RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (Full Version)

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Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 10:08:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

It depends on what I'm trying to portray but essentially they are both internment camps.



Ok, in the Swedish language, there is a huge difference between a concentration camp and an internment camp. Apparently there is no such difference in the english language.



Dixie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 10:15:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85

It depends on what I'm trying to portray but essentially they are both internment camps.



Ok, in the Swedish language, there is a huge difference between a concentration camp and an internment camp. Apparently there is no such difference in the english language.


The differences in the English language have only come about in the post-war era as nations tried to distance themselves from the image of the German concentration camps. The British government still used the term concentration camp during the Malayan emergency, probably the last usage of the term in it's original context.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 10:16:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
The problem with your theory is that Sweden did not imprison just enemy combatants. It imprisoned noncombatant ethnic Germans, some of whom were in the nation before the war, solely because they were ethnically German. That makes Sweden's camps ethnic internment camps every bit as much as the American ones.


We have been over this three times already, so why not make it four..
A German citizen found illegaly in Sweden will be apprehended by the authorities and put in a refugee camp, until it can be decided whether to eject him out of the country or whether to grant him asylum.

The key factor here is his citizenship, not his ethnicity. Had he been a Swedish citizen he would not have been put in a refugee camp, nor would he have been put in an internment camp, nor would he have been put in jail (unless he had broken the law).

We imprisoned enemy combatants in internment camps, we "imprisoned" enemy refugees in refugee camps. At no point in time did we ever have or operate concentration camps (barring of cource our slave camps in the Gold coast of africa..but that was in the 17th century, so I think we can ignore those for now).


quote:

It was only in those nations that collaborated with Germany (Sweden, Switzerland) that being an allied combatant landed you in jail.

I dont know where you get your information, but we didnt put US or UK airmen in jail. We put them in internment camps. This is something that all neutral nations with some sort of territorial integrity does.

quote:

No one here's gonna say that locking people up for being Japanese-American was a good idea in general.


I think we should wait until doggie arrives to see if thats true or not.


quote:

In Tucson, Arizona, for example, which is 409 miles, two mountain ranges, and one vast stinking desert removed from the nearest usable port (San Diego, California), the local Civil Defense Council crafted a plan to evacuate the local civilian population into the Santa Catalina mountains (no joke), and drilled Civil Defense Wardens on Japanese aircraft recognition, on the theory that somehow the IJA or IJAAF would find a way to roll into or over Tucson in force.

What they'd have done once they'd all "escaped" to the Santa Catalinas beats me. Starved to death probably. But in any case there wasn't an ice-cube's chance in hell that a Japanese *squad* much less an army was going to land in Hawaii, much less Tucson. War hysteria will do that sort of thing.


[:D] Now that was funny as heck.



mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 10:40:13 PM)

quote:

Sure there were instiutionalised barbarism in Japan, Germany and Russia during ww2. Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in Italy and Great Britain in the pre-war years. Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.


PH:

Despite framing it in such a way that you thought for sure only 3 nations qualified, how do you dance away from the fact that Canada did the exact same thing as the US for ostensibly the same reason?

"Good old freedom loving US of A (& Canada)". Just doesn't have the same impact.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_Canadian_internment

I use wiki as the source just for fun. It's a fairly well known fact. I'm surprised you didn't stumble upon it while researching HoI. [:'(]



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 11:07:40 PM)

I had no idea Canada did it too. Shame on Canada aswell then.



mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/28/2007 11:22:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I had no idea Canada did it too. Shame on Canada aswell then.



Fair enough. Hopefully it might open the door for you to consider that this was done for military reasons related to the West Coast, that we share with Canada, rather than a desire to remove Japanese Americans from society. However misguided and poorly implimented said policy may have been.

This was a big issue back in the 80s over here. Not surprising it wasn't big news in Sweden.

quote:

On September 22, 1988, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney gave a long-awaited formal apology and the Canadian government began a significant compensation package, one month after President Ronald Reagan made similar gestures in the United States. The package for interned Japanese Canadians included $21,000 to all surviving internees, and the re-instatement of Canadian citizenship to those who were deported to Japan.[12]



martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:02:53 AM)

Generally I have been with Panzerjaeger on most points. I would like to add one thing however about more recent US attitudes to the internment (or whatever) of people of Japanese ethnicity during the war. The book (which I read), and subsequent film (which I didn't see, but which was well reviewed), "Snow Falling on Cedars", did deal with both the pain of internment and with the additional injustices that could accompany it, such as theft of property. It was a complex book, well-received in the US as elsewhere. I know from friends, that because the US is so huge, the level of knowledge of different aspects of domestic history can vary hugely.

Strangely, I saw a film, when I was young (so not too long after the War!), that was about a unit of Japanese-American soldiers, their training, adventures, and prowess. Feelings were obviously very complicated, even then. I think these soldiers did, in reality, fight in Italy, though I'm not sure.

I think the biggest worry about the whole situation, how it is remembered, and some of the inflammatory (and sometimes racist) comments made during this thread is that history has a habit of repeating itself. Even if we can view internment (which happened in the UK also) now with some perspective, our knee-jerk responses to more recent events suggests that maybe governments and their electorates haven't learned as much as one might have hoped.



06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:05:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

quote:

In Tucson, Arizona, for example, which is 409 miles, two mountain ranges, and one vast stinking desert removed from the nearest usable port (San Diego, California), the local Civil Defense Council crafted a plan to evacuate the local civilian population into the Santa Catalina mountains (no joke), and drilled Civil Defense Wardens on Japanese aircraft recognition, on the theory that somehow the IJA or IJAAF would find a way to roll into or over Tucson in force.

What they'd have done once they'd all "escaped" to the Santa Catalinas beats me. Starved to death probably. But in any case there wasn't an ice-cube's chance in hell that a Japanese *squad* much less an army was going to land in Hawaii, much less Tucson. War hysteria will do that sort of thing.


[:D] Now that was funny as heck.


I agree with you that is funny, however, it is the truth. My parents both lived in San Diego, CA (life long residents). The things they told me about the fear of Japanese landings seemed comical-25 years after the war. Marines and soldiers were deployed along the coast, actually preparing battle positions on the beaches-this was no joke. It is easy for us to look back and say that was silly. The fact is that it was not silly at the time-it was deadly serious; a matter of national survival. I don't think there is any need to re-hash the Japanese military and naval exploits during the 1st few months of the war; suffice to say that it was very impressive and frightening.

It is also a fact that Japanese Americans were engaging in espionage-many radio intercepts were made. For months, authorities tried to get various leaders in the Japanese community to put an end to these activities-they could not do so, for whatever reason. The following action of moving them to internment camps (camps where they would be safe, well treated, and out of mischief) until the end of hostilities was a well founded plan of action. I have little doubt that the vast majority of those people had no intention of being saboteurs, but there were plenty of them that did. Remember that by Japanese law they were still citizens of Japan. Given the atrocious way in which Japan opened hostilities, there was little feeling of sympathy for any of them. Sadly, some were 3rd generation Americans and could care less about helping Japan, but there was no time for niceties. It should be noted that there was a very real danger to Japanese people from regular civilians-yes, there was hate. It may be impossible for some highly civilized modern humans to understand this, but the hate was real-and for real reasons.

In hindsight, I think that the Japanese should have been filtered better after the movement away from sensitive areas. It could have been possible to release many much sooner than what actually occurred. The personal property and business assets should also have been safeguarded somehow. As many of them lost their property during their internment, they should have been paid for any losses as soon as possible after the war.

So, now you can point your haughty finger at me as an archaic man-I don't care. What I do care about is that the leaders of this nation 65 years ago had the courage and wisdom to do what was needed to be done in order to prevent defeat by a monstrous enemy. Did the U.S. government make some mistakes? Well, I guess so, but it did not have the advantage of having enlightened peacenik, feel-good attorney's planning the prosecution of a war. A war which was finished in 3 1/2 years of U.S. participation vs the 5 years of playing games in the sand box. War is horrible for all concerned-it is better to do what is necessary to end it as soon as possible. This by no means justifies slaughtering innocent/unarmed people, regardless of status.

Here are a few more considerations for camp definitions.
An interment camp holds people for specific reasons for the duration of a war.
POW camps hold people for as long as the capturing power wants-just ask the Soviet Union, France, United Kingdom, or Vietnam.
Concentration camps/gulags hold people for any reason, for any period of time.



Knuckles_85 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:16:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mart

Generally I have been with Panzerjaeger on most points. I would like to add one thing however about more recent US attitudes to the internment (or whatever) of people of Japanese ethnicity during the war. The book (which I read), and subsequent film (which I didn't see, but which was well reviewed), "Snow Falling on Cedars", did deal with both the pain of internment and with the additional injustices that could accompany it, such as theft of property. It was a complex book, well-received in the US as elsewhere. I know from friends, that because the US is so huge, the level of knowledge of different aspects of domestic history can vary hugely.

Strangely, I saw a film, when I was young (so not too long after the War!), that was about a unit of Japanese-American soldiers, their training, adventures, and prowess. Feelings were obviously very complicated, even then. I think these soldiers did, in reality, fight in Italy, though I'm not sure.

I think the biggest worry about the whole situation, how it is remembered, and some of the inflammatory (and sometimes racist) comments made during this thread is that history has a habit of repeating itself. Even if we can view internment (which happened in the UK also) now with some perspective, our knee-jerk responses to more recent events suggests that maybe governments and their electorates haven't learned as much as one might have hoped.


So in other words your knowledge of the situation is from a movie? Here read the book Amanche by Robert Harvey (My wife's uncle and historian) and get back to us when you can contribute something useful. By the way no one seems to be shedding a tear for the Germans and Italians that were interned. Why?



mdiehl -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:55:38 AM)

Ok, in the Swedish language, there is a huge difference between a concentration camp and an internment camp.

quote:

Apparently there is no such difference in the english language.


That would only be "apparent" to a person with an ethnocentric agenda.

In English, the phrase for "concentration camp" is "concentration camp."
In English, the phrase for "internment camp" is "internment camp."

As noted before, the two phrases, which specifically differ in the use of the word "concentration" in the first instance, and "internment" in the second, convey a world of different motive, operation, and outcome. A "concentration camp" in the English language refers to a camp, typically one run by an Axis power, an Axis power ally, or an axis-power occupied puppet state, that interns people for the purpose of enforced labor, or merely on account of ethnicity, usually with the intention of the death of those interned, either through willful neglect of food or medical treatment, or through deliberate murder.

An "internment camp" is one in which non-prisoners of war are forcibly detained, yet are reasonably well cared for (given adequate provision, shelter, water), are not engaged in forced labor, and for whom the expected outcome is release.

A third kind of camp is, in the English language, the "prisoner of war" camp. Such a camp is a place where you put the captured combatants of enemy powers with whom one is at war. In these camps as well, it is expected that treatment includes reasonable provision of food, water, and shelter, with the ultimate expectation of release.

That is why your attempt to equate American internment camps with Axis concentration camps on the most spurious of reasons is so obviously an invidious comparison.

quote:

A German citizen found illegaly in Sweden will be apprehended by the authorities and put in a refugee camp, until it can be decided whether to eject him out of the country or whether to grant him asylum.


Except that it is not apparent that the German citizen was "illegally" in Sweden. He seems to have been there legally.

quote:

Had he been a Swedish citizen he would not have been put in a refugee camp,


He would not have been put in an internment camp. The German in question, however, chose the phrase "work camp" not "refugee camp." Moreover, as he was a person of independent means and also, to all evidence, legally in Sweden, your assertion that he was placed in a refugee camp seems incorrect.

It's hard to see why Sweden would have arrested him at all if he was in the country legally. In the US, as I noted before, German, Italian, French, Belgian, Polish etc citizens were not arrested simply for being a citizen of a nation at war during the interval from 1939-1941. Hell, even the refugees who DID manage to enter the US (often illegally) were granted legal resident status on the basis of their simply being refugees, rather than locked up in "camps" of any kind at all.

So Sweden's policy vis "refugees" or "citizens of nations not at war with Sweden but at war with each other" seems, by comparison, both arbitrary and unjust in comparison with US treatment of internationals of similar status.

quote:

nor would he have been put in an internment camp, nor would he have been put in jail (unless he had broken the law).


Sure. I suppose that breaking the law, in Sweden, probably included such thought crimes as being a communist, pacifist, member of a non-approved party, or other kind of citizen Swede troublemaker. The US didn't arrest THAT sort of person either.

quote:

We imprisoned enemy combatants in internment camps,


Yes. Why is anyone's guess. Probably didn't want to jeopardize Sweden's trade relationship with Nazi Germany.

quote:

we "imprisoned" enemy refugees in refugee camps.


True, even though most other nations (including the United States) did not. Pretty fascist of Sweden to treat people in that way.

quote:

At no point in time did we ever have or operate concentration camps (barring of cource our slave camps in the Gold coast of africa..but that was in the 17th century, so I think we can ignore those for now).


I'll concede that Sweden did not operate concentration camps of the sort operated by the Axis powers. You can call the Swedish prisons "internment camps" or in some instances, apparently, "work camps," and even in one instance "camps for politically undesirable Swedes who have not been convicted of any crimes" but the Swedish camps weren't in purpose or practice remotely like the concentration camps operated in Italy, Vichy France, Germany, occupied Poland and so forth.

But then, of course, neither were the US internment camps. Thus, any effort to construe US internment camps as in any way similar to Axis concentration camps is spurious, and it displays your true racist (or more accurately, ethnocentric) bias against the US in general. Was you not biased, you would not struggle so hard to find such flimsy grounds for making such a manifestly stupid comparison.







martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 1:22:43 AM)

Knuckle_85
I did not say my knowledge was from a movie (unless you are referring to the rather naive one about the soldiers - which was partly a joke - but which raised a cultural issue). I have read a serious and thoughtful novel, but, like most things, my experience of life does not only come from novels. My point was about cultural impact, and perception. I think your point was unjustified, uncharitable and ill-informed. I'm sorry that your response to it was so negative. I was trying to make a point about the different ways that people respond to complex situations at different times. There were Germans and Italians interned in the UK. In addition, a number of refugee German Jews were interened for a period. I didn't see that in a movie. It happened in the UK, which is a little place east of Wisconsion, but not as far east as Iraq. You may have heard of at least one of them. One appears a lot in movies, and the other tends to appear more in the news.



Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:54:54 AM)

Speaking of movies, there's one that was made in Sweden called Baltutlämningen.

Seems to be a racist lie about Swedish concentration camps, right, "Panzerjaeger?"[;)]

Seems the morally superior Swedish government turned over thousands of Baltic and Lativan prisoners to the Russians after the war, who were then murdered

Not much morally superior compassion shown to all them innocent Germans either. Now just who was it that was complicit in murdering prisoners? That would be the Swedes. Nobody in the United States was turned over to face Stalin's mercy.

The Russians murdered thousands of their own people who were tainted by contact with the evil capitalists. Good of the Swedes not to get their hands dirty by letting the Russains do their killing for them.

Compare to the victims interned in racist America, nearly all of whom survived the war, with the exception of a few who died of natural causes.

Of course, none of these people actually existed, just like Swedish concentration camps, because nearly all of the references about them are on Swedish language web sites. Gee, if we weren't such racists, we'd read Swedish.

It appears there are advantages to living in a country nobody cares about. Most of the references to your country's history are in your own language. Sweet. When you're a pathological troll.



Foxtrot Uniform -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 3:08:21 AM)

Thousands, eh? The source (if a forum post can be called a "source") you cite talks about just under 150 citizens from the Baltic countries... Maybe you should check your facts before you make that long climb onto your moral high horse?

In total, the number of internees deported from Sweden to the USSR after the war was around 2,600, the majority of them being Germans who'd served on the Eastern Front. No doubt quite a few of them, perhaps even the majority, died, but maybe you should prove that, hmm?




06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 4:01:25 AM)

The articles clearly state that about 3000 Germans and 150 Balts were sent to their likely deaths from Swedish interment camps. So, the unfortunate truth is that the Swedish internment camps were really just an extension of the Soviet Gulags. This is unexpected information for me; I never would have thought such a thing occurred.

BTW, Foxtrot Uniform, your handle is somewhat offensive and childish. Regardless of our different points of view on subjects, we should still be able to maintain some kind of common courtesy with one another. Your entrance into this forum with such a name shows a complete lack of respect for the this forum and its members. I'm sure that you could care less about my observation about your name, but you know what you have done-and it is childish.



Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 4:36:06 AM)

quote:

Maybe you should check your facts before you make that long climb onto your moral high horse?


Maybe you should check all the links included in the forum posts before you climb into bed with the horse's ass that denies these camps even existed at all.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

The key factor here is his citizenship, not his ethnicity.


You're a regular Clarence Darrow, aint ya? "Harummphh. We in Sweden did not discriminate based on ethnicity." Just how many people were there in 1940's era Aryan Sweden that could be distinguished by their ethnicity?[8|]

Maybe you'd like to throw in a bit about how nobody in Sweden hunted elephants for their tusks or burned down rain forests while you're at it?

What a keen legal mind. Faultless logic at work here. Just a variation on "We did not commit war crimes because we just let the Nazis have their way with us."

But then us stupid Americans aren't as persnickity about ethnicity as Aryan supermen. I do believe eastern europeans were considered racially inferior to you super humans. So that would make Lativans and other untermensch your gentic inferiors, wouldn't it?






morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 7:20:00 AM)

Just to address the internment/concentration camp thing one last time.

The reason I asked for definitions earlier is because I believe these two terms to be interchangible when referring to camps that were run by the United States. While conditions in these camps were not very comfortable, no one was systematicly starved, killed or experimented on. (I think I remember hearing a story about some Italian merchant sailors that were interned in the dakota's or maybe montana that actually married some local girls.)

As to the European Axis powers I am not sure how they were refered to in their native languages. (Don't speak german and the high school french has been totally useless) But from what I have heard and read, internment was for civilians from countries that the axis were at war with, where as concentration camps were for people imprisioned for ethnic or political reasons (both in the end being political reasons).
Of course every one here, I am sure, knows who got the worst treatment. Military prisoners were, generally speaking, well treated unless they were russians. I remember reading a story of how at some of the Russian POW camps the German's had problems with their guards disappearing. Apparantly the prisoners were eating them![X(]

With the Japanese Empire of WW2, I have never been able to see any distinction whatsoever between internment and concentration camps. While there may have been some guards at these camps that were not too bad, I believe them to have been few and far between. Brutality to military and civilian prisoners was routine for the Japanese. Even to the point of experimenting in biological warfare against chinese prisoners in Manchuria.

One last thing that may have fallen through the cracks with the Soviet gulags. We all know that German POW's did not do well there and numerous Russian political prisoners were sent there. The Soviets (meaning Stalin) also conducted a purge against the Kalmuks(sp?). So they did the ethnic thing too.



06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 8:27:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: morvwilson


One last thing that may have fallen through the cracks with the Soviet gulags. We all know that German POW's did not do well there



That has got to be the understatement of the thread. A good post though, which should help to clarify the differences of the camps further.

I would add that no Japanese in the U.S. internment camps had their skulls cracked open so the commandant could feast on their brains in an effort to understand Japanese thinking as a senior Japanese general made a habit of doing with American POW's.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:08:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie

Speaking of movies, there's one that was made in Sweden called Baltutlämningen.


What about it? A number of balts tried to flee to Sweden during 44/45. We did not accept them as refugees and sent them back. This is something that happens daily. Have you any idea how many refugees we turn back at our borders every day?

More intriguing, how did the discussion suddenly warp into this? Can it be that in your desperation to shift the subject away from your racist views on the Japanese, you have combed google for any possible Swedish atrocity? What about my question to you about the firebombings of civilians? Its not a question you want to answer huh? Is it because your racist views will shine through in your answer?

quote:


Seems to be a racist lie about Swedish concentration camps, right, "Panzerjaeger?"[;)]

I dont know if I would call it a racist lie. Lie or missunderstanding seems more appropriate.

quote:


Seems the morally superior Swedish government turned over thousands of Baltic and Lativan prisoners to the Russians after the war, who were then murdered

Not much morally superior compassion shown to all them innocent Germans either. Now just who was it that was complicit in murdering prisoners? That would be the Swedes. Nobody in the United States was turned over to face Stalin's mercy.


No, there was not much compassion shown to them at all. I hardly think it makes us complicits in the murder of said prisoners however, but I can understand why you want to paint it up as such. It is definitively not our proudest moment.

quote:


The Russians murdered thousands of their own people who were tainted by contact with the evil capitalists. Good of the Swedes not to get their hands dirty by letting the Russains do their killing for them.


Why would we want to murder balts? We had no motive for that crime whatsoever. We simply did not grant them refugee status and returned them to where they came from. The blood is on the Soviets.

quote:


Compare to the victims interned in racist America, nearly all of whom survived the war, with the exception of a few who died of natural causes.


Why are we comparing refugees denied asylum in sweden with US citizens interned in camps just because of their ethnicity? Are you actually trying to claim it was ok to intern them because you didnt kill them aswell?

quote:


Of course, none of these people actually existed, just like Swedish concentration camps, because nearly all of the references about them are on Swedish language web sites. Gee, if we weren't such racists, we'd read Swedish.


There were no Swedish concentration camps. It would seem you are the only one now still harping this line.

quote:

It appears there are advantages to living in a country nobody cares about.

Actually the advantage is to have an education. You should try to get such an advantage yourself.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 12:16:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
You're a regular Clarence Darrow, aint ya? "Harummphh. We in Sweden did not discriminate based on ethnicity." Just how many people were there in 1940's era Aryan Sweden that could be distinguished by their ethnicity?[8|]


LOL You really have no clue do you? We have always had an ethnic minority, an entire indigenous people living inside our borders. Kinda like your native americans, but without the massacres.


quote:


But then us stupid Americans aren't as persnickity about ethnicity as Aryan supermen.


I wouldnt say all americans are stupid. You however...

Just a question btw, what sort of education do you have doggie?




Foxtrot Uniform -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 1:31:16 PM)

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?



martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 1:55:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?

Hi ya Foxtrot,
There's a history to all this which you'll partly find in this thread, but also in other threads. You'll find that although our Panzerjaeger is making a "spirited" contribution to this thread, the initial nature of the thread was about racism. Some members of the forum, or in particular, some who decide to "drop in" occasionally are in the habit of making outrageous, unintelligent, unintelligible, dogmatic, and discriminatory remarks of all kinds.

I can see why you think that Panzerjaeger has got a bit entrenched in this aspect of the discussion (which started as a sideline) but it might be worth going back to the beginning to see the glee with which certain people welcomed the slaughtering of certain races as if they were scum.

Incidentally, all allied countries are guilty of "handing back". The British handed back Chetniks to the USSR. Other gropus were turned over, as well. In addition, deals between FDR, Stalin Churchill resulted in the western allies in Europe effectively standing by watching as Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR. There were, I understand, many objections to the policy, but it carried the day. Sweden sending Baltic state nationals back to their countries pales into insignificance against some of this. That said, I don't think they're in a position to take the moral high ground about it all, just because they were neutral. Presumably, as refugees, they could have been given some leeway, at least for a period.
I think anyone would have a hard time portraying Sweden as a great cause of evil, destruction and death, in the world during the 20th century. I think you could easily look elsewhere for that. Two or three very large countries spring to mind.
Please go and look at the beginning of the thread, and see some REALLY rabid contributions.

Incidentally, I don't intend any disrespect to you in any of this. Certain threads just bring out the weird ones from their kennels.



Foxtrot Uniform -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:18:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?

Hi ya Foxtrot,
There's a history to all this which you'll partly find in this thread, but also in other threads. You'll find that although our Panzerjaeger is making a "spirited" contribution to this thread, the initial nature of the thread was about racism. Some members of the forum, or in particular, some who decide to "drop in" occasionally are in the habit of making outrageous, unintelligent, unintelligible, dogmatic, and discriminatory remarks of all kinds.

I can see why you think that Panzerjaeger has got a bit entrenched in this aspect of the discussion (which started as a sideline) but it might be worth going back to the beginning to see the glee with which certain people welcomed the slaughtering of certain races as if they were scum.

Incidentally, all allied countries are guilty of "handing back". The British handed back Chetniks to the USSR. Other gropus were turned over, as well. In addition, deals between FDR, Stalin Churchill resulted in the western allies in Europe effectively standing by watching as Eastern Europe was occupied by the USSR. There were, I understand, many objections to the policy, but it carried the day. Sweden sending Baltic state nationals back to their countries pales into insignificance against some of this. That said, I don't think they're in a position to take the moral high ground about it all, just because they were neutral. Presumably, as refugees, they could have been given some leeway, at least for a period.
I think anyone would have a hard time portraying Sweden as a great cause of evil, destruction and death, in the world during the 20th century. I think you could easily look elsewhere for that. Two or three very large countries spring to mind.
Please go and look at the beginning of the thread, and see some REALLY rabid contributions.

Incidentally, I don't intend any disrespect to you in any of this. Certain threads just bring out the weird ones from their kennels.


Erm, my question was directed at "Doggie"...



Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:28:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I wouldnt say all americans are stupid. You however...

Just a question btw, what sort of education do you have doggie?




Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .

Your whole position has degraded to calling forum members here un-educated racists is as pathetic as the war profiteering your cowardly countrymen enjoyed as millions died though out the world during the war years.



Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:44:02 PM)

quote:

The revelations in Sweden's largest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, shocked the world: long admired as a model of the enlightened and humane social welfare state, Sweden had forcibly sterilized more than 60,000 people, mostly women, between 1935 and 1976. The sterilizations were part of a government program designed to weed out "social undesirables" in the pursuit of a stronger, purer, more Nordic population


Sweden's humane social welfare state



freder -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:47:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform

And what happened in your life to make you so hateful and angry?


He won't answer you, as you got just 3 posts (an important issue here on the forum).
My guess is that deep down, he knows the days of American global dominance are counted; China and India will take over soon. It makes him bark at the moon and everything that's not representative of that fine exquisite American high culture.



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:51:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .


Yes, never mind that because it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. Was that what you were going to say?

quote:


Your whole position has degraded to calling forum members here un-educated racists is as pathetic as the war profiteering your cowardly countrymen enjoyed as millions died though out the world during the war years.


Nah, my position is still that racial stereotyping is wrong. My position is still that it is wrong to call for the mass-murder of all japanese because of what some of its soldiers did. My point is that guilt is always individual, never collective.

Of cource you are uncomfortable with that discussion since you think it is ok with racial stereotyping, the slaughter of japanese civilians or POWs and that guilt can be collective, depending on the ethnicity of those judged. So therefore we are now discussing Swedish neutrality in ww2...

My position has not changed though, the only thing that has changed is your attempts to avoid the original discussion.



martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 2:58:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform


Erm, my question was directed at "Doggie"...


Oh - that's different!! Quite right too. Welcome to the forum. Ha! The doggie person is on my "blocked list" so I don't have to read his drivel. So sorry about that, and once again - welcome! [:)]

Martin



Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 3:01:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Winston Churchill said it best "that small, coward country

Never mind Sweden financed the war though there export of ten million tons of iron ore per year into the German war machine, along with their ball bearing export.
At one point outraged Allies drew up planes to level the Swedish factories, so what did the Sweden do ?
Started exporting their ball bearing steel and ball bearing machines to Germany.

Never mind used their Enskilda Bank to help the Germany dispose of assets seized from Dutch Jews who died in the Holocaust.

Never mind that Sweden burned all the records to their little refuge camps after it was apparent the Germans where loosing the war.

Never mind wehrmacht troops where allowed rail access during on many occation throughout the war years.

Never mind Swedish sterilizations of 'social undesirables', begun in 1935, continued long after the war

Never mind the countless Allied sons that fertilized European fields due to Sweden’s war profiteering .


Yes, never mind that because it is completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. Was that what you were going to say?




Really ?

Then enlighten us on how this is relevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.


Winston Churchill said

quote:

that small, coward country



Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 3:06:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

I had no idea Canada did it too. Shame on Canada aswell then.


"No Idea

The Understatement of the thread [:D]



Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/29/2007 3:09:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Really ?

Then enlighten us on how this is relevant

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.



Sure, I used that as an example on how dangerous stereotyping is, if you stereotype an entire nation from a single action or period of time you might arrive to all the wrong conclusions about that nation. Like you have done with Japan...you have decided to judge an entire nation, an entire race based on the actions of a few during a short period of time.

Now I ask you, what conclusion would we arrive at if we stereotype the US based on the examples of the internment of the Japanese-Americans or what if we were to stereotype the US based on the horrible atrocities committed against the native americans? What conclusions would we arrive at then?



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