RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

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Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 4:42:19 AM)
Funny thing is , PZJ Hortlund statements on this thread are a prime example why American military and my tax dollars after 60+ years are still funding Europe’s defense.

morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 7:18:30 AM)
I would like to hear what nasty things that PZJ Hortlund thinks Americans did in the P.I. It is something I would like my Philipino wife to read! So please conselor PZJ elaborate.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 12:09:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge I really get a kick out of watching you go on about “Individual blah-blah BS , but once America enters into your delusional debate you immediately take up the position of a “Collective un-educated racist Americans . Actually, this only reinforces the lingering suspicion Ive had that you dont know what a stereotype is. It would have been a stereotype if I had said "all americans are stupid" or "all americans are uneducated" based on those few examples. Still, it is hard to resist making smirk comments when one reads reports like this where 51% cant find New York on a US map, 33% cant find the pacific ocean on a world map, 11% cant find the US on a world map (sorry, must have confused New York and US numbers). I mean, a study that shows that one third of the US students doesnt know that you need to go south to get from Japan to Australia could possibly be used to base all sorts of stereotypes on. But I havent done that... And the only racist Ive come across so far is doggie.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 5:54:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doggie quote: "Panzerjaeger" : First, "my case" is that racism is wrong, stereotyping is the tool of the stupid, and guilt is individual not collective. You have not even begun arguing "my case", instead you have been trying to deflect the discussion into Swedish behavior in ww2, what is a concentration camp, and generally call me names Excuse me? I think I missed those points while you were rambling on about American internment camps, the Indian wars, My Lai, your law school, how the Swedes were superior to everyone else, and what ignorant, arrogant racist liars the Americans who fought the Japanese were. Yes, apparently you did miss those points, because when I held up My Lai as an example on how stereotyping an entire nation from one action will lead to all sorts of weird conclusions, you completely missed that point, and instead you went on some tirade about Swedish neutrality. I have never ever claimed that Swedes were superior to anyone, that is just your strawman-argument. I also havent accused anyone but you of racism, and when I accuse you of racism, it is because you have said several times that all japanese were stinking savages who deserved to be strafed in lifeboats, shot as POWs or firebombed in their homes. quote: blah blah.. You know the difference between a whore and an attorney, "Panzerjaeger"? There's some things a whore won't do for money. Well, you would know, wouldnt you?

PunkReaper -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 5:57:38 PM)
quote: Funny thing is , PZJ Hortlund statements on this thread are a prime example why American military and my tax dollars after 60+ years are still funding Europe’s defense. THANK YOU VERY MUCH....from everyone over here.

06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/3/2007 8:06:50 PM)
PZJ Hortlund It is clear that you don’t like Doggy; I would venture a guess that you two have met before. But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about your attacks on, and/or slanderous comparisons of the U.S, be it in 1850, 1945, or 2006. Because of your unending, venomous attacks on America, I can’t help but to wonder if you are longing to do a little “strafing”, yourself. Maybe you are too highly evolved to desire such a thing, but I wonder.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 1:23:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper quote: Funny thing is , PZJ Hortlund statements on this thread are a prime example why American military and my tax dollars after 60+ years are still funding Europe’s defense. THANK YOU VERY MUCH....from everyone over here. Well, the single prominent thing PZJ accomplished with his comments is verifying its money well spent [;)] PS: it’s a two-way street , thanks for your Nations efforts with the war [sm=00000436.gif]

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 2:20:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund But you are a racist doggie quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund the only racist Ive come across so far is doggie quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund bigoted and racist views put forth by doggie and others quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund I call you racist is because you have posted racist opinions quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund he is a racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund That is racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Without exception. That is racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund I dont know if you ever tried to pretend not to be a racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund racist stereotyping is not really that productive. quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund It is very very rare to see an intelligent man who also is a racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund a racist one at that quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund barging in parading horribly racist stereotypes quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund when questioned on those racist stereotypes quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund I call you racist is because you have posted racist opinions quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund that is merely a racist stereotype quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund again your racist views shine through quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund your relatives and aquaintances are racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund a confirmed racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund guilt need not be dependent on racist stereotyping quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Whatever. If you fail to see the racist stereotyping quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Here mdiehl. Racist remarks bolded quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund clearly he is a racist quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund some racist stereotypes, hateful outbursts quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund bigoted and racist views quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund from your racist views quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund your racist views on the Japanese quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund I would call it a racist What’s it they say about people that are constantly accusing ? [image]http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3808/86491961fp6.png[/image]

Goblin -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 3:09:12 AM)
[:D]

Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 3:55:50 AM)
Looks like the ignorant Americans are eating your lunch, Mister highly educated law school graduate. [8D]

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:30:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro PZJ Hortlund It is clear that you don’t like Doggy; I would venture a guess that you two have met before. But that is not what this thread is about. This thread is about your attacks on, and/or slanderous comparisons of the U.S, be it in 1850, 1945, or 2006. LOL, no. This thread is about how racism is wrong, stereotyping is a tool of the stupid, and that guilt is always individual, never collective. This is quite simple really. Did My Lai happen? Judging from the venomous outrage displayed by certain posters when the topic was brought up one wonders if this is disputed or if you (reluctantly, and with much attempt to sidetrack the subject to something else) agree that the massacre did indeed take place. If we agree that it did happen, then my question becomes "what would happen if we would stereotype the entire US army based on this one incident?". I use this as an example to show why stereotyping is indeed stupid. It will lead to all sorts of weird conclusions, see. Now, if you read the above a couple of times, then maybe...maybe you'll see that the discussion really isnt focused on any attack on your precious nation, but instead it is about racism, stereotyping and guilt. quote: Because of your unending, venomous attacks on America, I can’t help but to wonder if you are longing to do a little “strafing”, yourself. Maybe you are too highly evolved to desire such a thing, but I wonder. LOL yeah...anyone who ever dares to point out that the US track record isnt exactly spotless must be a terrorist.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:33:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge What’s it they say about people that are constantly accusing ? Looks like you guys have all but run out of arguments. Whats next, heading over to the steakhouse to regroup? Perhaps try another way to deflect the subject to something irrelevant?

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:37:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doggie Looks like the ignorant Americans are eating your lunch, Mister highly educated law school graduate. [8D] Another quality argument. It seems you have given up even trying to argue, and are now stuck in some pointless "I must get the last word"-anxiety. Im beginning to understand why you guys hang out in the steakhouse instead of here, you might actually run into intelligent or educated people over here...and there where would you be? Oo, I know the answer to that one, we can see it in this thread. Start out with the racist hyperbole, when called on it, deflect the subject, throw some random ad homs around and then retreat back to the steakhouse where you congratulate yourself for being hardcore?

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 2:56:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Looks like you guys have all but run out of arguments. Whats next, heading over to the steakhouse to regroup? Perhaps try another way to deflect the subject to something irrelevant? As in your compulsive deflect disorder ? No thanks, your “racist” quotes above are telling enough. Maybe if the MC morons had a beer for every time you said “Racists you would been playing on a even field, but as it stands your pegged [:'(] We’ll call it the : PZJ's Compulsive Racist Deflect Disorder Drinking Game [sm=party-smiley-012.gif]

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 3:06:35 PM)
I think you should call it "GW1 was not combat" instead. Edit: No, wait..."Sarge's Swedish army barracks-game"

Foxtrot Uniform -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 3:07:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund quote: ORIGINAL: Doggie Looks like the ignorant Americans are eating your lunch, Mister highly educated law school graduate. [8D] Another quality argument. It seems you have given up even trying to argue, and are now stuck in some pointless "I must get the last word"-anxiety. Im beginning to understand why you guys hang out in the steakhouse instead of here, you might actually run into intelligent or educated people over here...and there where would you be? Oo, I know the answer to that one, we can see it in this thread. Start out with the racist hyperbole, when called on it, deflect the subject, throw some random ad homs around and then retreat back to the steakhouse where you congratulate yourself for being hardcore? You know, all things aside, I wonder when mjk and Sarge were in fact engaged in a homosexual orgy in a Swedish Army barracks, and why Doggie knows about it?

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 3:11:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Looks like you guys have all but run out of arguments. Whats next, heading over to the steakhouse to regroup? Perhaps try another way to deflect the subject to something irrelevant? As in your compulsive deflect disorder ? No thanks, your “racist” quotes above are telling enough. Maybe if the MC morons had a beer for every time you said “Racists you would been playing on a even field, but as it stands your pegged [:'(] We’ll call it the : PZJ's Compulsive Racist Deflect Disorder Drinking Game [sm=party-smiley-012.gif] I see you went with option b btw...you're getting predictable.

06 Maestro -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 4:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund LOL, no. This thread is about how racism is wrong, stereotyping is a tool of the stupid, and that guilt is always individual, never collective. You are 1/3 correct. Unfortunately, that means you are 2/3rds wrong. 33% is a failing grade most anywhere-you fail. It is too bad that after all of this you still can't admit that guilt can be collective. If your mind is closed, you will never grow.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 5:48:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro You are 1/3 correct. Unfortunately, that means you are 2/3rds wrong. 33% is a failing grade most anywhere-you fail. It is too bad that after all of this you still can't admit that guilt can be collective. If your mind is closed, you will never grow. Guilt cannot be collective, at least not in the western legal tradition, or according to Christian morals. Now maybe collective guilt works fine in some Sharia-system or in some redneck trailer-park, but I hold myself to higher standards than that.

HansBolter -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 6:28:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund quote: ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro You are 1/3 correct. Unfortunately, that means you are 2/3rds wrong. 33% is a failing grade most anywhere-you fail. It is too bad that after all of this you still can't admit that guilt can be collective. If your mind is closed, you will never grow. Guilt cannot be collective, at least not in the western legal tradition, or according to Christian morals. Now maybe collective guilt works fine in some Sharia-system or in some redneck trailer-park, but I hold myself to higher standards than that. Methinks I have identified the mental block keeping you from grasping the concept of collective guilt.......you need to remove the "western legal tradition" hat and try to understand the world in non-legal terms. You couldn't possibly be more wrong regarding Christian morals. According to the Judeo-Christian myth "we" all carry the collective guilt of Adam and Eve. ...and the "red neck trailer park' comment couldn't possibly be more revealing in casting a light on your prejudice and stereotyping. Pot. Kettle. Black. Here is a steroetype you seem to fit to a tee......overeducated, liberal European pompous a$$ looking down the end of your nose at we barbarous Americans. Guilt CAN be collective. "Guilt" is a human emotion, NOT a legal status. Try thinking in terms of human emotions and NOT in terms of legalities and you might just have a chance of grasping a clue!

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 6:43:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter Methinks I have identified the mental block keeping you from grasping the concept of collective guilt.......you need to remove the "western legal tradition" hat and try to understand the world in non-legal terms. And why would I want to do that? Moral relativism = idiotic. quote: You couldn't possibly be more wrong regarding Christian morals. According to the Judeo-Christian myth "we" all carry the collective guilt of Adam and Eve. You couldnt possibly be more wrong regarding Christian morals, since the one thing that determines our fate is our subjective actions, thoughts or inactions. At the very heart of the Christian message is that you get to choose your own fate. quote: Guilt CAN be collective. "Guilt" is a human emotion, NOT a legal status. Try thinking in terms of human emotions and NOT in terms of legalities and you might just have a chance of grasping a clue! Arguing emotions is about as pointless as it gets. At the end, the best argument you will be able to present is "because I think/feel so". And that is completely meaningless. Here is an example of what a debate regarding emotions looks like. Poster 1: I think guilt is individual. Poster 2: I think guilt is collective Poster 1: I think you are wrong. Look at the history of the western world, our morals, laws religious beliefs etc. They support my position. Poster 2: Well, I think you are wrong. Poster 1: Well, I believe Im right, can you make some sort of argument for your position? Poster 2: I just did. I said I think Im right. Poster 1: yes but, what sort of evidence do you have for your position? Poster 2: I know it in my heart that Im right. Etc Complete. Waste. Of. Time. Now if you want to sit and argue that you are right and that collective guilt exists because you think it does and you base that on your emotions, then by all means sit here and talk to yourself.

HansBolter -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 6:57:38 PM)
You really couldn't be more clueless. Identifying guilt as an emotion and arguing that it is possible for an emotion to become "collective" has absolutely nothing to do with what "I" may be feeling. The argument isn't about what I, or you or anyone else is feeling at the moment. It is about the possiblility of an emotion or "feeling" to become collective. Furthermore, that the essential "message" of Christiananity is that we each determine our own course, auspiciously by believing in Christ or choosing not to, is also based on the premise that in order to escape the consequences of our "collective guilt" we need to make the "right" choice. It comes back full circle to the issue of collective guilt. Try as you may it is inescapable. That you avoided addressing the issue of your display of prejudice and steroetyping is quite revealing in, and of itself. p.s. this one seems to be a perfect fit: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 7:10:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter You really couldn't be more clueless. Identifying guilt as an emotion and arguing that it is possible for an emotion to become "collective" has absolutely nothing to do with what "I" may be feeling. The argument isn't about what I, or you or anyone else is feeling at the moment. It is about the possiblility of an emotion or "feeling" to become collective. Ok, how does an emotion become collective? You have a group of people, say 100, in a room. How does the emotions or feelings of one of these people become a collective emotion/feeling? More importantly, how do we determine the emotion/feeling of ONE of these people without looking at his actions or inactions, thoughts or non-thoughts? More importantly perhaps, what does this "guilt as an emotion" have to do with the discussion, which is about racism, stereotyping and whether there were Japanese soldiers in ww2 who didnt commit warcrimes or not? How do you determine guilt on the basis of "an emotion"? quote: Furthermore, that the essential "message" of Christiananity is that we each determine our own course, auspiciously by believing in Christ or choosing not to, We agree, and this was my point. quote: is also based on the premise that in order to escape the consequences of our "collective guilt" we need to make the "right" choice. It comes back full circle to the issue of collective guilt. Try as you may it is inescapable. I see this as Adam and Eve doing something stupid and being ejected out of Eden. Their behavior had consequences for all of mankind. quote: That you avoided addressing the issue of your display of prejudice and steroetyping is quite revealing in, and of itself. Whats there to say? You threw an ad hom in my direction...or some sort of mix between an ad hom and a strawman. I chose to ignore it and focus on the discussion instead of the personal attack... quote: p.s. this one seems to be a perfect fit: http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm Ok, so what are you looking for now? Do you want me to search the internet for some picture of how I percieve you? Should I throw in some insult here? What?

HansBolter -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 7:59:53 PM)
"How" is simply not a relevant and quite possibly beyond the capacity of humans to grasp within the framework of our current understanding of human behavior. 100 people in a movie theater watch a tear jerking scene. Are you actually telling me with a straight face that at least some small percentage of them are NOT experiencing a collective emotion? 100 people sit in a theater watching a magic show and respond with outward expressions of awe. Are you telling me with a straight face that at least some small percentage of them are NOT experiencing a collective emotion? 100 people sit in the tsands watching a football match cheering on their team. When that team wins and the fans COLLTCTIVELY express their elation are you telling me with a straight face that at least a small percentage of them are NOT experiencing a collective emotion? The relevance it has should be more than clear to the person who has invested considerable time in making it a cenrtral issue of the discussion. That it's relevance seems to escape your grasp is decidely dissappointing. "I see this as Adam and Eve doing something stupid and being ejected out of Eden. Their behavior had consequences for all of mankind." And that consequence would be............collective guilt! Nice job of resorting to the use of euphamisms to avoid admitting publicly that you were wrong. You chose to ignore "the personal attack" because addressing it would be decidely uncomfortable for you as it would require addmitting that you are engaging in the same behavior you have taken others to task for from your deluded position of higher moral ground. As for the referece to the Tireless rebutter. I was hopeful that you coyuld read between the lines and see it for the message that it is. I will eventually tire of this banter and you, unfortunately will see that as a sign of victory for you in this "debate". All it will truly signify is that I have better things to do with my time than waste it on an endless effort to remove the wool from your eyes.

HansBolter -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:03:19 PM)
"I see this as Adam and Eve doing something stupid and being ejected out of Eden. Their behavior had consequences for all of mankind." Let's try substituting other parties. "I see the Final Solution as Hitler doing something stupid and condemning Germany for all time to carry the stigma of having facilitated it. His behavior had consequences for all of Germany." Does that spell thing out in simple enough terms for you to be able to grasp the concept of collective guilt?

mjk428 -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:06:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund You couldnt possibly be more wrong regarding Christian morals, since the one thing that determines our fate is our subjective actions, thoughts or inactions. At the very heart of the Christian message is that you get to choose your own fate. That's not quite the heart of the Christian message. It's through no "works" of our own that we are assured of salvation. We are all sinners and saved only through Jesus. Jesus died for all our sins. Everyone is saved by Jesus - not just those that choose to be saved. So it's not about choosing our fate but rather accepting it. The distinction may seem subtle but it's a very important one. Because it's all about Jesus, not us.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 8:25:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Foxtrot Uniform/Panzerjaeger Hortlund You know, all things aside, I wonder when mjk and Sarge were in fact engaged in a homosexual orgy in a Swedish Army barracks, and why Doggie knows about it? I always get a kick out of the tard that invents a member just to drum up support [:D] Edit: Echoes of Les [;)]

Dino -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 9:17:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter "I see this as Adam and Eve doing something stupid and being ejected out of Eden. Their behavior had consequences for all of mankind." Let's try substituting other parties. "I see the Final Solution as Hitler doing something stupid and condemning Germany for all time to carry the stigma of having facilitated it. His behavior had consequences for all of Germany." Does that spell thing out in simple enough terms for you to be able to grasp the concept of collective guilt? Well, why stop there? "I see killing of Jesus as King Herod doing something stupid and condemning all Jews for all time, etc., etc..." It's a concept, all right...but, do we really want to embrace it?

martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 9:25:01 PM)
I'm left wondering how this VERY long thread got to this point, from the place that it started. To be honest, I'm now completely lost about what the issue is, what people are using as definititons, what people are disagreeing about, and what the purpose of it all is. I would be happy to discuss racism. I would be happy to discuss collective guilt, and I would be happy to discuss retribution, but what I can't do is figure out where we are in all this. I'm afraid I'm totally lost. I don't blame anyone. I don't know who I agree with, why, or what about. I am just plain lost. Would anybody care to give me a brief and coherent summary of exactly where this discussion is at the moment, and why. No disrespect to ANYBODY intended, and no agendas whatever being pushed. Cheers all, Martin

HansBolter -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (12/4/2007 9:34:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dino quote: ORIGINAL: HansBolter "I see this as Adam and Eve doing something stupid and being ejected out of Eden. Their behavior had consequences for all of mankind." Let's try substituting other parties. "I see the Final Solution as Hitler doing something stupid and condemning Germany for all time to carry the stigma of having facilitated it. His behavior had consequences for all of Germany." Does that spell thing out in simple enough terms for you to be able to grasp the concept of collective guilt? Well, why stop there? "I see killing of Jesus as King Herod doing something stupid and condemning all Jews for all time, etc., etc..." It's a concept, all right...but, do we really want to embrace it? Given the choice, probably not. The real question would seem to be do we embrace it by making a choice, or does it embrace us without allowing us a choice.

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