Basic Unit Movement (Full Version)

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Fungwu -> Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 12:11:09 AM)

Hi, I am playing around with the editor for the first time and I had some questions about unit movement.

1st: A unit with 100 rifle squads:
5km hexes, full day turn, moves 8 hexes or 40km per day
A unit of 100 pzIIIs moves 16 hexes or 80km per day

PanzerIII drives 40km per hour so How do I get my tanks drive for more than 2 hours in the day? Alternately what is the best way to slow down my infantry without changing their fighting power? (Without adding howitzers or something like that)

2nd: I created a test unit with 120 rifle squads 200 305mm howitzers and one horse team.
With 120 rifle squads it moves 14 hexes. With 120 rifle squads and 200 305mm cannons it moves 1 hex. With 120 rifle squads 200 305mm cannons and 1 horse team it moves 5 hexes.

How does a team of horses pull 200 giant cannons?

3rd: A unit with 100 rifle squads:

5km hexes, full day turn, moves 8 hexes or 40km per day

50km hexes, full day turn, moves 3 hexes or 150km per day (an almost 4x improvement)
Isn't this weird?



desert -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 12:25:12 AM)

I actually never noticed that 3rd point, LOL.



vahauser -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 4:57:41 AM)

Fungwu,

I working on adding "heavy trucks" and "heavy horse" teams to my WW2 database and they will have slow movement.  This is in order to give players more options when creating units in the editor in terms of movement rates. 



jmlima -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 3:46:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu

...
3rd: A unit with 100 rifle squads:

5km hexes, full day turn, moves 8 hexes or 40km per day

50km hexes, full day turn, moves 3 hexes or 150km per day (an almost 4x improvement)
Isn't this weird?


This one is hilarious... never thought about that...

what are the overall scenario parameters? (movement bias and so on). are they always the same?



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 5:36:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
3rd: A unit with 100 rifle squads:

5km hexes, full day turn, moves 8 hexes or 40km per day

50km hexes, full day turn, moves 3 hexes or 150km per day (an almost 4x improvement)
Isn't this weird?


Norm, for reasons only he knows, only made a few enviroment combinations functional. See the attached chart that shows how the various combinations deviate from the nominal rates.

The good news is that Ralph has expanded the limits of the movement rate adjustment, so that every one of them can now be made good - at least as far as nominal movement allowance is concerned.

[image]local://upfiles/14086/62EB2F859D984BCC96AE05FAC42F2A00.gif[/image]



Veers -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 5:39:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
3rd: A unit with 100 rifle squads:

5km hexes, full day turn, moves 8 hexes or 40km per day

50km hexes, full day turn, moves 3 hexes or 150km per day (an almost 4x improvement)
Isn't this weird?


Norm, for reasons only he knows, only made a few enviroment combinations functional. See the attached chart that shows how the various combinations deviate from the nominal rates.

The good news is that Ralph has expanded the limits of the movement rate adjustment, so that every one of them can now be made good - at least as far as nominal movement allowance is concerned.

[image]local://upfiles/14086/62EB2F859D984BCC96AE05FAC42F2A00.gif[/image]

Wow. I never thought of that. Very interesting.



Fungwu -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/7/2007 6:47:53 PM)

Interesting chart.

6hour turn, 20km hex,
100 rifle squads moves 4 hex
that is approximately 320km a day, which would be running a 7.5 minute mile for 200 miles.
Must have a good fitness program.


I am still wondering about my second question:

I created a test unit with 120 rifle squads 200 305mm howitzers and one horse team.
With 120 rifle squads it moves 14 hexes.
With 120 rifle squads and 200 305mm cannons it moves 1 hex.
With 120 rifle squads 200 305mm cannons and 1 horse team it moves 5 hexes.

How does that one horse team pull 200 cannons at once? All I can think of is maybe they are as big as those giant elephants from the lord of the rings.



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/8/2007 8:28:13 AM)

Yah, toaw speed values are all fuggled up; I generally mess with it by changing hex sizes, changing movement bias, and adding static 'cargo trucks' or 'wagons' to slow stuff down like ballast -- ultimately, it would be nice if the code were streamlined, and people were allowed to edit the key values that seem to be screwing things up.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/8/2007 5:45:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Norm, for reasons only he knows, only made a few enviroment combinations functional.


Strictly speaking, although it's unrealistic, infantry with a move of 3 is far more practical than with a move of 1. The game wouldn't work at all if infantry only had 1 MP per turn- especially in COW. It's not much point being right if the game doesn't work.

The marginal scales are worth looking at, but the extremes are really a moot point. The game doesn't work at those scale combinations no matter what the movement rates are.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/8/2007 5:46:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
How does that one horse team pull 200 cannons at once? All I can think of is maybe they are as big as those giant elephants from the lord of the rings.


Answer: Don't make that unit in your scenarios. Porter squads can be used to achieve lower movement rates.

Anyway, no-one ever said how many horses were in a "team"....



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/8/2007 6:29:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
Strictly speaking, although it's unrealistic, infantry with a move of 3 is far more practical than with a move of 1. The game wouldn't work at all if infantry only had 1 MP per turn- especially in COW. It's not much point being right if the game doesn't work.


What's practical about an allowance of 47 instead of the correct 132?

quote:

The marginal scales are worth looking at, but the extremes are really a moot point. The game doesn't work at those scale combinations no matter what the movement rates are.


Even if you're right, why did he go to the trouble of actually sabotaging the movement allowances, too? He never so much as issued a syllable on the matter. And I definitely asked.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/8/2007 6:55:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

What's practical about an allowance of 47 instead of the correct 132?


If your units have 132 move then you'll only need one turn. Force one should be able to completely surround the whole of force two before force two can move.

quote:

Even if you're right, why did he go to the trouble of actually sabotaging the movement allowances, too?


As I've pointed out, at the extremes you get a more practical game this way- even if it's not realistic.



ColinWright -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 8:07:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Even if you're right, why did he go to the trouble of actually sabotaging the movement allowances, too? He never so much as issued a syllable on the matter. And I definitely asked.


This bears an alarming resemblance to what the great religions teach about God. Maybe if you tried fasting and a couple of weeks in the desert...



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 5:29:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
If your units have 132 move then you'll only need one turn. Force one should be able to completely surround the whole of force two before force two can move.


660km is 660km at 5km/hex or at 25km/hex. So, by your reasoning, he should have sabotaged all the whole-week environment combinations too. But he didn't.

quote:

As I've pointed out, at the extremes you get a more practical game this way- even if it's not realistic.


No. You don't get a more practical game. You get an enviroment that's completely unusable. Forces can only move at 1/3rd the historical pace.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 5:30:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Even if you're right, why did he go to the trouble of actually sabotaging the movement allowances, too? He never so much as issued a syllable on the matter. And I definitely asked.


This bears an alarming resemblance to what the great religions teach about God. Maybe if you tried fasting and a couple of weeks in the desert...



Tried that too. No help.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 6:10:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

660km is 660km at 5km/hex or at 25km/hex.


You know perfectly well that with the same time scale, a scenario at 5km/hex and one at 25km/hex will work completely differently no matter how careful the designer is.

It's also blindingly obvious that lower move rates reduce the unreality caused by the turn based system. In the real world, your opponent can begin to react almost immediately. So the less you are able to do before he can begin to react, the better- and more MPs mean more action.

quote:

No. You don't get a more practical game. You get an enviroment that's completely unusable.


Explain to me how infantry with 1 MP per turn is not "completely unuseable".



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 8:59:17 PM)

quote:

Forces can only move at 1/3rd the historical pace.
Why don't the developers just allow scenario designers to edit all the values? If I want to triple movement points, why not let me? If I break my own scenario, that's my problem.

quote:

Explain to me how infantry with 1 MP per turn is not "completely unuseable".


Game: Battletech
Unit: Infantry
MP: 1
Popularity: International Hit



ColinWright -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/9/2007 10:39:52 PM)


quote:


Game: Battletech
Unit: Infantry
MP: 1
Popularity: International Hit


So play 'Battletech.'

For one thing, a unit with a movement of 1 MP will be unaffected by terrain: it can always enter exactly one hex. Dense jungle, paved road, mountains, plains -- all the same.



a white rabbit -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/10/2007 7:58:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:


Game: Battletech
Unit: Infantry
MP: 1
Popularity: International Hit


So play 'Battletech.'

For one thing, a unit with a movement of 1 MP will be unaffected by terrain: it can always enter exactly one hex. Dense jungle, paved road, mountains, plains -- all the same.



..nope, try playing the Chinese in Zero Hour, the guerilla units won't always move one hex, damned if i know why but i suspect it's the unit composition..



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/10/2007 6:41:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
You know perfectly well that with the same time scale, a scenario at 5km/hex and one at 25km/hex will work completely differently no matter how careful the designer is.

It's also blindingly obvious that lower move rates reduce the unreality caused by the turn based system. In the real world, your opponent can begin to react almost immediately. So the less you are able to do before he can begin to react, the better- and more MPs mean more action.


If the phasing player can "completely surround the whole of force two before force two can move" at 5km/hex then he would be able to do the exact same at 25km/hex. Distance is distance. The distance traveled necessary to envelop the entire enemy force is the same in either case.

And, at 25km/hex the defense of the front might be one division-sized unit with a depth of one hex. At 5km/hex it would be about 15 battalion-sized units at a depth of 5 hexes (to be equivalent). The defense will tend to be about the same.

Note that I've got some practical experience with this. My "Kaiserschlacht 1918" scenario was designed at 2.5km/hex and 5km/hex - both with the exact same time scale. Both work about the same. If anything, the offensive is tougher at 2.5km/hex.

Be careful what you assume to be "blindingly obvious". That tends to be code for "I haven't tried it yet".

quote:

Explain to me how infantry with 1 MP per turn is not "completely unuseable".


That was not what we were talking about. We were talking about units with 132 MPs instead of 47. But I can imagine where 1 MP units could be workable.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/10/2007 6:46:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: AdamRinkleff

quote:

Forces can only move at 1/3rd the historical pace.
Why don't the developers just allow scenario designers to edit all the values? If I want to triple movement points, why not let me? If I break my own scenario, that's my problem.


As far as movement allowance is concerned, you now can make the adjustments necessary. The "Force Movement Bias" limits have been expanded so that all scale combinations can be brought up/down to the nominal values.

Of course, there are a few residual issues that haven't yet been addressed, so that some of the extreme combinations still aren't correct (fractional movement points, supply cost of movement, hex conversion costs, etc.).



Fungwu -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/10/2007 11:33:58 PM)

People are arguing and calling each other names over my post! YES! Mission accomplished.



Adam Rinkleff -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/11/2007 3:38:13 AM)

quote:

So play 'Battletech.'


Love it or leave it! What a healthy attitude... [8|]



ColinWright -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/11/2007 10:54:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Be careful what you assume to be "blindingly obvious". That tends to be code for "I haven't tried it yet".


Alternatively, it can mean 'a belief I intend to maintain even though it's logically indefensible.'



ColinWright -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/11/2007 10:55:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu

People are arguing and calling each other names over my post! YES! Mission accomplished.


I wonder if one could devise an automated program that could generate posts that had that effect. Sow dissension and cause flame-wars across the internet...



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/12/2007 2:27:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

And, at 25km/hex the defense of the front might be one division-sized unit with a depth of one hex. At 5km/hex it would be about 15 battalion-sized units at a depth of 5 hexes (to be equivalent). The defense will tend to be about the same.


We've got 25 hexes and 15 units (of which perhaps 10 can hold a hex). Obviously, the line isn't going to be 5 hexes deep.

Anyway, at 25km/hex you'll need a gap 75km wide in order to move without ZOC penalties. At 5km/hex, you'll need a gap 15km wide. At a proper turn length, you won't be able to push 100km into the enemy rear the same turn as you make such a gap.

quote:

Note that I've got some practical experience with this. My "Kaiserschlacht 1918" scenario was designed at 2.5km/hex and 5km/hex - both with the exact same time scale. Both work about the same. If anything, the offensive is tougher at 2.5km/hex.


What's the turn length?

quote:

Be careful what you assume to be "blindingly obvious". That tends to be code for "I haven't tried it yet".


I have tried it- in your scenarios among other things.

quote:

But I can imagine where 1 MP units could be workable.


See Colin's point.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/12/2007 2:29:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fungwu

People are arguing and calling each other names over my post! YES! Mission accomplished.


I have adjectives for Bob (intelligent, inventive, often mistaken, unbelievably stubborn). I wouldn't say they're names.



Curtis Lemay -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/12/2007 6:36:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious
We've got 25 hexes and 15 units (of which perhaps 10 can hold a hex). Obviously, the line isn't going to be 5 hexes deep.


There won't be a unit in every hex, but it will have significant depth. 60% of the hexes will be defended.

quote:

Anyway, at 25km/hex you'll need a gap 75km wide in order to move without ZOC penalties. At 5km/hex, you'll need a gap 15km wide. At a proper turn length, you won't be able to push 100km into the enemy rear the same turn as you make such a gap.


Instead of ZOCs you'll have actual units that would have to be cleared. Hardly "blindingly obvious" that it would be easier - especially in light of my counter example of "Kaiserschlacht 1918".

quote:

What's the turn length?


Whole-day turns in both cases.

quote:

I have tried it- in your scenarios among other things.


Then how could you make such an erroneous claim?

quote:

See Colin's point.


?? What point?

Regardless, I was thinking of subjects that primarily concerned air or naval actions.



golden delicious -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/13/2007 10:52:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

Whole-day turns in both cases.


Not exactly at extreme scale combinations, then. Movement rates can't get particularly high in either scenario.

quote:

Then how could you make such an erroneous claim?


Because in CFNA the movement rates are so high that motorised units can swing very rapidly through enemy forces which remain paralysed until after the action is complete.

quote:

Regardless, I was thinking of subjects that primarily concerned air or naval actions.


Ah- so scenarios outside the scope of TOAW.



Fungwu -> RE: Basic Unit Movement (11/13/2007 7:08:51 PM)

ORIGINAL: Fungwu
How does that one horse team pull 200 cannons at once? All I can think of is maybe they are as big as those giant elephants from the lord of the rings.

Answer: Don't make that unit in your scenarios. Porter squads can be used to achieve lower movement rates.

Anyway, no-one ever said how many horses were in a "team"....

Well what if I make a unit with 200 cannons and 200 horses, and 199 horses get killed, should that last horse really be able to pull all of the cannons at once? Even if say 50 horses get killed, shouldn't 50 cannons be left behind if the unit moves?

Also the same problem exists if you use trucks instead of horse teams, but I guess no one ever said how many trucks were in a "truck" right?


"I wonder if one could devise an automated program that could generate posts that had that effect. Sow dissension and cause flame-wars across the internet... "

Thank you sir, I now have a purpose in life...





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