Evacuating cadres?

Evacuating cadres? (Full Version)

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DanielAnsell -> Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 8:37:44 AM)
I am just coming back to WITP after a long absence, mostly just been fighting the AI. (And still getting my arse kicked, which should give some idea why I don't play real people.) In a lot of the AARs, I read about what sound like wholesale evacuations of partial units from places like Singapore and Manila, to be taken to a headquarters and regrown into fighting units again, after their original units get ganked by the mighty Japanese 41-42 steamroller. My question to the forum is, how do you do that? Especially from Manila, where headquarters changes are an issue. Is there a way to split off a small force and just change headquarters of the cadre portion?

Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 8:53:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carny I am just coming back to WITP after a long absence, mostly just been fighting the AI. (And still getting my arse kicked, which should give some idea why I don't play real people.) In a lot of the AARs, I read about what sound like wholesale evacuations of partial units from places like Singapore and Manila, to be taken to a headquarters and regrown into fighting units again, after their original units get ganked by the mighty Japanese 41-42 steamroller. My question to the forum is, how do you do that? Especially from Manila, where headquarters changes are an issue. Is there a way to split off a small force and just change headquarters of the cadre portion? Well, from Singapore you just have to pick up those units and move them to India, as long as their HQ is SouthEast Asia, so a non-restricted one. While for Manila and the Rest of DEI, where the HQs are mostly restricted, just wait to accumulate some PPs (political points), then select those units who are more usefull and at the same time less expensive (ex: a PI division is defenetly expensive in terms of PPs, while a base force or an AA unit will be very cheap and can be more usefull in the near future than a PI division). Then with the subs in Manila, start transporting the units to Oz or India. The fragments will remain there even if the main unit will be kicked out of the earth, and they'll become the original unit as soon as the real one is destroyed. After that they start to recieve reinforcements and with some patience you'll have a brand new unit. hope that helps

DanielAnsell -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 11:24:26 AM)
Very much so. That was pretty much what I was doing, though since I usually run subs on auto ops, my supply of subs in Manila is fairly limited. Still, might be worth it to run the subs manually, given how useful they are.

saj42 -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 3:34:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Carny Very much so. That was pretty much what I was doing, though since I usually run subs on auto ops, my supply of subs in Manila is fairly limited. Still, might be worth it to run the subs manually, given how useful they are. I use the S-boats in the attack role (as they have the working torps) and use all the other US subs in Manilla for sub-transport. My priority for evacuation, using the limited PPs is 1. PI Engr REgt 2. small PI Inf unit 3. AA unit 4. Asiatic Fleet HQ 5. anything else I can afford The US Armd units would be good but can only use AKs - which is very hazardous. You can make the PPs go further by changing command of units with disablements (they are cheaper)

2ndACR -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 5:32:55 PM)
I grab the PI engineer unit, aviation eng bn and then assorted base forces and HQ's. My primary usage for PP's in the first month or so are. Every small Dutch Inf unit outside Java. I bring them home to mama. The PI fighter group with P40E's Only then do I start grabbing PI units.

Andy Mac -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 5:58:12 PM)
1. Relieve key leaders (percival) 2. Decide on strategy IF Fortress Malaya - start to move PI units to Singapore so PI gets priority for PP's or Fortress Java - use PP's to move Dutch units back to Java and a few key PI units (I like the Armoured bns for this seabee Bn and AA units to blunt Japanese air weapon) or Partial Sir Robin - Use PP's to rescue a few key units as you are able (there are others Fortress Timor, Fortress Sumatra, Sir Robin - PM, Sir Robin - Burma, Sir Robin - India) Basically your strategy and use of PP's depends on your strategy decision and your opponents.

ny59giants -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/9/2007 10:26:55 PM)
I agree with other posters about using your non-S boats (American) for evac. Below is what I copied off a post by Feinder about the subject. it has worked well for me (late 7/42 in one PBEM). quote: Sub Evacs Aviation Support has a load cost of 20. (Regular) Support has a load cost of 20. Infantry has a load cost of 10. Most MGs have a load cost of 5 – 10. All of the RN subs, and the RDN subs have a load capacity of 18 or less. You can see the cargo capacity of a sub by pulling up the ship’s detail screen. Of he US subs, there is some variety… Barracuda class (CHS) = 18 capacity Dolphin class = 18 capacity Old S-class = 22(?) capacity Salmon class = 42 capacity Tambor class = 22(?) capacity Gato class = 40ish capacity So the RN and RDN subs cannot load support or av-support squads. If you unit is only comprised of support (which is all that remains at the very end), they will not load anything. The RN/RDN subs –can- load squads. So if your base force or isolated Btn has infantry squads in it, they –will- load those. The Barracudas are also low in capacity. The Salmon class are good early war for transports, as they can load 2 support per sub. I put a LOT of effort in sub-evacs. (small essay to follow)… Most of the time when you unit initially retreats, it’s NOT in that bad a shape over-all. Maybe you have a 150 squads/support to start. After losing the battle and retreating, you probably will have around 80 elements disabled, 50 still active, and 20 destroyed. You still have 130/150 elements, but if you don’t get them out, they’ll likely all die because your probably retreated into the middle of nowhere with no supplies. Chances are, Japan will –not- have pursued you. Your retreated unit likely in the middle of nowhere, and Japan is probably not sitting on you. But your guy is out of supplies and –will- die unless you march them somewhere that is in supply (or evac them). Your formation is still at about 85% strength, -if- you can get him out. So spend the effort to save him. It takes a while to evac a whole unit, you’re not going to save everybody as they will be slowing dying off as you evac them. But even if you can salvage 50% of the unit, that’s still “significant”. Note that I am, and am –not- talking about evac-ing cadres here. I am talking about pulling guys off the beach with subs (evac-ing cadres). But I’m –not- talking about just pulling just 2 or 3 guys off the beach. I’m talking about producing maximum effort to save 100 squads. It –can- be done. And when it’s all said and done, I won’t have a handful of Dutch cadres with 2 squads. In another PBEM game (08-42), the 1st and 2nd Provisional Dutch Divisions (about 2 Rgts + 3 Btns at full strength - each) recaptured Port Moresby. If you only pull out 2 squads, it doesn’t amount to crap. If that all you –can- pull out, sure. But if over the course of a month you can save 50% of the unit, then by all means, do so. You can never have enough troops! I realize there’s a lot of ballyhoo about points (to play or not to play, for them). But whether you’re in for points or not, everybody –does- keep an eye on them. Troop losses are the single greatest liability to the Allied player. Every 6 squads you save, saves you a point. Every 48 you save, is the same vp cost as a destroyer. If you save 48 squads (8 points), you’ve just –raised- the Japanese requirement for auto-victory by 32 points (now Japan has to sink an extra CL because you were diligent in rescuing your fragments). My subs are my work-horses for the first six months. I use the RN/RDN subs, and the old S-class on patrols to start. Their’s are the only ones with good torpedoes, so I try to get my mileage out of them. For the other USN subs (crappy torps), I load up with some mines if they can, drop the mines off somewhere, then “patrol” at full speed to a pick-up point, and switch to “transport”. They pick up survivors, full speed back to drop them off at an appropriate recoup location. Then full-speed “patrol” back to their next pick-up site. The RN/RDN/S-class subs patrol until they run up about 15 sys dmg. After 15 sys dmg, subs have a hard time getting into position to take a shot before they get hit by ASW. So after the RN/RDN/S-class top 15 sys, I revert them rescue duty. While strictly not as useful as the USN fleet boats (smaller capacity), there are still plenty of Infantry squads (load =10) to be picked up. You can have a sub with 40 sys dmg out picking up guys, it doesn’t reduce their capacity. Higher sys –does- make your sub easier to spot, esp by LBA. Your subs –will- get plinked as they go about picking up survivors. After a sub has 50ish sys dmg, I –believe- it’s very detrimental. Just as a CV with 50+ dmg cannot conduct flight ops, I believe I read somewhere that subs with 50+ sys cannot submerge. Over 50 sys, your subs will get plinked a lot by enemy LBA, which seems to bear out the “cannot submerge” hypothesis. Bilbow’s attack on Manila (sinking about 20 subs), was –very- annoying. I obviously have big plans for my subs, but I’ve had to make due with less. Just zooming around at full-speed, and an occasional plink by LBA (which really hurts by the way, but is usually not fatal), puts most of subs with sys dmg in the 30s. Many of them have never even been attacked by DCs. The evac efforts will (likely) continue thru about June (that’s about how long it takes to “clean up” all the fragments from SRA). Subs with <15 sys (and working torps) go on patrol. Subs with 15 – 49 sys run evacs. Subs with 50+ sys get rotated back to port. Newly arriving subs plug the gaps. By July, my subs will be in sorry shape (although normally few are actually SUNK during the patrol-evac cycle). They’ll end up having to port for about 4 months, which handily coincides with the radar upgrade, and eventually working torpedoes.

DanielAnsell -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/10/2007 6:45:05 AM)
Many thanks for all the replies, and that quote from Feinder was excruciatingly awesome.

Hoplosternum -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/11/2007 2:47:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Tallyho! The US Armd units would be good but can only use AKs - which is very hazardous. You can make the PPs go further by changing command of units with disablements (they are cheaper) Actually, and I know it's silly, but the actual tanks themselves can fit on to the 40+ capacity US Subs. So you can get a fragment away and save these armoured units [:)] It uses up most of your PP for the early months, but unless the IJ player is moving fast or concentrates very heavily on the Philippines it is possible to save a fragment of nearly everything. Malaya often falls first and that needs no PPs. The PI often holds out long enough that even the bigger infantry formations are affordable (although these never fully recover as there are not enough PI squad replacements) before the end. Most of the Dutch units are cheap and a fragment can be lifted by sub or Float plane as each base is threatened. Most of the units don't recover for years though. Remember that you cannot turn on 'just AV' replacements. It's all or nothing. So if you evacuate lost of British & US Base Forces while they soon become useful as base forces they empty your pools of all the infantry squads as well. The Dutch units are less problematic here as who cares if there are no Dutch infantry squads in the pools? But at least some of these receive static gun replacement/upgrades so make sure they (I think it's the navy base ones?) are in the right position for the long term before you turn replacements on [:)]

PetrOs -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/11/2007 2:09:19 PM)
Well, my usual strategy while playing allies - fortress phillipines/air harrassing of the japanese transports. For that, you need to secure the supply to bataan... march all your troops to bataan, and make it building forts and airfield. Garrison Jolo Island ASAP, fighters from there can cover your transports to bataan. Its also critical to hold java. Evac all the troops from singapore/malaya to batavia...Maybe a few to andaman islands or so... Birma can also be evacuated, usually on foot to india. run your transports from singapore a long way off... in malacca straights theyll be sunk. To cover the Transports, hold some fighters/1 baseforce in Singapore until the very end, then evac them with the last convoy... Even Buffalos can score if the enemy bombers are unescorted or covered by Nates or Oscars only... Rush as many fighters as you can from the USA/Hawaii to australia->DEI as you can... Warhawks/Tomahawks and Cobras are not bad..Even Mohawks can be useful if mixed with the better fighters. Upgrade australian buffalo squadrons to hurricanes when you have some... those will be your main asset for a few months! Generally, Batavia (with reoccupation of Palembang later, when you have enough troops/air cover) - singkawang - jolo island - bataan is well holdable.... And as long as you hold it, and bataan getting food, bombers from there, as well as from china will go on killing enemy shipping around taiwan.. my best was over 600!! ships sunk until end of may, including 2 light and one fleet carriers. Fortress set to 1000 feet bombing is deadly, blenheims, mitchells, marauders, DB-3c also do the job. Hudsons and catalinas spot the targets...

DanielAnsell -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/13/2007 10:23:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PetrOs Well, my usual strategy while playing allies - fortress phillipines/air harrassing of the japanese transports. For that, you need to secure the supply to bataan... march all your troops to bataan, and make it building forts and airfield. Garrison Jolo Island ASAP, fighters from there can cover your transports to bataan. Its also critical to hold java. Evac all the troops from singapore/malaya to batavia...Maybe a few to andaman islands or so... Birma can also be evacuated, usually on foot to india. run your transports from singapore a long way off... in malacca straights theyll be sunk. To cover the Transports, hold some fighters/1 baseforce in Singapore until the very end, then evac them with the last convoy... Even Buffalos can score if the enemy bombers are unescorted or covered by Nates or Oscars only... Rush as many fighters as you can from the USA/Hawaii to australia->DEI as you can... Warhawks/Tomahawks and Cobras are not bad..Even Mohawks can be useful if mixed with the better fighters. Upgrade australian buffalo squadrons to hurricanes when you have some... those will be your main asset for a few months! Generally, Batavia (with reoccupation of Palembang later, when you have enough troops/air cover) - singkawang - jolo island - bataan is well holdable.... And as long as you hold it, and bataan getting food, bombers from there, as well as from china will go on killing enemy shipping around taiwan.. my best was over 600!! ships sunk until end of may, including 2 light and one fleet carriers. Fortress set to 1000 feet bombing is deadly, blenheims, mitchells, marauders, DB-3c also do the job. Hudsons and catalinas spot the targets... This sounds like an interesting strategy. I've been playing B-Mod and extended map recently, I wonder if it would serve there?

2ndACR -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/13/2007 10:28:46 AM)
Against the AI maybe...............Against a human in PBEM, you would never have a chance with that tactic. About the best you can really do is hope to stall him in the PI and pray he gives you time in Java. And then you are just a bigger speed bump that hopefully will do alot more damage to him.

histgamer -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/13/2007 10:31:41 AM)
Sorry but isnt causing the PI armies and what not to be regenerated a bit gamey? I can see somewhat evacuating Singapore as more realistic and I am very aware certain people and troops were evaced via sub's from the PI but very few PI people were, they were mainly more critical americans or parts of enginer units or what not.

histgamer -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/13/2007 10:31:57 AM)
I belive some code breakers were also taken out.

bobogoboom -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/13/2007 10:41:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Sorry but isnt causing the PI armies and what not to be regenerated a bit gamey? I can see somewhat evacuating Singapore as more realistic and I am very aware certain people and troops were evaced via sub's from the PI but very few PI people were, they were mainly more critical americans or parts of enginer units or what not. Depends on what your opponent is doing. and depends on house rules. If you opp is taking every unit he can from restricted commands without paying political points then no. plus these units also are fairly bad with fairly bad leaders and very low replacement rates. Again this is something that should be covered in house rules before you start the game. Also if you spend political points on these units it stops you from spending those same point on good west coast units and can be moved into battle zones to slow the japs I personaly don't like to evac them. I do evac 4th marine reg and the aa unit that start in the pi and evac all my air units. same discusion needs to be had for dutch units.

rtrapasso -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/20/2007 4:46:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: flanyboy Sorry but isnt causing the PI armies and what not to be regenerated a bit gamey? I can see somewhat evacuating Singapore as more realistic and I am very aware certain people and troops were evaced via sub's from the PI but very few PI people were, they were mainly more critical americans or parts of enginer units or what not. Part of the problem of "evacuating cadres" is that although the Allies did it (extensively) - UNITS WERE NOT ORGANIZED IN REAL LIFE LIKE WITP HAS THEM ORGANIZED. This gets overlooked. At least early in the war many (most, i think) land air units generally had their mechanics as part of the unit. When air unit relocated (in actual events) they made every effort to take their mechanics (and HQ staffs) with them. They did this in bombers, even in fighters (stuck folks in the cockpit, or even in the fuselage) - and they were successful in getting out key personale. Of course, WITP doesn't have things organized in this way - air support is located with base forces or other LCUs - not with the air units. And you can't move them by bomber or fighters. So, when folks start to evacuate their air support, there is a cry of "Gamey!! - tell us what units were ever evacuated that way?" While, in actual events, they (mechanics and hq staffs) were in fact evacuated. Reading through Shore's "Bloody Shambles" series gives numerous examples. Of course, the game would probably have to be rewritten to get it to work in the way things did in real life...

JeffroK -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 3:41:41 AM)
I agree with flanyboy that sub-lifting cadres out of PI, Malaya, DEI to the extent mentioned above is gamey. Yes there are examples where it did happen, in very small numbers. At the time it was considered that subs where there to attack enemy shipping and it took a while to work out the torps were u/s. We might as well allow PT boats to join in the action as they also carried evacuees. (At the same time, allow Allied combat ships to carry troop, happened all the time!) Dont forget that AV points include the infrastructure to support a plane, not just the men.

rtrapasso -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 5:28:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffK I agree with flanyboy that sub-lifting cadres out of PI, Malaya, DEI to the extent mentioned above is gamey. Yes there are examples where it did happen, in very small numbers. At the time it was considered that subs where there to attack enemy shipping and it took a while to work out the torps were u/s. We might as well allow PT boats to join in the action as they also carried evacuees. (At the same time, allow Allied combat ships to carry troop, happened all the time!) Dont forget that AV points include the infrastructure to support a plane, not just the men. No, they were not in small numbers - they happened virtually every time an air unit was transferred. Subs could and did carry large numbers of troops (one S-boat carried out over 100 evacuees in one mission). i think there should be an Evacuation Mission to remove disabled troops (but leave equipment) but this isn't about to happen. PTs DID carry troops and this was one of the more useful missions they performed during the war (but, of course, not in the game). Allied ships can carry troops as well in the game already. As far as US subs being there to just attack the enemy - fine - as long as you limit the other side to do just what they did during the war. Players learn what the mistakes were and play accordingly - to try to limit one side to adhere to the mistakes while the other side is not is really not reasonable.

JeffroK -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 6:47:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: JeffK I agree with flanyboy that sub-lifting cadres out of PI, Malaya, DEI to the extent mentioned above is gamey. Yes there are examples where it did happen, in very small numbers. At the time it was considered that subs where there to attack enemy shipping and it took a while to work out the torps were u/s. We might as well allow PT boats to join in the action as they also carried evacuees. (At the same time, allow Allied combat ships to carry troop, happened all the time!) Dont forget that AV points include the infrastructure to support a plane, not just the men. No, they were not in small numbers - they happened virtually every time an air unit was transferred. Not to the extent where entire Rgts were moved, and while pilots often carried their erks in a panic evac, we would only be looking at 10-20 men carried by a Fighter Sqn, equiv to about 1 AV. In malaya & DEI most ground crew had already bolted or were left behind. Subs could and did carry large numbers of troops (one S-boat carried out over 100 evacuees in one mission). i think there should be an Evacuation Mission to remove disabled troops (but leave equipment) but this isn't about to happen. They should have a "pickup troops" option like the fast transports do, but with a limit so a fleet of subs dont rock up and do a Dunkerque. PTs DID carry troops and this was one of the more useful missions they performed during the war (but, of course, not in the game). Yep, maybe a troop type ie. Ranger/Commando/Light Infantry could be carried (Brit MTB's etc carried troops around Akyab/Ramree) Allied ships can carry troops as well in the game already. ?? DD's & CL's?? As far as US subs being there to just attack the enemy - fine - as long as you limit the other side to do just what they did during the war. Always the problem, part of why I play with myself. Players learn what the mistakes were and play accordingly - to try to limit one side to adhere to the mistakes while the other side is not is really not reasonable. I think players also look at History and try to use the game to better it,often by "using' the game system and use every loophole they can, in hindsight we will always avoid mistakes that happened. In addition, both sides have far too much intel about the opposition & its abilities. Unfortunately this cant be resolved unless a "Free set up" is allowed, but then we might as well play Battleships.

Hoplosternum -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 11:11:01 AM)
An oddity I just noticed recently is that BBs can carry troops in a Fast Transport TF but BCs can't [:)] They both go in a Fast Transport TF but only the BB loads anything. I am fairly sure all Cruisers can carry troops. There is, or was, a bug with those that also had float planes. I don't think they ever loaded properly. Come to think of it that may be the problem with the BC, I'll have to check [:)]

Hoplosternum -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 11:59:18 AM)
I have never considered cadre evacuation an especially gamey tactic. It has many costs including: - The Patrols, Warships and Subs doing it are tied up for a long time. - Refilling these units takes along time and for many nationalities locks up valuable Infantry squads in units that will not fight again (allied base forces should not be fighting by the time they are rebuilt). - It uses up your PP points in the early months so that units from the WC, leader changes and UK ship recalls cannot be prevented. - Many units such as the Dutch and Philippine units have poor leaders, low morale, poor fighting stats and will not fill up for years if ever. So the allied player has to ask himself, even though he can evacuate cadres of nearly everything, should he? There are really only a few units that are useful - The US Fleet HQ, the two Australian Brigades in Malaya, the US Marine Regiment, combat engineers and the Tanks in Philippines. That's about it. And even those won't be refilled for many, many months when you have plenty of reinforcements anyway. So none are vital. The base forces lock up valuable infantry squads. IME the Indian and UK Brigades saved from Malaya rarely refill in the first year and a half. There are too many, better, partially filled Divisions arriving as reinforcements and too few replacements - at least in stock. The "Commonwealth" ones will refill but are hopeless. etc. etc. Cadre rescue does give the allies a little more flexibility though. The US gets plenty of early large reinforcement base forces. So they don't need a few small ones from the PI and DEI (that need to be rebuilt). But if they do rebuild them they can stick a base force on every island in '43. It's not exactly a power gaming move - it probably costs more than it's worth. But it is a nice to have if you do it. IMO gamey moves are those exploit the game mechanics to do things that were impossible in real life, much more effective than in real life or were things that could be done in real life but are too 'cheap' in WITP. Evacuating cadres has a fairly high cost for the benefits it brings so does not really count.

rtrapasso -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 3:04:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffK quote: ORIGINAL: rtrapasso quote: ORIGINAL: JeffK I agree with flanyboy that sub-lifting cadres out of PI, Malaya, DEI to the extent mentioned above is gamey. Yes there are examples where it did happen, in very small numbers. At the time it was considered that subs where there to attack enemy shipping and it took a while to work out the torps were u/s. We might as well allow PT boats to join in the action as they also carried evacuees. (At the same time, allow Allied combat ships to carry troop, happened all the time!) Dont forget that AV points include the infrastructure to support a plane, not just the men. No, they were not in small numbers - they happened virtually every time an air unit was transferred. Not to the extent where entire Rgts were moved, and while pilots often carried their erks in a panic evac, we would only be looking at 10-20 men carried by a Fighter Sqn, equiv to about 1 AV. In malaya & DEI most ground crew had already bolted or were left behind. Subs could and did carry large numbers of troops (one S-boat carried out over 100 evacuees in one mission). i think there should be an Evacuation Mission to remove disabled troops (but leave equipment) but this isn't about to happen. They should have a "pickup troops" option like the fast transports do, but with a limit so a fleet of subs dont rock up and do a Dunkerque. PTs DID carry troops and this was one of the more useful missions they performed during the war (but, of course, not in the game). Yep, maybe a troop type ie. Ranger/Commando/Light Infantry could be carried (Brit MTB's etc carried troops around Akyab/Ramree) Allied ships can carry troops as well in the game already. ?? DD's & CL's?? As far as US subs being there to just attack the enemy - fine - as long as you limit the other side to do just what they did during the war. Always the problem, part of why I play with myself. Players learn what the mistakes were and play accordingly - to try to limit one side to adhere to the mistakes while the other side is not is really not reasonable. I think players also look at History and try to use the game to better it,often by "using' the game system and use every loophole they can, in hindsight we will always avoid mistakes that happened. In addition, both sides have far too much intel about the opposition & its abilities. Unfortunately this cant be resolved unless a "Free set up" is allowed, but then we might as well play Battleships. OK - i'll try to respond point by point: AV support evacuation DID happen, and happened fairly frequently, but eventually the Allies lost more and more planes, and so the ability to evacuate folks continually decreased. This is when (from what i understand) people started running off, etc. Hard to evacuate anyone when all your planes are gone. But even up until the last moments, units would try (and in many cases were successful) to evacuate their ground crews as long as they had flying planes... many accounts in Shore's book of the last minute scrambles trying to get personale out of Java, for instance. As far as a "submarine Dunkerque" - ain't gonna happen, not a least at the start of the war. Even if you had 100 subs available (which you don't), the current model only allow up to 60 pts to be carried - most are much less, probably averaging more like 20. That means if you had a mass convergence of your entire sub force, you might get out 100 support squads - which is not even 1/3 of one large HQ unit. Even if you doubled or tripled the limits, it wouldn't allow for huge mass evacuations. You might get an HQ unit out in a trip that has considerable transit time (say PI to OZ). Yes, Allied ships can carry troops as mentioned - even CLs, CAs, and BBs (haven't tried it with BCs). Lastly - i have figured out a way to allow a kind of limited variable setup which would give the Japanese player (and Allied player as well) a lot less information about what they might be facing (and more accurately simulate what they faced in the beginning of the war). i think it COULD be relatively easily added to the game, but it would require some more programming. As the programmers are now tied up with a big project, i don't think it will be implemented any time soon (if ever) but i wil pitch it to the powers that be.

JeffroK -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 11:13:35 PM)
As mentioned, AV support is more than men, I doubt too many Petrol Bowsers fitted in the back of a P40, what was lifted out was purely personnel I would assume that the subs in the PI, DEI, Malaya could lift enough fragments to evacuate enough cadres for rebuilding later. I've played this for about 2 years, Hey, the Allies can use their combat ships in a Fast transport TF to lift troops, How embarrassment[8\|] Its a pity the variable setups were not more substantial, I've moddeded a stronger Allied setup, slightly better aircraft (Hurris replace Buffs, P40E replace P40B, Beauforts replace Blenheims) and added 5-10 exp & morale to Ground troops. Playing as the japanese adds a different challenge (they still overpower but at a higher cost) Hope the programmers look at this after they finish this mysterious project they are on[:'(]

rtrapasso -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/22/2007 11:26:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffK As mentioned, AV support is more than men, I doubt too many Petrol Bowsers fitted in the back of a P40, what was lifted out was purely personnel i'm not claiming they got everybody and everything out, but at least a cadre was available. quote: I would assume that the subs in the PI, DEI, Malaya could lift enough fragments to evacuate enough cadres for rebuilding later. From what i've read, it was mainly support/HQ types and key personale that got out. The Allies could not benefit from hindsight available to the player otherwise they might have made more attempts to get folks out. (IJ players get that 20/20 hindsight as well.) quote: I've played this for about 2 years, Hey, the Allies can use their combat ships in a Fast transport TF to lift troops, How embarrassment[8\|] Its a pity the variable setups were not more substantial, I've moddeded a stronger Allied setup, slightly better aircraft (Hurris replace Buffs, P40E replace P40B, Beauforts replace Blenheims) and added 5-10 exp & morale to Ground troops. Playing as the japanese adds a different challenge (they still overpower but at a higher cost) Hope the programmers look at this after they finish this mysterious project they are on[:'(] We shall see...[8D]

ctangus -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/24/2007 5:01:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Hoplosternum I have never considered cadre evacuation an especially gamey tactic. It has many costs including: - The Patrols, Warships and Subs doing it are tied up for a long time. - Refilling these units takes along time and for many nationalities locks up valuable Infantry squads in units that will not fight again (allied base forces should not be fighting by the time they are rebuilt). - It uses up your PP points in the early months so that units from the WC, leader changes and UK ship recalls cannot be prevented. - Many units such as the Dutch and Philippine units have poor leaders, low morale, poor fighting stats and will not fill up for years if ever. So the allied player has to ask himself, even though he can evacuate cadres of nearly everything, should he? There are really only a few units that are useful - The US Fleet HQ, the two Australian Brigades in Malaya, the US Marine Regiment, combat engineers and the Tanks in Philippines. That's about it. And even those won't be refilled for many, many months when you have plenty of reinforcements anyway. So none are vital. The base forces lock up valuable infantry squads. IME the Indian and UK Brigades saved from Malaya rarely refill in the first year and a half. There are too many, better, partially filled Divisions arriving as reinforcements and too few replacements - at least in stock. The "Commonwealth" ones will refill but are hopeless. etc. etc. Cadre rescue does give the allies a little more flexibility though. The US gets plenty of early large reinforcement base forces. So they don't need a few small ones from the PI and DEI (that need to be rebuilt). But if they do rebuild them they can stick a base force on every island in '43. It's not exactly a power gaming move - it probably costs more than it's worth. But it is a nice to have if you do it. IMO gamey moves are those exploit the game mechanics to do things that were impossible in real life, much more effective than in real life or were things that could be done in real life but are too 'cheap' in WITP. Evacuating cadres has a fairly high cost for the benefits it brings so does not really count. Good summary - I don't consider it gamey either. Rather I consider it a strategic choice and perhaps a dubious one at that. There's only a very limited utility in cadre evacs. You've made several good points. I'll add a couple more: From the Japanese POV I'd be extremely happy to see less resistance in the SRA. It might provide me the time to achieve more ambitious plans. And I'd far prefer allied subs doing evacs rather than hunting on my SLOCs. Particularly if allied sub doctrine is off. From the allied POV I'm currently of the opinion that it's generally better to free up 1 strong unit from the West Coast than 6 weak units from the DEI or Phillipines. I use the units in the SRA to fight in the SRA. I don't consider evac until a unit has no more utility in the fight. I do end up saving a few, but I certainly lose most of them. However I'd rather fight there than on the shores of India or Australia.

spence -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/24/2007 9:14:53 PM)
For the most part I leave the combat units in the DEI/PI to die in place but I find the defense of OZ considerably enhanced the aviation support of cadre Base Forces pulled out of the DEI and PI. Since the aviation support comes from a general pool rather than a nation specific one that part of the unit builds up fairly rapidly and allows the Allies to generate some mass of bombers/fighters with which to counter the 2nd phase Japanese thrusts.

wworld7 -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (11/25/2007 1:44:19 AM)
I am sure many would disagree with me, but I only evacuate WHOLE units. This is just a personal choice.

madgamer2 -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (12/28/2007 10:29:14 PM)
are you saying that using subs early is a waste of time? Should one not send any out on sub patrol? I like the idea of using subs to move units but won't the IJN have no problems moving to the Indies and PI, and does this make a difference? Lawrence

Alfred -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (12/29/2007 11:30:21 AM)
madgamer, Not all the early war subs suck on patrol. The British and Dutch subs on patrol will fire their torpedoes - just make certain that you put them on patrol in areas where you can fly naval search to help raise the DL on enemy TF. The old American "S" class subs will also attack. Alfred

KPAX -> RE: Evacuating cadres? (12/29/2007 11:00:50 PM)
I would always evac the BFs. The CDs, AAs, ARMs and ocasional INF as well. They will have crapy XP, but if you can find a good spot for them to train, they will re-gain that XP. As Allies, you build more units than you can ever use. Exception would be some of the PI INF unit components. Have to just look at those and watch what you want.

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