I knew I shouldn't have done it! (Full Version)

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Adam Parker -> I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 6:19:55 AM)

So I say I'm not going to buy the game and I buy it.

I load it up and the map pops up as a tiled window in the centre of my screen! Lots of Windows real estate all around...

I scroll through 6 pages of this forum to find a thread where someone else thought this odd. What the hell I register my game and go to downloads and see patch 1.10 - wow it gives me 1280x1024 resolution.

What no one at Matrix could sticky this information here: "Attention 2007 gamers if you buy this game and think it odd that it won't fill up your screen go here and download this patch". That would have been a nice courtesy.

I install the 44mb patch and voila! Now the game fills most of my screen - still not all even though I'm running 1280x1024 normally. "And btw gamers after you install the patch it still will not fill up all of your screen - happy gaming".

Still, I shrug, ok the game's running let's fool around.

But no! The game scrolls worse than my cell phone. I can't even get the map to scroll southwards at all! What happened to moving the mouse to the edge of the screen-type scrolling circa 1995?

So thats $34 for Hornet Leader than gives me the sensation of flying a brick, $45 for Advanced Tactics whose design is so advanced it can't handle map labels and $40 for this, that won't even scroll. Dare I suggest wheel mouse support...?

A good coupla weeks for Matrix from me.

Is there realy a Santa Claus?
Virginia.



Venator -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 7:50:20 AM)

The lack of scrolling is a bit irritating. But to my mind that is more than made up for by the actual gameplay. I'd rather have a well though out, deep game with graphic/interface quirks and irritations than something slick and shallow (Carriers at War, I'm looking at you...). Given also that it's been produced by one man who's continuing to give top quality support (unlike many other Matrix games, sadly) I'd say $40 was a fair enough price.

And it doesn't fill the screen? Is that really such a bad thing? I agree, at first I found it irritating but to be honest I hardly notice now.



EUBanana -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 8:01:40 AM)

Fills my screen...  but then I'm on 1024 x 720, being po'. Well, not entirely I spose, its still a window, theres a few mm either side.

And I dunno why people keep storming about the scrolling, I scroll wargames with the cursor keys anyway, always have done.  Didnt even realise you couldn't use the mouse until I saw the complaints.



HobbesACW -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 2:15:22 PM)

I also find the lack of scrolling very irritating. I have put off playing the game hoping that a patch would fix this
but I have been very surprised by the lack of comments on this issue.

Cheers, Chris



Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 3:39:38 PM)

Yes Hobbes. I'm actually quite disappointed that these issues weren't stickied here. I mean what does the designer want? Pissed off gamers or those who by true caveat emptor, wish to support him as he brings his vision to fruition?

I mean to load a brand new game up and see it sit in a minimised window on a desktop without any means of resizing it is just pathetic. To hide the issue is bordering on the cowardly.

Anyway, I also note that someone edited my first post above phantomly. OK they took a reference out regarding the Matrix-approved retail outlet where I bough the game. The only true war gaming shop in Australia. But it was a pretty stupid thing to do since I also helped sell a copy of "Battleground" to another consumer whilst I was there.

I see Matrix more and more now as a dumping ground for prototypes and poor re-releases of games and it's such a shame as to me they pioneered digital downloading and brought back the printed manual. Awesome things for the hobby.



HobbesACW -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 6:33:52 PM)

You sound as obsessive about such things as myself Adam. The screen size did bug me and I tried to find a wallpaper to use as a background
before I realised (duh!) that the icons would still show. It's fine with me now as it occupies almost the whole screen.

The only things that bug me now are the scrolling and the shape of England. I've read that the game is very good but I have no time to play at the moment (due to other games) I'm just hoping at least the scrolling is fixed and somebody (maybe me eventually) will make a map where the countries actually look accurate (especially southern England).

Cheers, Chris





MarkShot -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 10:01:51 PM)

I suspect that the lack of mouse border scroll has to do with the fact that you are playing in a window as opposed to full screen. This makes scrolling issues more complicated, since you usually need to deal with capturing the mouse and releasing the mouse in the game window. Of course, there are some standard options:

(1) Click in the game window captures the mouse.
(2) Either have have a release area to click or hot key to release the mouse.
(3) You mouse grab on the map and scrolling by holding down one of the three buttons and moving the mouse.

Yes, in this day of gaming, not providing mouse based scrolling is a bit odd. Although I would not consider it a show stopper. However, it is already widely known that I play lots of old DOS games and play Harpoon 3. So, non-standard interfaces don't scare me.

As long as we are talking UIs, I prefer drag and drop for counter movement as opposed to click and click again. I find the AGEOD style of counter movement much more intuitive. (NOTE: Bias disclosure - I am an AGEOD beta tester.)



TheHellPatrol -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 10:15:23 PM)

Wow, some strong statements there Adam. In all honesty it's not the first time i've heard complaints from fellow Matrix customers who are, like me, sitting on a pile of games that are waiting to be patched[:(]. GoA does seem designed for an archaic OS and i don't know if it'll ever work for everyone.
I keep asking myself the same questions, in fact LarryP and i laugh about how many beta patches we are waiting on...it seems we buy the games only to go play something else while we wait...alas(i am not alone in this) the patch finally comes but the desire is gone...poof[8|].



Hanal -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 11:07:18 PM)

If I lost the desire to play a game because I was awaiting the next patch, then I guess I would not play any of my games!...[;)]....In all seriousness, it all comes down to whether or not the patch is needed to fix "gamebreaker" conditions which I believe is not the case with GoA.

I will also add that this little debate brings up the hoary issue of release dates. How much whining, moaning, groaning, and generally abusive catterwalling would be flooding the GoA forum, if Frank had still did not released the game because he was hunting (no pun intended) for every concevable bug?  Beta-testers can only do and find so much before there comes a point when the game need to get out there. So I for one am grateful that I have been able to play the game now and will simply take the patches as they come.



06 Maestro -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/3/2007 11:53:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

...it seems we buy the games only to go play something else while we wait...alas(i am not alone in this) the patch finally comes but the desire is gone...poof[8|].


Yes, yes, no, you are not alone.

There was a song; "you lost that lovin feeling, now it's gone, gone, gone" circa '69 (Gary Puckett- if instant call/flashback is working). This could be the theme song for a gamer's support group.



MikePalmer -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 1:37:08 AM)

Gary Puckett!? And the Union Gap? NFW!!!!!

Righteous Brothers!!!!!



LarryP -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 2:01:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHellPatrol

...it seems we buy the games only to go play something else while we wait...alas(i am not alone in this) the patch finally comes but the desire is gone...poof[8|].


Yes, yes, no, you are not alone.

There was a song; "you lost that lovin feeling, now it's gone, gone, gone" circa '69 (Gary Puckett- if instant call/flashback is working). This could be the theme song for a gamer's support group.


Hey Anthony, Elliott and Adam! Every time I mention that a game is lacking a feature, like an Exit option on menus, I get ganged up on and made to think I am a retard for wanting a change for the better! It's like I am supposed to weigh all the good against the bad and if there are enough good ones, forget even mentioning a change. So I am keeping quiet on this one and will continue to sit on this pile of "waiting on another patch" pile of games. [:'(] [:D] [>:]



06 Maestro -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 2:05:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MikePalmer

Gary Puckett!? And the Union Gap? NFW!!!!!

Righteous Brothers!!!!!



Well, it's not like I just downloaded thier software...
The R Br's popped into mind shortly after the post-wasn't sure.



MarkShot -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 2:51:32 AM)

In another thread, I spoke about having games installed that are classics with either a collection of scenarios that would take years to get through or dynamic campaign facilities. I got, at least, 10 games where each one could keep me engaged for years. So, these days its rare that a game get released that really makes me feel any sense of urgency to buy it.

Today, I have been playing more of the old DOS Classic, 1830 (from the early 1990s). In my opinion, the single best strategy game ever made. I am up to about 300 games played so far this year. I win about 50% and am still working on improving that. If ever I do improve that, then the engine has lots of variant options. I've already programmed a variant randomizer to really challenge myself if I get up to 90% on the primary game settings.

Well, my point is this. I don't understand why people rush out to buy new games and whine about being dissappointed. For any set of tastes (if you don't care about release dates), there should be a handful of classics that could engage a serious gamer for years. If I never saw a new title, I am going to be completely amused with what I have for the rest of my life. I think a lot of people just love the novelty of a new release ... in a way it is like an addiction or like men who find a lifetime of fidelity impossible to face.

Now, I realize if everyone felt like me, the market might just dry up or, at least, developers would be forced to deliver measurable advances over previous titles. So, my suggestion is find that core set classic games and enjoy them. And from time to time, after only a lot of careful reflection, get something new (not necessarily just released; for me a few years old is still new) that is worthy of adding to your collection. Unless you compete online, you'll end up buying games which a fully completed, known and proven quantities (often new games have bogus good reviews), lots of strategy material online, lots of third party content online, and probably selling for 30-50% of the release price, and will likely run quite smoothly on your computer if it is not too old. It's simply a win, win, win, ... situation.



LarryP -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 4:28:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Well, my point is this. I don't understand why people rush out to buy new games and whine about being dissappointed.


When you bought those older games, did you expect them to work properly for your money spent?



MarkShot -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 4:36:38 AM)

Yes, because when I bought them, they were already old. There were to be no more patches. So, I had a good idea what I was buying.

Also, whether new or used, I got the games for $2-15. In many cases, the major cost was the shipping.

There were a couple of real losers I bought as older games. One that comes to mind is RAA - Rails Across America from Flying Labs Software. I spent $2 on that. Didn't seem necessary to whining about that.



SMK-at-work -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:06:47 AM)

Do you buy games so they can fill the screen and scroll......or do you buy them for content?

There have ben any number of comments about the clunky interface & screen resolutions....but ultimately it's not going to change much, and the game is still one of the best despite that.

Content wins IMO.



MarkShot -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:15:23 AM)

Me I buy games for game play. Thus, I am playing games like Aces of the Deep.

I have no real issue with the scrolling, I was only pointing out why scrolling tends to be more complex windowed than full screen.

The UI GOA is okay for me. I was just pointing out that there is no reason to feel taken advantage of. There are enough quality games out there that if something is not right for you, it should be fairly easy not to buy it in the first place.

Although I received GOA as a gift, I am fairly happy I did and that I decided to keep it. Sooner or later I am going to sit down to play it seriously. It looks like a well constructed piece of work.



jimwinsor -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:53:45 AM)

OK, the scrolling is bad in this game. All are agreed on that. For some, the problem is more of a deal killer than to others. Check.

So, my question is...how difficult would it be to develop a "smooth scrolling" patch?  Is that a technically feasible possibility here?



Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:58:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Do you buy games so they can fill the screen and scroll......or do you buy them for content?



Both. In fact, I buy games for 3 reasons:

1. UI - intuitiveness, auto-scrolling, utility and elegance.
2. Content - epochs that grab me, educate me and fill a market void.
3. Immersion - suspension of reality, playing the game rather than the game "playing" me.

Kudos SMK as someone who has the time to struggle with clicks and key punches that in 2007 should now be out of place.

To suggest that "good content" implies and even forgives programming ineptness (and developer ignorance) when it comes to UI's and user-friendliness, is just ridiculous.

Hey why proof read books? Forget the typos. It's the content that counts? [8|]



Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 6:15:45 AM)

As a general follow up to my first post.

In purchasing GoA I believed I exercized full due diligence in knowing what I was receiving. Following the recent discussion here and reading AAR's I expected:

1. The only WW1 strategic PC game on the market.
 
2. Some serious bugs affecting long term play that had been corrected by the designer and awaiting a patch due soon but not of a capacity to prevent me learning the game.
 
3. Superb game play with a gutsy AI.
 
4. The ability to alter starting positions with each play.
 
5. Economic management without the need for micromanagement.
 
6. An interface that through patching was no longer out of date or "cluncky".

In none of my research did I come across any references to a game screen that on first install would measure 12 inches diagonally on a 19 inch screen and 18 inches diagonally after patching. Nor a game that couldn't scroll because its mouse-scrolling programming was faulty.

Just as in Advanced Tactics did I not come across any mention of an AI turn that simply gives the player a blank screen! Nor a map that couldn't handle map labels.

Just as in Hornet Leader did I not come across any mention of the inability to exit the game during play!

In every case these "design decisions" and "developer concession" were burried or not mentioned at all.

So yes. I feel vindicated in defining these as a poor show.

I'm not whinning. I gave due dilligence. If Matrix wishes its consumers to post before purchasing: "Hey guys what are the really stupid design decisions in this development?" So be it.

Happy Windowing,
Adam.



TexHorns -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 7:12:08 AM)

Call me a cynic but when I purchase a new game I immediatley go the game website, search for and download patches before playing my first game. I just expect that any new game I purchase, whether from Matrix or not, is going to require patches. Since I expect it, it doesn't bother me that I need to.

I am in the camp who believe that although annoying that the game doesn't fill the screen, the game play more than makes up for it. In fact once I start playing, I'm so engrossed that I don't notice it.



Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 7:29:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns

I am in the camp who believe that although annoying that the game doesn't fill the screen, the game play more than makes up for it. In fact once I start playing, I'm so engrossed that I don't notice it.


Annoying? Here's the thing. In what other game has this ever hapened to you before, let alone a 21st Century game?

Of course we go and patch. Who doesn't know to expect that?

But in cases like GoA, there's this whole period of utter stupification where for 10 minutes a new player looks for the Windows 3.1 Maximise button and then when he can't find one and picks himself up of the floor, looks for a Sticky thread and when he can't find one - by fluke finds out that there's unbelievably a patch to address the issue, he goes to play and then finds the mouse scrolling broken!

Surely I've made myself clear by now? This design decision is so ridiculous, so atrociously unique, at least do me the courtesy of not hiding it but alerting me to it. Then I can decide if I want to give my money to you.

Isn't that fair?



MarkShot -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 8:52:44 AM)

I have to say that I find game reviews fairly suspect these days.

Here is an interesting exercise. Go to any game site and go back 3-5 years and read the reviews for that year of released game. Now, by the present day, you should know the games that were reviewed quite well. You should know if they were lemons or gems. You should know if the the games every got completed. You should know if they had staying power and replayability. As they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Now, I bet you that you will find that the game reviews will tend to be mainly positive and gloss over what would be show stopper issues for many games which in retrospect were lemons or at best mediocre offerings. Sadly, reading reviews leaves a lot to be desired.

Like I said that's why I am not in hurry to pick up new titles. If they are truly gems, they will not lose their luster after a year or two.

In any case, I apologize if it appeared that I was being especially critical of you, Adam. I am sorry. I meant to say that generally consumers also have a role to play in purchasing products which they ultimately consider to be substandard.

Lastly, I am talking about games, developers, publishers, and customers in the general sense. My comments are not directed specifically at GOA, Frank Hunter, Matrix, and/or Adam Parker.



Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 8:14:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Lastly, I am talking about games, developers, publishers, and customers in the general sense. My comments are not directed specifically at GOA, Frank Hunter, Matrix, and/or Adam Parker.


No offense taken at all Mark, I agree with you sentiments completely.

In fact the "reviews" that sway me towards a game now are purely player reviews.

It was the consumer feedback here that sold me on the game, especially comments along the lines that the original challenges with the UI were no more.

Unfortunately GoA finds itself synonymous with "bad UI" just as Ron Dockall and his Russio-German War franchise is currently labelled amongst the game buying public. That's what kept be from buying GoA for so long.

It's a no brainer that if people want a WW1 PC strategy game, this is it. But it's an "it" with a twist.

I was overjoyed to see posts that the twist was apparently no more.



SMK-at-work -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 12:56:53 PM)

quote:

To suggest that "good content" implies and even forgives programming ineptness (and developer ignorance) when it comes to UI's and user-friendliness, is just ridiculous.


I'm certainly not suggesting that good content implies programming ineptness of anything!![8|]  But there are plenty of games around with fabulous UI's and all the depth of a mud puddle........this game has it the other way around.

I see nothign wrong with forgiving such shortcomings as a game has in light of its strengths.  If you're not prepared to do that hten how do you justify anythign at all?  Nothing is perfect so you'd always be complaining about any errors regardless of how good the rest of it was.

I'm much more willing to forgive a clunky UI for a great game than I am a crappy game with a slick UI.....because I'm simply not interested in a crappy game regardless of the UI.





Adam Parker -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 2:21:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

I'm much more willing to forgive a clunky UI for a great game than I am a crappy game with a slick UI.....because I'm simply not interested in a crappy game regardless of the UI.



I can accept that.

Just have developers let the consumer know of a game's significant failings beforehand.

Like I said, a courteous Sticky thread on this forum would have saved me the shock and time of what I've experienced.



Sardonic -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:29:50 PM)

I thought the accuracy of the simulation was what was important



LarryP -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 5:42:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker

In none of my research did I come across any references to a game screen that on first install would measure 12 inches diagonally on a 19 inch screen and 18 inches diagonally after patching. Nor a game that couldn't scroll because its mouse-scrolling programming was faulty.

Just as in Hornet Leader did I not come across any mention of the inability to exit the game during play!

Adam.


I posted this scroll problem before the first patch and it did not get fixed with the patch.

As far as exiting from Hornet Leader during game play, go read the replies I got when I complained about this. Wait, did I say replies? I meant excuses. Now I DO have to give some credit here to the developer because now they are considering doing this in the next patch. Had I kept my mouth shut, who knows.

To all of you that settle for all the problems NOT fixed: The next time you buy a new car and the electric window on the drivers side won't work, hey, it's got a good engine and it gets good gas mileage, so just keep your pie hole shut!

I don't understand why all of us CONSUMERS are not on the same side?! [&:]



Erik Rutins -> RE: I knew I shouldn't have done it! (11/4/2007 6:31:26 PM)

Adam,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adam Parker
I scroll through 6 pages of this forum to find a thread where someone else thought this odd. What the hell I register my game and go to downloads and see patch 1.10 - wow it gives me 1280x1024 resolution.
What no one at Matrix could sticky this information here: "Attention 2007 gamers if you buy this game and think it odd that it won't fill up your screen go here and download this patch". That would have been a nice courtesy.


I find this a bit unfair. We posted a press release and a site announcement when the patch was made available. That announcement is still pinned in this forum. All our games have their patches listed in the Latest Download section and on each game's page under downloads. I think it's standard practice for most gamers to check one of those areas for a patch before they start playing a game.

We've also been posting once or twice a week regarding the 1.2 public beta updates.

quote:

I install the 44mb patch and voila! Now the game fills most of my screen - still not all even though I'm running 1280x1024 normally. "And btw gamers after you install the patch it still will not fill up all of your screen - happy gaming".


That's odd, it fills up my screen - can you post a screenshot of how much extra space you've got?

quote:

But no! The game scrolls worse than my cell phone. I can't even get the map to scroll southwards at all! What happened to moving the mouse to the edge of the screen-type scrolling circa 1995?


This game really requires the arrow keys to scroll. I agree, that is a pain and it's on Frank's list to address, but it's a minor issue in the scheme of things. I hope the scrolling will be improved soon - in the meantime, you've got some great gameplay and very workable arrow key scrolling.

quote:

So thats $34 for Hornet Leader than gives me the sensation of flying a brick, $45 for Advanced Tactics whose design is so advanced it can't handle map labels and $40 for this, that won't even scroll. Dare I suggest wheel mouse support...?


I'm not sure why you are so down on HL - I read your post that it crashed on you once, but assumed that was an isolated occurrence. If it's crashing regularly (it has never crashed on the three systems I've tested it on) then that's a serious issue and we'll either fix it or refund your money. We don't expect you to pay for a game that doesn't work on your system. HL itself is an inexpensive and fun adaptation of the classic HL card game and I think it does that quite well and provides a lot of replayability and some interesting campaigns.

However, I saw your post on AT and I just can't understand how you can dismiss an entire game because it doesn't do map labels the way you like. The locations have names which are shown on mouse-over or click, so it's not as if there are no labels. Also, the labels show up on the strategic overview screen. Finally, the developer heard your request and is looking into it. Note that AT is getting raves from other gamers and being reviewed very positively as a flexible and fun game. I have not heard from anyone else that the lack of always visible map labels was a game-breaker.

I'm sorry you're disappointed in your last few purchases, but I think that they deserve a second look from what I've seen of your criticisms so far. Let me know if I can help.

Regards,

- Erik



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