RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

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BlindOldUmp -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/21/2007 5:56:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Now, you expain something to me... Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything. If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate? Not a durn thing except obey the instructions of his Political and Military "Superiors" as most of us would. He then found himself in a situation where the peoples arrayed against the force he was a part of had no more sympathy for his people because the actions of others from his nation. Yes, that means he died (if this Asashi died - I'm not familiar with the story) for the actions of others. Not at all fair but that is the fate of any soldier in any war. The grunts & squids never start the thing they just do the bleeding. How many of us have the courage to tell the politicians to take a leap when they espouse immoral policies. Some I know. Not nearly enough however. Somehow nations find enough people who are willing to do what they are told without reference to the right or wrong of a situation. It's always "For the Good of the Nation" or "For the Good of All Mankind" even. Mankind has been this way since Adam & Eve disobeyed GOD to go their own way. We all want it our way. That, as I see it, is collective individual guilt and the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus 2000 odd years ago that "didn't happen". That act now being our only Hope in this world. Yes the Crusaders were wrong.

morvwilson -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/21/2007 7:18:56 PM)
Flame to the left of me! Flame to the right of me! Flame to the front of me! Man! I was talking about a FICTIONAL charactor in a Hollywood movie[X(] Incidentily my mother in law was born in Manila in 1933 and did not move to the states untill 1984. She still hates anything Japanese. (except cars?! go figure!)

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/21/2007 8:29:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything. If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate? Doggie was not a fighter pilot in WWII and Asashi indeed was not “strafed in his lifeboat“. Doggies is more the capable to defend his own views take that up with him , but his statements of the Japanese brutality are quit common among real Vets. Your little “ Tall Tail” of the poor little Japanese boy is hardly justification to re-write the historical facts that the Japans Military force as a whole was a bunch bloodthirsty savages.

ilovestrategy -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 12:38:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Raverdave Who the hell are we to sit and pontificate about what our fathers did in the pacific in WW2. You can read and watch as much as you like but it still cannot allow you to come anywhere close to being able to say what was right or not. WW2 was "Total" war and that was the point that the troops of the day understood. NONE of us can imagine what our feelings would have been, let alone our actions if placed in the same situation. I have to agree with this post. We were'nt there and it's easy to pass jugdement 60 years later. It seems to me that everyone on all sides had decided to take of the gloves and go "all the way". None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front. Both sides were tired, thirsty, hungry, homesick and the only way home was to kill the enemy. It's a lot different when you're the poor schmuck with one stripe on your sleeve.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 1:13:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front. Actually some of us can [;)]

KG Erwin -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 3:18:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge quote: ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy None of us can imagine what it was like to be stuck on some island thousands of miles away from your home, whether it was Japan or the US, and being pissed off that the only reason you are there is because of the guy on the other side of the front. Actually some of us can [;)] Do I take that to mean, Sarge, that, deep down, you do understand how the guy on the other side of the fence felt about missing his home & family? That, despite wrong-headed leadership, high-falutin' rhetoric and questionable nationalistic motives, you are there, and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it?

Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:24:07 AM)
quote: The US had internment camps, yes. Where people of a certain ethnicity was put. The only two other nations who had camps where they put people because of their ethnicity was Japan and Germany. Gee, you'd think a lawyer would know the diference between "ehtnicity" and "nationality". People from countries allied with Nazi Germany were interned in the United States. All except the Swedes. Might be some racism there. And not all people from Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria, and other Axis powers were interned, only those living in the vincinity of key defense industries. Of course if you knew WTF you were blabbering about; you would know that. If people were interned on the basis of ethnicty, then those camps would have been full of Chinese and Koreans, wouldn't they? quote: I find that offensive and you are an imbicile At least I can spell "imbecile" .[:D] quote: I've already told you about the story of the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier injured in the minefield. And people living in Dachau told us they didn't know anything about any death camps. I'm sure captured Japanese soldiers fell all over themselves telling us how nice they were to their prisoners, just like Swedes claim to be "neutral". quote: He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything. How do you know? Thousands of Japanese soldiers and sailors never got the chance to rape or kill anyone because Allied airmen killed them first. Good for them. quote: If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate? Actually, I'd prefer the sharks got him. Thousand of Imperial Japanese marines were strafed in their lifeboats after their troop ships were sunk in sight of Guadalcanal. If ANZAC and American fighter bombers had not killed them in the water, they would have made it to land and killed hundreds of American marines and soldiers fighting for their lives on that miserable island. I imagine a bunch of idiot lawyers in Belgium would have been horrified at that, but who cares? Idiots don't win wars; sane people do. quote: Incidentily my mother in law was born in Manila in 1933 and did not move to the states untill 1984. She still hates anything Japanese. (except cars?! go figure!) Well, obviously your mother in law is an ignorant racist. If she had any moral integrity, she would have collaborated with the Japanese, just like the Swedes. quote: LOL where do you come up with this stuff? Source please. Strawman. Doesnt work. [8\|] Historical fact "doesn't work"? Not only do you know nothing about the campaign against Japan, you don't even know what happened in your own country. quote: Actually, it is quite possible to think that its a great thing that lots of nations were liberated from opressive occupiers during the latter stages of world war two And not a single one of them was liberated by anybody from Sweden. quote: The only one who has been talking about superiority and race in this thread is you. Ever wonder why that is? And what american race? There is no such thing. Excuse me? I believe you were the one telling us about my racist relatives and aquaintainces who fought the war against Japan while your Gramma was was serving weissewurst and schnucklebunnies to the SS troops in the first class section of the Schnellzug nach Oslo. And aint all this about how Swedes are genetically superior to us racists because they let other people fight their wars for them while they sit on the sidelines and rake in the iron ore and ball bearing contracts? Hey, Swedes are the Aryan ideal, nicht wahr? You certainly seem to think so.

Doggie -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:47:16 AM)
Oh, this is priceless: quote: And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad. No! Twenty year old college boys have no idea what it's like to fight a brutal war against sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass murderers. Say it aint so.[8\|]

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:52:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KG Erwin Do I take that to mean, Sarge, that, deep down, you do understand how the guy on the other side of the fence felt about missing his home & family? That, despite wrong-headed leadership, high-falutin' rhetoric and questionable nationalistic motives, you are there, and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it? Of course I do , I am sure it crosses everyones mind at some point. But the luxuries of political debate are hardly common place, the whys and what -not’s are removed once you have boots on. Its truly hard to express the transformations a 19yr old kid will go through. This can go both ways, you would be shocked how fine of a point you can place on what was once just a average teenager with in a years time . Discounting training and doctrine expressed by Japans government leading up to wwii and stating it not representative of the common soldier is ludicrous , not to mention all the historical accounts that all tell the same “tall tail“., Japan set out to train a homicidal military and indeed accomplished its goals. quote: and you'll do whatever it takes to make it back home? That's all that matters, isn't it? There is a whole boat load of vets that have a chest full of commendations that say otherwise

KG Erwin -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 6:18:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doggie No! Twenty year old college boys have no idea what it's like to fight a brutal war against sadistic, bloodthirsty, mass murderers. Say it aint so.[8\|] And you do personally know what it's like? You're a combat veteran?

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 7:07:52 AM)
The first Gulf can hardy be concerted “combat”

KG Erwin -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 9:46:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge The first Gulf can hardy be concerted “combat” Really? Tell the widows of the soldiers who died in that non-combat that complete BS. I'll leave you to your delusions. I'm outta here.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 11:00:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Doggie Gee, you'd think a lawyer would know the diference between "ehtnicity" and "nationality". People from countries allied with Nazi Germany were interned in the United States. All except the Swedes. Might be some racism there. And not all people from Japan, Germany, Italy, Austria, and other Axis powers were interned, only those living in the vincinity of key defense industries. Of course if you knew WTF you were blabbering about; you would know that. If people were interned on the basis of ethnicty, then those camps would have been full of Chinese and Koreans, wouldn't they? Actually I do know the difference between ethnicity and nationality. But do you? Judging from what you just wrote, I think you need to look up the word "ethnicity". You might want to check out "nationality" aswell since over half of those interned were US citizens. Maybe we are getting to the very heart of your views here. You have no idea what you are actually talking about. Those interned in the camps in the US were US citizens, albeit US citizens of a certain ethnicity. And no doggie..."yellow" is not an ethnicity, that is merely a racist stereotype where several different ethnicities have been bunched together. Korean is one ethnicity, Japanese is another, Chinese is yet a third (with various subgroups at that). quote: And people living in Dachau told us they didn't know anything about any death camps. I'm sure captured Japanese soldiers fell all over themselves telling us how nice they were to their prisoners, just like Swedes claim to be "neutral". Actually, the one who tells this story is the wounded US soldier himself. So...again you fail. Maybe it would be better if you just acknowledge the fact that you fail miserably when you try to present your arguments for stereotyping and collective guilt. So far you have just managed to make a fool of yourself. quote: How do you know? Thousands of Japanese soldiers and sailors never got the chance to rape or kill anyone because Allied airmen killed them first. Good for them. How do I know? He never got a chance to disembark the ship in a non-Japanese port. What possible warcrimes could he commit? And again your racist views shine through. Not surprising. quote: Actually, I'd prefer the sharks got him. Thousand of Imperial Japanese marines were strafed in their lifeboats after their troop ships were sunk in sight of Guadalcanal. If ANZAC and American fighter bombers had not killed them in the water, they would have made it to land and killed hundreds of American marines and soldiers fighting for their lives on that miserable island. I imagine a bunch of idiot lawyers in Belgium would have been horrified at that, but who cares? Idiots don't win wars; sane people do. Here you go again, calling for warcrimes against the Japanese... Isnt it funny that when you cry about the evil japanese, the first thing you do is list a bunch of warcrimes and try to use these crimes as evidence for the wickedness of the entire japanese ethnicity. Then, you are suddenly in here defending warcrimes, only because they were committed by your side. quote: Historical fact "doesn't work"? Not only do you know nothing about the campaign against Japan, you don't even know what happened in your own country. Actually I am calling BS on your claim that Sweden had concentration camps. Its a lie. Period. So, now that you have been caught with a lie, what does that say about the rest of your posts in this forum? Clearly you are no stranger of making stuff up to suit your agenda. Its as dishonest as it is stupid. And the stuff about Swedish neutrality or non-neutrality is a strawman because it has got nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion. quote: And not a single one of them was liberated by anybody from Sweden. So what? quote: Excuse me? I believe you were the one telling us about my racist relatives and aquaintainces who fought the war against Japan while your Gramma was was serving weissewurst and schnucklebunnies to the SS troops in the first class section of the Schnellzug nach Oslo. Actually I have called you a racist. Based on your statements in this thread, you are. I could not care less about whether your relatives and aquaintances are racist or not, but presumably they are, judging from your description of what they have told you, as well as the fact that the apple doesnt fall far from the tree. quote: And aint all this about how Swedes are genetically superior to us racists because they let other people fight their wars for them while they sit on the sidelines and rake in the iron ore and ball bearing contracts? Hey, Swedes are the Aryan ideal, nicht wahr? You certainly seem to think so. My, you really seem obsessed with race. Whats unbeliveably funny (and when I say funny I mean stupid) is that you accuse me of racism...when I am the one sitting here trying to explain to you, a confirmed racist, that it is wrong to stereotype people based on their ethnicity.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 11:03:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge Doggies is more the capable to defend his own views take that up with him , but his statements of the Japanese brutality are quit common among real Vets. Doggie would not be able to fight his way out of a wet paper-bag, much less defend his own views. Have you actually been looking at his posts in this thread? quote: Your little “ Tall Tail” of the poor little Japanese boy is hardly justification to re-write the historical facts that the Japans Military force as a whole was a bunch bloodthirsty savages. But not all of them. Which is why guilt is always individual, never collective. Which was my point.

hawker -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 1:06:37 PM)
Panzerjaeger,why you still bother and talk with doggie??? His views on world are,maybe,slightly better than hitler or stallin views. Fortunately his backward views are in minor in USA. I have whole bunch of friends in US,and they are great people,open minded, which live in great and proud country. But,every now and then some ignorant, narrow minded imbecile emerge from mud of the past to start telling his diabolic tales from his own twisted brain. You have these imbeciles in every country in the world,yours,mine,just every country. Fortunately,they are all in minor,museum relics of the past.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 2:34:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KG Erwin Really? Tell the widows of the soldiers who died in that non-combat that complete BS. I'll leave you to your delusions. I'm outta here. Nice KG , So exactly where does your insight come from ? Hollywood and video games Even for you KG that’s a new low, and we all have seen some pretty stupid things out of you over the years. But telling any vet to going tell it to the widows of the soldiers who died WTF is that ?

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 3:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund Doggie would not be able to fight his way out of a wet paper-bag, much less defend his own views. Have you actually been looking at his posts in this thread? I’ll take a squad of Doggies over your company of sniveling sorry a$$ KG ‘s any day.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 3:58:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge WTF is that ? You were the one who claimed that the first gulf war was not "combat". How stupid is that comment...I mean really?

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:00:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge I’ll take a squad of Doggies over your company of sniveling sorry a$$ KG ‘s any day. What for? What are you and the squad of doggies gonna do? Anyway, have you noticed what the quality of your arguments in this discussion has watered down to? "I like doggie more than you..so meh".

JudgeDredd -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:12:31 PM)
Seems to me, from the snippets that I've read that Sarge and Doggie have explained in exemplary fashion how stupid they are. And Doggie, nice touch on calling me on the imbecile spelling thing. Too bad you have problems with the most basic of spellings in almost everyone of your posts (diference has 2 fs) but hey....congrats on spelling imbecile correctly (I wonder why that wasn't difficult for you?) You may both leave now.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:22:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund You were the one who claimed that the first gulf war was not "combat". How stupid is that comment...I mean really? In the context of the PTO indeed the first gulf has no comparison. And what exactly has brought my service record under fire, how about you ,KG and the troll Judge all enlighten us on your service records . HOI and Steel Panthers doesn’t count

martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:23:18 PM)
Panzerjaeger, If I were you, I'd just do what I do, and put the doggie on my blocked list. As regards the issue of whether there was combat in the first Gulf War, I agree. There are thousands upon thousands of dead Iraqis whose families will tell you that there was just a wee bit of combat. As for the British, we lost more to friendly fire from the Americans. I have also had to deal with people who suffered severe combat stress from the 1st Gulf War, not just because of what they went through, which you may or not be aware of, but also because of what they saw, and what they did, much of which was never reported, but which I have had confirmed. Don't bother replying doggie, I switched you off a long time ago.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:29:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd Seems to me, from the snippets that I've read that Sarge and Doggie have explained in exemplary fashion how stupid they are. You may both leave now. How is yours and KG insults at all relevant to this thread ? And since when do you and KG decide what and who is posting on Matrix ?

JudgeDredd -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:38:37 PM)
lmfao [&o]

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:42:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge In the context of the PTO indeed the first gulf has no comparison. The fact that there is a difference in scale between ww2 and the gulf war, does not mean that the gulf war was not combat. Your statement was idiotic. Live with it and move on. quote: And what exactly has brought my service record under fire, how about you ,KG and the troll Judge all enlighten us on your service records . Why is it relevant to the discussion? But ok, I was a squadleader in the Swedish army 1992-1993, and Ive been in the Swedish National guards from 2000 to now.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:43:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mart Panzerjaeger, If I were you, I'd just do what I do, and put the doggie on my blocked list. As regards the issue of whether there was combat in the first Gulf War, I agree. There are thousands upon thousands of dead Iraqis whose families will tell you that there was just a wee bit of combat. As for the British, we lost more to friendly fire from the Americans. I have also had to deal with people who suffered severe combat stress from the 1st Gulf War, not just because of what they went through, which you may or not be aware of, but also because of what they saw, and what they did, much of which was never reported, but which I have had confirmed. Don't bother replying doggie, I switched you off a long time ago. Funny how civilian deaths had no relevance when the debate was still under the subject of WWII Japan atrocities , but now that the moonbats have change tactics and the Gulf and the Vets are the main subject the civilian deaths have now become completely relevant. Wonder why that is ?

105mm Howitzer -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:51:20 PM)
I haven't as yet posted any replies on this thread, but I'll put in my 2 cents worth now. All I want to say is that, despite ideological beliefs, personnal backgrounds, and even educational levels ( could we say that? Not sure, but anyway) I will ALWAYS respect a combat veteran any day of the week. Having been involved in a small slice of it myself, (UN Peacekeeper, Cyprus) being involved in either a full blown "total war" or "police action" is no fun way to live life. Anybody that comes back from whatever battlefield or even overseas assignment gets a " well done" clap on his( her) shoulder from me. That's all I gotta say about this. Thank You.

Sarge -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 4:53:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge In the context of the PTO indeed the first gulf has no comparison. The fact that there is a difference in scale between ww2 and the gulf war, does not mean that the gulf war was not combat. Your statement was idiotic. Live with it and move on. believe me It was more like a training exercise , sorry to disappoint but I don’t have any “Tall Tails” to tell. Sure I heard small arms fire and seen things that shocked the living hell out of me as a 20 yr old, but severe combat stress from the 1st Gulf War [8\|]

martxyz -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 6:52:12 PM)
Funny how civilian deaths had no relevance when the debate was still under the subject of WWII Japan atrocities , but now that the moonbats have change tactics and the Gulf and the Vets are the main subject the civilian deaths have now become completely relevant. Wonder why that is ? [/quote] Sarge, I wasn't referring to civilian deaths, but to military ones. I have no idea what a moonbat is, and I'm certainly not changing tactics. I wouldn't want to suggest that civilian deaths in WW2 or any atrocities, were somehow less significant than more recent events in world history. If that's how it read, it wasn't intended that way. I was just replying to a single issue, and I have no wider axe to grind.

Hortlund -> RE: Letters from Iwo Jima (11/22/2007 7:24:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sarge believe me It was more like a training exercise , sorry to disappoint but I don’t have any “Tall Tails” to tell. Sure I heard small arms fire and seen things that shocked the living hell out of me as a 20 yr old, but severe combat stress from the 1st Gulf War [8\|] From the perspective of a ground troop in the coalition perhaps. Certainly not from the perspective of a pilot of the coalition airforce, and definitively not from the perspective of an Iraqi soldier. To claim that the gulf war was not combat is pure idiocy. Drop this moronic line of reasoning, cut your losses and move on.

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