A few random comments and questions.. (Full Version)

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Sabotteur -> A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 1:23:03 PM)

A few random comments and questions..

First off, I want to thank the developers for producing an excellent game! Having grown up playing the old SSI tactical wargames like “Turning Point: Gettysburg”, seeing “Forge of Freedom” was nostalgia hit to my wargaming experience. The game has a great depth and is very comprehensive in its approach to covering the Civil War. Also, the continued post work done and still be completed by the staff at Matrix Games is to be applauded. It is rare to see a non-online game continue to receive the level of support that Forge of Freedom continues to receive.

Ok, now that the platitudes are out of the way, some questions, comments, and suggestions about the mechanics of the game.

1. Artillery. I am having a hard time with the way artillery ranges. Right now, if I have a brigade with Napoleons, my range abilities are 7 hexes. If I’m an infantry brigade, my range is at least 5 hexes if I have most of the weapons that post cede the musket. In my past experience playing other civil war tactical games, the artillery would usually outshoot infantry by a 1 to 4 margin. This was especially true if the artillery unit was elevated firing down on an infantry unit on a lower plane. In real life, having been in the army and having served in both infantry and armor, the range of artillery has always superseded anything else on the ground in a fight (of course, it is mostly fired indirect). Now, I’m not an artillery expert from the civil war, but I would have to believe that artillery could and would shot further than a Springfield rifle, even in direct mode.

2. Skirmishers. I have yet to find a use for these. Every time I have tried to find an effective use for them, they perform so subpar to a similar unit in line formation. I have tried setting them up in urban hexes or forest hexes with lackluster results. Even units with two sharpshooter attributes fail to impress. Am I doing something wrong here? I know I need to do more research my self by turning on the battle reporting in the detailed combat to see what factors are being taken into account, but my experience to date has been that they serve little tactical use if any given their current employment.

3. Forts and Garrisons. How do I get reinforcements to the brigades in garrison? Playing as CFA, I’ve broken sieges on forts only to have to replace the garrisons with fresh brigades due to the fact that the current brigades garrisoned don’t ever seen to receive reinforcements. My work around has been to pull the old garrison out, attach them to a division in a province with a hospital and telegraph, and to set the divisions supply to a higher status. Is there another way to get reinforcements to the garrisons once a siege has been lifted?

4. AI Garrisons in Cities. I’ve noticed that the AI replaces garrisons in captured cities the same turn the city is captured. Are they detaching a brigade out of the capturing army? Or is this a quirk the AI gets to balance the out the game play? Just curious?

5. Battle Experience. In my most recent game playing the CFA, I noticed in the battle report tab, the USA would receive +15 points to experience on a ratio of 5 to 1 compared to the CFA. I figured there were random algorithms running in the background, but the randomness here was a bit off in my humble opinion. Maybe the difficulty level had something to do with this? I was playing on 1st SGT I believe.

6. Entrenchment. If you a unit builds an entrenchment then moves out of the hex and returns, is the entrenchment bonus still applied? Also, if another unit other than the original unit constructing the entrenchment moves into a hex with an entrenchment, will the benefit from the improvement?

7. Entrenchment indicators. Sometimes, depending on the unit, the terrain, or other factors, it is difficult to discern if an entrenchment has happened. This is especially true in cases where there are rocks in the terrain. As a suggestion, in the unit information screen used during detailed combat, can an indicator be added to designate if a unit is currently receiving an entrenchment bonus or is in an entrenched position given their current facing?

8. Supply Caissons and Defender Garrisons in detailed combat. When you engage one of these, there are casualties associated with the engagement. (Example, Cavalry brigade charges supply caisson, inflicting 302 casualties) Where are these troops coming from? Are they a compilation of the brigades present by either side? Are they coming out of a strategic reserve that is subtracted from your camp generation at the end of a turn prior to reinforcements being delivered? Just curious.

9. Brigade Leader Assignment. I know as of now, or at least I think I know that you can’t assign leaders to brigades. You can assign them to the division, and the AI will automatically assign them to brigades during combat, but is there a way to ensure a certain 1 star general gets assigned to a certain brigade? Also, if I have a division commander already assigned and I want to ensure each brigade in an upcoming battle has a general, do I still need a separate general for each brigade in the division? Or one less the total number of divisions, given that the division commander will cover down on the last brigade?

10. Rivers. A suggestion for future updates, in the detailed battle, make some of the rivers bigger. I live in Virginia, actually right outside of Fredericksburg. I’ve grown up around the Rappahannock river for a good portion of my life. Now, the river today is nothing compared to what it was back in the 1860s, but it is still a pretty wide river. When the union tried crossing it in the winter of 62, they basically had to shell and level the town of Fredericksburg just to give their engineers the ability to make the pontoon bridges. The CFA sharpshooters were taking that much of a tool on the bridge builders. Just a thought. They wouldn’t all have to be large rivers, but I would like to see a difference between a creek and a river.

11. Lastly, saving the game during a detailed battle. I’ve noticed that if I save a game in the middle of a detailed fight, I can be on one of my units within a division, but when I reload, it appears that at least one if not multiple computer units automatically get an initiative check and make a move prior to me being able to start back up from where I saved. Not sure if this is intentional or not, but just an observation.


Anyway, I’m still getting the hang of the game. I’ve completed my first full war with the CFA, playing the Coming Fury Balanced Econ scenario, and I’ve done 3 or 4 incursions playing the USA that have lasted at least 2 years in length. Having just won the fight with the CFA, my plan is to start a new game with the USA at a higher difficulty level.

Once again, great game Matrix!

Thanks

Sabotteur



Walloc -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 1:51:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabotteur


1. Artillery. I am having a hard time with the way artillery ranges. Right now, if I have a brigade with Napoleons, my range abilities are 7 hexes. If I’m an infantry brigade, my range is at least 5 hexes if I have most of the weapons that post cede the musket. In my past experience playing other civil war tactical games, the artillery would usually outshoot infantry by a 1 to 4 margin. This was especially true if the artillery unit was elevated firing down on an infantry unit on a lower plane. In real life, having been in the army and having served in both infantry and armor, the range of artillery has always superseded anything else on the ground in a fight (of course, it is mostly fired indirect). Now, I’m not an artillery expert from the civil war, but I would have to believe that artillery could and would shot further than a Springfield rifle, even in direct mode.


Can i ask what version/ patch ur playing with?
The range of different weapon systems has been debated and corrected a few times.

quote:


2. Skirmishers. I have yet to find a use for these. Every time I have tried to find an effective use for them, they perform so subpar to a similar unit in line formation. I have tried setting them up in urban hexes or forest hexes with lackluster results. Even units with two sharpshooter attributes fail to impress. Am I doing something wrong here? I know I need to do more research my self by turning on the battle reporting in the detailed combat to see what factors are being taken into account, but my experience to date has been that they serve little tactical use if any given their current employment.


U get a bonus in forrest. Apart from that the main thing about skirmisher in terms of bonuses is they reduced casulties taken. also they reduce casulties given, to a lesser extent. The main use i find for them is, if u find ur self in a spot taking man fire casulties or opposing enemy art at short range skirmish formation offer excellent protextion. IIRC skirmish units takes 66% less casulties from art than a line.
So in short. i find them to be usefull mainly as a defensive formation and offensivly as a soak off formation. Protecting other formations.
Per say u dont get more out of the sharpshooter attributes in skirmish than in line. Actually since skirmish gives off less casulties than a line u prolly wouldnt notice much effect of the abilties on a skirmish formation. U would see the effect more from a line.

quote:



3. Forts and Garrisons. How do I get reinforcements to the brigades in garrison? Playing as CFA, I’ve broken sieges on forts only to have to replace the garrisons with fresh brigades due to the fact that the current brigades garrisoned don’t ever seen to receive reinforcements. My work around has been to pull the old garrison out, attach them to a division in a province with a hospital and telegraph, and to set the divisions supply to a higher status. Is there another way to get reinforcements to the garrisons once a siege has been lifted?


Again this was changed through out the patches so would be easier to answer if i knew what version. Any how.
U dont per say control reinforcements. What happens is that the containers with the highest supply level usually get reinforcements first. Since u cant control supply level of a fort. Best way to fast get those units up to par. Is move them out to a container with high supply level. They will eventually get reinforments but depedning on version perhapse only after the "field" army is near full strength

quote:



4. AI Garrisons in Cities. I’ve noticed that the AI replaces garrisons in captured cities the same turn the city is captured. Are they detaching a brigade out of the capturing army? Or is this a quirk the AI gets to balance the out the game play? Just curious?


As far as i know they detach bde's.

quote:



5. Battle Experience. In my most recent game playing the CFA, I noticed in the battle report tab, the USA would receive +15 points to experience on a ratio of 5 to 1 compared to the CFA. I figured there were random algorithms running in the background, but the randomness here was a bit off in my humble opinion. Maybe the difficulty level had something to do with this? I was playing on 1st SGT I believe.

It has to do with casulties. The more casulties the more +15 XP, but yes a degree of uncertainty is build in. I've personally checked this over several games and it does even out to where it should be. If u look at enough battles.

quote:



6. Entrenchment. If you a unit builds an entrenchment then moves out of the hex and returns, is the entrenchment bonus still applied? Also, if another unit other than the original unit constructing the entrenchment moves into a hex with an entrenchment, will the benefit from the improvement?

Yup, do notice an entrenchment only points to 1 hex side.

quote:



8. Supply Caissons and Defender Garrisons in detailed combat. When you engage one of these, there are casualties associated with the engagement. (Example, Cavalry brigade charges supply caisson, inflicting 302 casualties) Where are these troops coming from? Are they a compilation of the brigades present by either side? Are they coming out of a strategic reserve that is subtracted from your camp generation at the end of a turn prior to reinforcements being delivered? Just curious.


They are free, in the sense u dont lose any thing from any of ur bde's or any where else.
Yes this means supply wagons can be used for soak off attacks. On the other hand u will lose ur supply wagons in the battle if u do. Losing supply can have serious effects.

quote:


9. Brigade Leader Assignment. I know as of now, or at least I think I know that you can’t assign leaders to brigades. You can assign them to the division, and the AI will automatically assign them to brigades during combat, but is there a way to ensure a certain 1 star general gets assigned to a certain brigade? Also, if I have a division commander already assigned and I want to ensure each brigade in an upcoming battle has a general, do I still need a separate general for each brigade in the division? Or one less the total number of divisions, given that the division commander will cover down on the last brigade?


They way to get general assigned to each bde is to assing a division commander to a division and add X number of bde generals to taht division/container. Then in battle and this is the only way.
Use the G key. It takes a general from the current/activated unit and moves it to another bde. It has to be "general" free. In this way u can decided which goes where but has to be repeated every battle.
Notes. Generals not in command as a division commander only gives a bonus on firing. No command bonus from attached generals, only a division leader, corps leader and so on gives that. So there is an effect on putting a general on eahc bde its just not "that big"
Note 2. There has been a discussion on allowing bde generals to be attached to a bde, on the strategic map. Firstly it was seen as to much micro management and is the reason its not in the game. As i understand it. For the possible expansion this is being discussed. But i can neither promise a expansion nor that the feature if an expansion comes will be in there. I can just say it has been discussed.


Kind regards,

Rasmus



Sabotteur -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 2:03:52 PM)

Thanks Rasmus.

I'm playing with the Patch 1.9.23. So that should put things in perspective a bit better I hope.

Appreciate the feedback, espeacially the tip on the generals. Must have missed the 'G' key ability in the readme file of the patch notes. Will have to play with that one this weekend. From a historical standpoint, I was just having a hardtime watching Forrest get assigned to an artillery brigade while Pickett was being assigned to a Cavalry brigade.

I find it intersting that the forces that make up the supply caissons and the garrisons in the detailed battle are 'free troops' persay. I would guess then other than pushing up the casualty number on the will to fight metric and the detriment of not having supply caissons, there is no real point to waste effort on engaging these units. I've spent alot of time in detailed battles and taken a number of casualties trying to use my cavalry or fast moving infantry to isolate and destroy the enemy's supply caissons. Given that I have yet to fight a detail fight that has lasted over 3 days, I may give up this tactic and instead focus more on getting routed units to surrender in the enemy's rear.

v/r

Sabotteur



Walloc -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 2:10:22 PM)

Ok i think in the registred page of the members page u can find a newer version. 10.1.5 or some thing. That said weapon hasnt been changed between those 2 versions as i recall.

Well eliminating supply caison do have an effect. Once the enemy formation has used its supply and is out of supply they have half effect. That said my personal detailed battle tactics has always been going after capturing enemy troops. That way they dont come back to haunt me then [:D]
Capturing supply wagons been of no concern of mine, but i every one has their own style of play.
Yes using the G key has many uses. For example lets say Lee is posted in the most exposed bde u have. U can move him away to a safer position to avoid his death. I only very rarely loss corps commanders+ doing this. Some times u can even put them on ur own supply wagons for possible max protection.

Kind regards,

Rasmus



Erik Rutins -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 3:34:00 PM)

Sabotteur,

Regarding weapon ranges, we tried an internal version where artillery had its full range and there were some votes against it for two reasons - historical engagement ranges and AI use of long range weapons. In short, most artillery fire didn't occur at theoretical max ranges, though there are certainly some prominent exceptions. Second, the AI doesn't use the extra-long range as well as a human can, so it might be too big of a human advantage in tactical combat at present. I hope we can get those issues resolved and get the full ranges in there at some point in the future.

You should give the 1.10.9 Beta Update a try, it has some major improvements over 1.9.23. Thanks for the kind words about FOF.

Regards,

- Erik



ericbabe -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 4:49:11 PM)

Thanks for the kind words!

As Erik mentioned, we did try different ranges for the weapons.  I tend to argue more in favor of using actual battlefield data wherever we have found it -- I tend to agree with CW historian Paddy Griffith who has collected data showing that most CW battles were fought at much closer ranges than the theoretical ranges of the weapons the units were using (both for rifle and artillery ranges).  But we have experimented with longer artillery / shorter rifle ranges, with mixed beta-tester reactions.

As Walloc mentions, skirmishers are generally a defensive measure.  Skirmishers are more vulnerable to charges (though they have a chance to avoid charges from infantry, somewhat mitigating their vulnerability), but this can be offset if you deploy them in woods/villages -- and since skirmishers don't have the normal penalty for firing out of woods/villages, this isn't a bad place to put them as it can be with units that are not in skirmish order.  In addition to taking fewer casualties, skirmishers also take less morale damage.

Garrisons should automatically receive some reinforcements every turn in the newer version of the game, I believe.  I can't remember if this was the case in 1.9.x versions of the game.

A higher level of battle experience is awarded to lower-quality troops, to reflect the great jump in quality that comes after green troops see one or two actual battles.  The USA starts with many more green troops than the CSA and so has a higher amount of battle experience in terms of quality increases early in the game.  (A number of players were concerned about the apparent advantage the US has in terms of battle experience, but it's actually just an side-effect of the fact that the US starts with an experience disadvantage.)

Any unit in a hex with an entrenchment benefits from it, only from attacks across any sides that have the entrenchment.

Supply caissons come with their own defending troops, who have a weak defensive value.  Fort/city defenders are "free" militia-type troops that the defender receives from nearby forts/cities.

We've talked about adding larger rivers in future versions of the engine.  It would involve much work, but is one of those things that might be worth the work involved.  Historically there weren't that many battles fought across major rivers, but there were enough to justify it (some important ones in the Napoleonic era as well).







Sabotteur -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/1/2007 5:59:17 PM)

Thanks for the quick response from the staff...

Your all's responsiveness is greatly appreciated.

Interesting to hear about the justification for the ranges of the weapon systems in the detailed battle screen. I can see where either an AI or a human could manipulate the "rules" to their advantage. I would imagine this is one of the hardest parts of programing an AI within a game system. Once you figure out what the limitations are as a human player, it is hard not to exploit those to your advantage. The nice thing about playing another human is you eliminate the issue. Both people are on the same playing field at least from a rules standpoint. Maybe one of these days I'll get a decent high speed connection out to my farm in rural Virginia that will allow me to test my mettle against a human opponent.

Appreciate the clarification on the skirmishers. What has been said is pretty much in alignment with what my experience has been to date. I'll give them another shot the next time I'm required to defend in an urban setting.

As to garrisons, I'll definitly be downloading the beta patch before I start my next game.

Thanks again all for the comments and suggestions.

v/r

Sabotteur




jamespcrowley -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/4/2007 12:38:58 AM)

I take on-board the fact that the AI can't currently handle long-range fire very well (and also hope this can be remedied at some point in time) but I am also a little puzzled over the existing range profiles used by artillery.

All of the rifle/artillery weapons have seven potential range slots and some of them use all seven. So I am assuming that seven is regarded as short range, or at least not long range.

Why is it then that many of the artillery pieces use less than seven slots, despite the fact that in most, if not all, cases they could fire effectively out to at least double that range? I understand that as range increases, accuracy and therefore lethality, diminish but I would have thought that even at range seven (only 875 yds) they would all be capable of inflicting some damage.

For instance, I can understand that a 12pdr Whitworth can deal out 200% damage at range six (750 yds) but can't understand why a 12pdr Napoleon does no damage at all at that range, when it is capable of firing, effectively, up to 1600 yds



jchastain -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/4/2007 2:20:09 AM)

Also, just so that you know, while it isn't something I'd really recommend while first learning the game, it should be noted that it is possible to edit/customize weapon data to your liking if you want to experiment with different ranges on your own. 



Erik Rutins -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/4/2007 6:52:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
I take on-board the fact that the AI can't currently handle long-range fire very well (and also hope this can be remedied at some point in time) but I am also a little puzzled over the existing range profiles used by artillery.


It's not so much that the AI can't handle it as that a human can handle it much better.

quote:

Why is it then that many of the artillery pieces use less than seven slots, despite the fact that in most, if not all, cases they could fire effectively out to at least double that range? I understand that as range increases, accuracy and therefore lethality, diminish but I would have thought that even at range seven (only 875 yds) they would all be capable of inflicting some damage.


I'm not aware of any artillery pieces having less than seven range, at least not in the current release. Are you playing an unpatched version?

We have a gun file that has all the realistic ranges and we may go ahead and provide that along with a exe that can handle it and post those in the Members Club for those who want to give the extended ranges a try.

Regards,

- Erik



jamespcrowley -> RE: A few random comments and questions.. (11/6/2007 1:13:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Crowley
I take on-board the fact that the AI can't currently handle long-range fire very well (and also hope this can be remedied at some point in time) but I am also a little puzzled over the existing range profiles used by artillery.


It's not so much that the AI can't handle it as that a human can handle it much better.

quote:

Why is it then that many of the artillery pieces use less than seven slots, despite the fact that in most, if not all, cases they could fire effectively out to at least double that range? I understand that as range increases, accuracy and therefore lethality, diminish but I would have thought that even at range seven (only 875 yds) they would all be capable of inflicting some damage.


I'm not aware of any artillery pieces having less than seven range, at least not in the current release. Are you playing an unpatched version?

We have a gun file that has all the realistic ranges and we may go ahead and provide that along with a exe that can handle it and post those in the Members Club for those who want to give the extended ranges a try.

Regards,

- Erik


Erik

I have the latest beta patch installed.

In the Military Advisor screen I see that Arty weapons do indeed use the provided seven slots, as you say.

However, when you hover the tooltip over the weapon in the unit screen it only shows six of the values ( at least for the 12 pdr Howitzer - the final 50 value is missing.

And of course these values are totally different to those in the appendix (which only shows three, different, values for the 12 pdr How) which is what I was referring to.

So presumably all of the weapons data for Arty in the Appendix is now out of kilter?



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