see at a glance what you have where.

Orgs?



Telumar -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 10:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

I kind of like it how it is now. And...Ctrl-C, with your mouse over the hex to get the 'group composition', or right-click--->group composition, with the mouse.



Only C, without Ctrl.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers
I've alwyas thought that one of the true beauties of TOAW has been the vagueness of the Combat Strength numbers on the counter. You really have to have a 'feel' for things to do well and know how that attack will go. Certainly more realistic than being able to calculate exactly how things will go before you even role the dice.


Totally agree. [:)]



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/29/2007 11:49:48 PM)

By 'orgs' I was referring to the unit's organizational structure, for example the 501st glider regiment. Many board wargames that I remember typically would have the unit's specific organization on the right side of the unit type symbol and the higher level organization on the left side. Not enough space here to do that but, would be nice, IMO, if that was an option to have on the bottom, particularly in view of the fact that the displayed unit combat values, are not all that useful.

Also, given the display combat values being significantly off the mark, and you say you like it better that way, then why even have them?? How do you think a new player feels when they start to play the game and find that these values are well off the money. If they are made available, they should be as accurate as possible (e.g. take into account the fact that different types of units get different numbers of shots in the combat round).

Given you like to play the game not dealing with the values on the counters, I would think you would like to have the option to have the unit's designation on them so you can see at a glance exactly what you are looking for, and also would be nice if the hex composition screen, was an option for what is displayed in the upper right hand corner (because otherwise right now what is up there is mostly redundant).

But REMEMBER <g>, there IS a standard game and though neither you nor I use it, there are those that do, and thus if the combat values are made available on the counters, they should be as accurate as possible.

So, IMO, as far as my suggestions are concerned... SOMETHING FOR EVERYONE!! <g>

DiT



Karri -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 12:39:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench
Also, given the display combat values being significantly off the mark, and you say you like it better that way, then why even have them?? How do you think a new player feels when they start to play the game and find that these values are well off the money. If they are made available, they should be as accurate as possible (e.g. take into account the fact that different types of units get different numbers of shots in the combat round).


How exactly do you suppose they should be calculated? I find them to be good enough...it's different in board games when 'strenght' and 'attack' and 'defence' and such were just plain numbers. In TOAW these are calculated from different kind of equipment...Now, as I said earlier, and which 'newbies' will probaply find good as well is the fact that you can determine the condition of the unit by looking at it's strenght.

quote:


Given you like to play the game not dealing with the values on the counters, I would think you would like to have the option to have the unit's designation on them so you can see at a glance exactly what you are looking for, and also would be nice if the hex composition screen, was an option for what is displayed in the upper right hand corner (because otherwise right now what is up there is mostly redundant).


Hotkeys are good enough for me, I don't see what's so hard about using those. The key is getting to know the scenario...TOAW is not an easy game, and is not ment to be.



Veers -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 2:05:35 AM)

I am at work, putting this post in to remind myself later to make a more detailed post.

Basically. I like having the combat numbers on there, because I use them, as general guides. I certainyl would be unhappy if they were not there at all, and would be bummed if they were exactly precice, as there goes the chance of setting upa poor attack...



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 4:05:00 AM)

I am confident the TOAW team can come up with reasonable multipliers for the AP from different types of units to make the combat results on the counters more accurate.

I believe what is happenning here.... is a more sophisticated combat system was added with COW, but the way the numbers on the counters is calculated was never updated to reflect these changes, and now these numbers are off the mark in many cases.

For example, when attacking, infantry only get 1 shot per round while motorized units get 3 shots per round. So, there is a 3x difference there that is not reflected in the counter attack numbers.

IMO, *impossible* to be totally precise here. In the discussion on shots per round, they state that this is the MAX shots per round, and impossible for me to guess or, IMO, for anyone to totally fathom here, exactly what this would mean as a multiplier, and it changes from situation to situation. Then, some units have different shots per round attacking and defending. Also, 'engaged' units is also mentioned here but not anywhere else and so, looks like there is a factor there.

So, again, impossible to be totally precise here, but the TOAW team should be able to come up with gut feel multipliers for the diffferent types of units that would make the counter attack values more reasonable realtive to the changes that were made in COW.

Otherwise, new players will run into situations like I ran into with the Italian East Africa scenario, where I had a 10 Atk Inf Div and a 7 Atk Art unit, and the art unit performed nowheres up to what the Inf unit was performing (relatively speaking), and then I ultimately find out that the Inf Div has some motorized units that get the 3x multiplier and the artillery unit doesn't, and thus the difference, and thus the numbers on the counters, are not very accurate (what can I say) for some units.

DiT



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 4:26:34 AM)

There is another game that I play, winSPWW2 as a matter of fact, where I use a two handed approach, one on the mouse and one on the F (fire) and R (refresh) keys and use those all the time.

But, here we are talking about DISPLAYS coming up that need to be ended (rather than an action that is done and nothing needed after that) and I just end up using the pull-down as the fastest way to get the display up and down and, at least for me, would be easier for me if I could LEFT and RIGHT click at the same time and go directly to the unit display rather than having to scroll down the pull-down.

I respect the fact that the TOAW team has to make what they feel is the best choice as far as any future enhancements, but as far as what I feel would be easier for me, is NOT something that is subject to argument.

Yeah, the Internet is SO GREAT! I have an idea. How bout we all JUST PRETEND that everything is perfect and everything, is JUST GREAT!

Whatever,

DiT <g>



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 4:34:35 AM)

Veers....

For me, I would prefer to have the option. A lot of times I would want to play with the combat values (if they were reasonably accurate) but, then again, some times I would want to play with the unit designations.

For example, in the Italian East Africa scenario, those inf batallions have designations of SEC, SDF, SEAC, etc, and I don't have a clue as to what these mean.

But, maybe I should, if nothing else out of respect for the men that fought and died there.

So, if the option were avaiable, I am sure I would sometimes play with the unit designations on instead of the combat values.

I should mention here, as far as War In Russia is concerned, I feel that is a major lacking, all the units look the same except for the difference between infantry and armored corps, and some color differences between nationalities. Would be much better, IMO, if the 3rd panzer corps, had a 3 on the counter. Then I would be in much better position to see at a glance which unit is here and which is there.

Same thing here in TOAW.

Whatever,

DiT



Veers -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 10:05:17 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench

Veers....

For me, I would prefer to have the option. A lot of times I would want to play with the combat values (if they were reasonably accurate) but, then again, some times I would want to play with the unit designations.

For example, in the Italian East Africa scenario, those inf batallions have designations of SEC, SDF, SEAC, etc, and I don't have a clue as to what these mean.

But, maybe I should, if nothing else out of respect for the men that fought and died there.

So, if the option were avaiable, I am sure I would sometimes play with the unit designations on instead of the combat values.

Oh heck, not saying that's not a good idea. We already have a toggle between combat strengths and movement points, I certainly wouldn't be arguing against having that also toggle through designations.



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 4:50:37 PM)

Veers....

Well, thank you! <g>

But, doing something like this would not be the easiest enhancement in the world. So, putting something on the table here for the TOAW team, for their consideration. Usually, something like this comes down to expected value vs expected effort to implement.

Making the counter combat vars more accurate relative to the changes made in COW, would be much easier. Just decide on multipliers for each type of unit then put those in the code. But, again, they would have to decide if they want to go that way.

My third suggestion, going directly to the unit screen if you right click on a unit while you are already left clicking... again, this one would be easy but they have to decide if they want to offer that.

A 4th suggestion came out here as a matter of fact, putting the hex composition screen in the upper right hand area as an alternative to what is there now. Again, they have to decide if this would be a plus and if it is worth the effort.

One suggestion I made for other games in other forums, was they really needed to put the scenarios for different eras/campaigns/wars in diffferent folders and make it so you could bring up JUST the list of scenarios for a given era/campaign/war by iteself and, it was really great when I got TOAW3 and applied the patch and, gee wiz, the TOAW team, already did that!!!

An advantage of being an experienced player but new to TOAW, is a fresh look at what is there now with TOAW. But, I tend to make my suggestions then move on. The TOAW team, gotta make their call on this as well as lots of other stuff I am sure.

Only the best games are the ones worth improving!!

DiT



Veers -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 5:32:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench
My third suggestion, going directly to the unit screen if you right click on a unit while you are already left clicking... again, this one would be easy but they have to decide if they want to offer that.

Yeah, that's be a cool improvement. Quite usefull, save a click every time you need to see the units' innards, which is...let's all the freakin' time. [:D]



rickier65 -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/30/2007 11:26:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers


quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench

Veers....

For me, I would prefer to have the option. A lot of times I would want to play with the combat values (if they were reasonably accurate) but, then again, some times I would want to play with the unit designations.

For example, in the Italian East Africa scenario, those inf batallions have designations of SEC, SDF, SEAC, etc, and I don't have a clue as to what these mean.

But, maybe I should, if nothing else out of respect for the men that fought and died there.

So, if the option were avaiable, I am sure I would sometimes play with the unit designations on instead of the combat values.

Oh heck, not saying that's not a good idea. We already have a toggle between combat strengths and movement points, I certainly wouldn't be arguing against having that also toggle through designations.



Actually, for me, I would really like having the unit designations available. That is one place where I find myself not as involved as I used to get with board wargames (I started playing around 1970 with AH and SPI). The immersion factor is so much greater when it's easier to identify with a specific unit. (this goes for most of the computer games I have - not just TOAW).

Unfortunately, I suspect this wouldn't be easy to implement at all. In fact maybe not even possible. So I won't hold my breath, but It would really be nice from my perspective.

Rick



Veers -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/31/2007 12:16:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench
Veers....
For me, I would prefer to have the option. A lot of times I would want to play with the combat values (if they were reasonably accurate) but, then again, some times I would want to play with the unit designations.
For example, in the Italian East Africa scenario, those inf batallions have designations of SEC, SDF, SEAC, etc, and I don't have a clue as to what these mean.
But, maybe I should, if nothing else out of respect for the men that fought and died there.
So, if the option were avaiable, I am sure I would sometimes play with the unit designations on instead of the combat values.

Oh heck, not saying that's not a good idea. We already have a toggle between combat strengths and movement points, I certainly wouldn't be arguing against having that also toggle through designations.

Actually, for me, I would really like having the unit designations available. That is one place where I find myself not as involved as I used to get with board wargames (I started playing around 1970 with AH and SPI). The immersion factor is so much greater when it's easier to identify with a specific unit. (this goes for most of the computer games I have - not just TOAW).
Unfortunately, I suspect this wouldn't be easy to implement at all. In fact maybe not even possible. So I won't hold my breath, but It would really be nice from my perspective.
Rick

Rick, what do you mean by unit designations? The unit type is identified on the conter and the name (designation?) is avail at the top right hand corner.



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/31/2007 12:17:32 AM)

It would be possible I am sure.... just a fair amount of work.

I don't believe the unit names could be used as is, so they would have to add a 5 (6 if a trailing zero is used) character field to the unit records. Then, they would have to add the function to the editor so that the unit 'designation' could be set in these 5 character fields, and THEN, somebody, would have to go through all the scenarios and add these designations. This wouldn't be that hard in the sense that you would have the unit name at the top, but it would be tedius that is for sure.

And then... they would have to add the function so that you could select the unit designations to appear on the counters. This would be another step in the 'movement or combat values' button. Then, lastly, they would have to add the code so that the unit designations would appear on the counters when that option is selected.

Hmmm... you could add all this and be done but then, would take a complete release of all the scenarios so, we might be talking a new version of the game here I dunno.

DiT



rickier65 -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/31/2007 1:51:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rick
quote:

ORIGINAL: Veers
quote:

ORIGINAL: DeadInThrench
Veers....
For me, I would prefer to have the option. A lot of times I would want to play with the combat values (if they were reasonably accurate) but, then again, some times I would want to play with the unit designations.
For example, in the Italian East Africa scenario, those inf batallions have designations of SEC, SDF, SEAC, etc, and I don't have a clue as to what these mean.
But, maybe I should, if nothing else out of respect for the men that fought and died there.
So, if the option were avaiable, I am sure I would sometimes play with the unit designations on instead of the combat values.

Oh heck, not saying that's not a good idea. We already have a toggle between combat strengths and movement points, I certainly wouldn't be arguing against having that also toggle through designations.

Actually, for me, I would really like having the unit designations available. That is one place where I find myself not as involved as I used to get with board wargames (I started playing around 1970 with AH and SPI). The immersion factor is so much greater when it's easier to identify with a specific unit. (this goes for most of the computer games I have - not just TOAW).
Unfortunately, I suspect this wouldn't be easy to implement at all. In fact maybe not even possible. So I won't hold my breath, but It would really be nice from my perspective.
Rick

Rick, what do you mean by unit designations? The unit type is identified on the conter and the name (designation?) is avail at the top right hand corner.


Veers,

I think DiT described it in his post, which is what got me thinking about it. I meant the unit organization, if you ever have a chance to check out some of the old SPI games and look at the counters, you'll see usually,(though not always) counters have rgt ID/div sometimes div/corp. and yes, that info is in top corner of TOAW for units you move over.

In any event, just thought I'd mention that this is one thing lacking from most computer games, I undertand thers only so much room on counters, so I dont imagine anything will change, but it would be nice.

Rick



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (10/31/2007 8:25:40 PM)

I think the key thing here is to be able to see AT A GLANCE which unit is which. I spend most of my time looking at the map and if I could see at a glance which unit was which, that would improve my enjoyment of the game. Yes you can get the unit designation in the upper right hand corner display, or bring up the unit display, but it is not the same as seeing everything there in front of you.

The thing is, they do not have enough space for this on the sides of the counters, BUT, they didn't have enough space for the movement allowance and so did it like they did, and it's kinda like, great idea (!), but, can we get the option for the unit designations as well?? <g>

Oh... one other thing. I was looking at the artwork they use now and the combat values are in two pixel (or more) wide font, but the letters (F, D, etc) on the side of the counters, are 1 pixel wide. If they used the one pixel wide font, they might be succeptible to 'hard to see' comments, but if they do not have a full font in the two-pixel font they are using for the numbers, well, doing something like this could prove quite difficult indeed.

DiT



pculliton -> RE: Three Suggestions (12/3/2007 10:08:14 PM)

Hmmm.  On-counter designations would make reorganizing divided units a heck of a lot easier, while also adding a great feeling of gaming authenticity.  Great idea.

Honestly, having unit designations on the counter would probably be more useful to me in building an attack than attack / defense numbers.  It's a big pain to have to figure out who should go where to maintain unit cohesion in a big fight.



DeadInThrench -> RE: Three Suggestions (12/6/2007 7:34:24 PM)

pculliton..

I put this suggestion on the table and still feel it would be a great enhancement... however... IMO the code would not be that difficult (though, if there are font problems then that could be a big challange), but once this was implemented in the code and in the editor, somebody would have to edit every unit in every scenario to add the 5 character or less unit designation, and that could prove to be a lot of work.

On the other hand, someone else proposed putting the readiness/supply level and proficiency/%of TO&E on the counters, as options like combat values and movement points remaining are options now, and IMO this would be a great enhancement that would not be that difficult to implement and would not need any update of the scenarios.

Also, after making these suggestions I also suggested that there be an option to have the unit composition screen in the upper right hand corner as an alternative to what is up there now. Because they are the same size and use the same background, this is another one that should not be that difficult to implement.

If both of these suggestions were implemented and you wanted to see the readiness/supply levels of your entire army, and you had both of these options turned on, you could see the valus for all units alone on a hex right on the map and in cases where you had stacks, you could just move the mouse pointer over each of them and would see the readiness/supply values for all the units in the stack in the upper right hand corner, without having to select each unit individually.

IMO these two together would make getting visibility into readiness and supply, much easier.

DiT



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