Snipers shouldn't be able to take Victory hexes!

Snipers shouldn't be able to take Victory hexes! (Full Version)

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Wolverine -> Snipers shouldn't be able to take Victory hexes! (9/13/2000 10:49:00 PM)
That's it. Snipers shouldn't be able to do that. They are so "invisible", that you can easily sneak past enemy to his back Victory hexes. Should be like in Close Combat. No victory hexes for snipers!

Wild Bill -> (9/14/2000 12:13:00 AM)
On the other hand... [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] The human player should take care to protect objectives gained. That is realistic. Sneaky snipers make you do that, at least witha minimal defensive force. So in essence, I agree. A sniper should not be able to take a victory hex, especially behind your lines, but he probably won't be able to if you have properly protected it. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

David Heath -> (9/14/2000 12:38:00 AM)
OK will are looking into making the change that Smipers can not take victory hexes..... now if only get my opponents do that...Grin

Don -> (9/14/2000 3:39:00 AM)
Great! Then you would only have to guard against the 30 displaced tank crews running around! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Don

Charles22 -> (9/14/2000 4:02:00 AM)
Don: Actually, the tank crews are no longer a threat, for all intensive purposes, but then my experience with this version are still young yet. The tank crews have maximum speed of three so that makes them very vulnerable to being useless for taking anything and being easily destructible; unlike the sniper. They do, however still have weapons, but it's unknown as to what (mixed). I have seen them shoot to range three or further, (not like the range 2 of before) so far. A word of warning too, to those who haven't noticed it, the grenade range is now three (watch out tanks with that max. penetration of 70 or so).

Don -> (9/14/2000 5:41:00 AM)
Yeah, I was kidding there, I've never had tank crews take victory hexes. But I just had a campaign battle where the AI threw 42 tanks at my 16, and when I got done destroying all of them it seemed like those crews were everywhere! Thank the Matrix Gods for lots of AT's and strike aircraft! I've also made the major mistake of taking undefended victory hexes and then moving those men elsewhere, only to have the AI take them back later. That won't happen again! Don

troopie -> (9/14/2000 6:19:00 AM)
Snipers should be able to take victory hexes. And so should recce units. It is up to the player to keep adequate rear security. If you don't, you deserve any trouble you get. I just had my headquarters and an SP mortar shot up by a Polish recce team in an area I assumed was secure. HQ survived, the SP mprtar didn't. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

BA Evans -> (9/14/2000 10:17:00 PM)
I agree, I you can't keep your victory hexes guarded, you deserve to have them taken away from you. BA Evans quote: Originally posted by troopie: Snipers should be able to take victory hexes. And so should recce units. It is up to the player to keep adequate rear security. If you don't, you deserve any trouble you get. I just had my headquarters and an SP mortar shot up by a Polish recce team in an area I assumed was secure. HQ survived, the SP mprtar didn't. troopie

Joe Osborne -> (9/15/2000 9:27:00 AM)
Although I agree with the sentiment regarding snipers...they should NOT be able to take vhexes. I don't agree that simply because someone has taken a vhex they don't have to guard them. f a force takes an important road junction, for instance, they don't just keep moving forward oblivious to who's minding the store. There is some form of defense force left to mind the store. As far as I can see from playing the game I don't think that crewmen or snipers should be allowed to occupy an enemy vhex, BUT any other force should. Just my 2 cents. Joe Osborne

Bonzo -> (9/15/2000 11:00:00 AM)
I have a qestion regarding the basic concept of this thread. What is the real difference between a group of crewmen or a sniper and, say a two man recon squad or an anti-tank squad? For the most part, they are all pretty hard to spot and can't hold the V-hex against a determined attack. Or how about my poor beat up Matilda I with a battered hull, suspension damage & broken machinegun. I can't fire a shot, but I should be able to take a V-hex? A unit should not be denied the ability to do this just because a unit is sneaky. What criteria do we use? Where do we draw the line? I feel that the current rules offer a fair, playable game. Just mantain proper security in your rear. Just an opinion. Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

Don -> (9/15/2000 11:35:00 AM)
Right on, Bonzo! If victory hexes are left wide open then heck anything should be able to grab it. But I guess David doesn't agree because on the new list of "fixes" snipers can't take them anymore. I thought he was joking with his post but "ask and you shall recieve"! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] That is what makes Matrix so great! Don

David Heath -> (9/15/2000 11:50:00 AM)
A victory hex is a location and really one man taking a victory hex should not be. IT also brings down the usefullness of snipers an places them more in the role they were attended for. David

Reg -> (9/15/2000 1:17:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Bonzo: I have a qestion regarding the basic concept of this thread. What is the real difference between a group of crewmen or a sniper and, say a two man recon squad or an anti-tank squad?........ In my opinion, the whole point of the game is to reflect history, (not testing what the game will let you get away with....)!! Historically, I feel that regular units were charged with taking and holding ground, which is reflected in the possession of victory hexes. Snipers on the other hand operated by making life as uncomfortable as possible for the enemy (using the minimum of forces) until they vacated the area. This is not taking and holding!! Also, even if the enemy knew a sniper was in their rear, would it force them to react and dispatch a unit to retake the position? I would hardly think that a single sniper would generate enough threat to alter battle plans, which is exactly what the AI would do if a victory objective was retaken. Using that logic, I cannot see why an adhoc group of survivors (crewmen) cannot claim the bit of ground they are sitting on. However, I would not like to see them coordinating like veterans in a setpiece assault. Perhaps just make them ignore the hexes for AI movement but claim them if stumbled upon??? Just an idea tossed up for discussion... Reg. [This message has been edited by Reg (edited September 15, 2000).]

headhunter -> (9/15/2000 3:12:00 PM)
But if a sniper is "making life uncomfortable as possible" for the enemy in a certain area, doesn't he effectively deny control to the enemy ? As long as the sniper is there, the enemy cannot safely traverse the area, and thus the enemy can't say he holds the area. In my oppinion, this is the main function of a sniper. Sure, he could not hold himself against a full squad, but the point is, if you want to use a certain area, then you'll have to take care of that pesky sniper and secure the area first. (Anyone remember "Full Metal Jacket ?") [This message has been edited by headhunter (edited September 15, 2000).]

Reg -> (9/15/2000 5:39:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by headhunter: As long as the sniper is there, the enemy cannot safely traverse the area, and thus the enemy can't say he holds the area. In my oppinion, this is the main function of a sniper. Sure, he could not hold himself against a full squad..... I totally agree with your statement and I had that sort of thought in the back of my mind as I wrote my original message. However, even though your sniper can effectively deny USE of the area to the enemy, you cannot say you control it yourself. I will still stand by my statement that the victory hex represents a piece of territory that the enemy cares about. The presence of a sniper will be a pain in the butt for him tactically but it will not cause him to modify his battle plan the same way that a regular unit staking a claim on it will. (Unless of course he needs to use the area occupied by the sniper but that becomes a tactical problem and not related to victory hex issue as an identical situation could occur anywhere on the map). Some more to think about... Reg. [This message has been edited by Reg (edited September 15, 2000).]

Fredde -> (9/15/2000 6:06:00 PM)
Where's the limit? There's no big difference between a two man recon team and a sniper, except that the sniper probably got more fire power. Can an infantry squad that ran out of ammo hold a hex? Can a heavy truck hold a hex (the crewman defending it with his colt 45 better than the sniper can with his rifle)? Can an unarmed jeep? Plz keep it as is, it might be more realistic to change.. but it's terribly difficult to consider what units are able to hold terrain or not. If so, a whole bunch of units should lose that capability.. and not just snipers.. and that will make it hard to keep track of. And .. as long noone bothers to attack the hex, even my grandmother should be able to control it. If someone takes a victory hex with a sniper, it's terribly easy to throw him out from it again.

Reg -> (9/15/2000 6:54:00 PM)
quote: Originally posted by Fredde: Where's the limit? .... Can an infantry squad that ran out of ammo hold a hex? ... I think you may be missing the point a little bit. Victory hexes are not about whether you are able to physically hold the ground or not. They represent how much the enemy (and you) CARES that you are there. The platoon taking casualties will probably care that the sniper is there but the brigade commander isn't going to throw his carefully crafted battleplan in the trash because of one pesky sniper (easily neutralised), no matter where he is. Any fighting unit (no matter how weak) taking a victory hex is letting the brigade commander know that the enemy is interested taking and holding piece of ground that he wants to keep. This will certainly solicit a response from him. Victory hexes are an artificial mechanism to encourage historical behavior from both the AI and human players. (There are no victory point values on real towns in real wars!!) Just an opinion, not a conviction, Reg

Bonzo -> (9/15/2000 8:55:00 PM)
Again, my opinion only. If a Battalion commander will not change his battle plans to rub out a sniper, will he do it for a recon squad? or a depleted platoon? or a heavy truck? fact is, he won't know WHAT took that particular piece of real estate unless he has it under observation. Without an observer, it could be an entire division [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] A battalion commander is going to allocate a security detail to an important crossroad or hilltop and he would generally set aside a force that would reasonably be able to hold the objective, or have a reaction force that can retake it. Doing this historically accurate thing, any snipers comin' 'round ain't stayin' 'round [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Besides, you have to secure these (and your artillery!!) against commandos and partisans anyway. Or you pay the piper. If v-hexes are a mechanism to force the AI and players to act in a historically relevent way, allowing snipers (& other, low combat power units) to take V-hexes forces them to do something about security in the rear. If we take the power to take V-hexes away from snipers, we should also remove it from forward obsevers (foot & vehicle) all transport & supply units, all crews, all squads containing 2? 3? or less units, all units without a working weapon because that would be historically accurate. Or perhaps we should hard code in a limit on the number of snipers. It gets kind of confusing [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] Anyhow, it doesn't affect my playing either way. Snipers are bought with the "spare change" & you really don't know what will pop out of the woodwork (right WB [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] so I always watch my 6. Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

Nikademus -> (9/15/2000 9:03:00 PM)
it does rather encourage players to place at least a squad or two to guard the hex area.

Joe Osborne -> (9/15/2000 9:10:00 PM)
Bonzo, I think you're right on with this one. After reading this thread and especially the quote I'm noting. I don't think you should remove the ability to take a vhex from any unit(though because of recent programming changes we may lose the sniper). Bonzo is absolutely right...especially the point about holding a vhex with a small defensive force or covering force. If a player uses a sniper as some discrete recon unit (non-historical). He may be sent packing if he tries to capture a vhex that is already protected. I can't think of an individual example right now....(haven't had my coffee yet ) but I know there were many occasions during the war where certain objective were taken when a small recon force or something of that ilk found it unprotected.... Who discovered the open Remagen Bridge? Regards, Joe Osborne quote: Originally posted by Bonzo:A battalion commander is going to allocate a security detail to an important crossroad or hilltop and he would generally set aside a force that would reasonably be able to hold the objective, or have a reaction force that can retake it. Doing this historically accurate thing, any snipers comin' 'round ain't stayin' 'round [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Besides, you have to secure these (and your artillery!!) against commandos and partisans anyway. Or you pay the piper. If v-hexes are a mechanism to force the AI and players to act in a historically relevent way, allowing snipers (& other, low combat power units) to take V-hexes forces them to do something about security in the rear. If we take the power to take V-hexes away from snipers, we should also remove it from forward obsevers (foot & vehicle) all transport & supply units, all crews, all squads containing 2? 3? or less units, all units without a working weapon because that would be historically accurate. Or perhaps we should hard code in a limit on the number of snipers. It gets kind of confusing [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/frown.gif[/img] [/B]

Fredde -> (9/15/2000 10:45:00 PM)
I think letting small units take victory hexes add to the psychology of the game too. Owww.. the victory hex i was stupid enough to leave unguarded just changed color, the enemy is there! But how many? And how many should i send to deal with it. Gives you some interesting decisions to take and even more so with limited intel. Historically, very small forces have triggered big reactions just by showing up in the right time on the right places.

Graf Speer -> (9/15/2000 11:09:00 PM)
To all, Having played Wild Bill's treacherous small unit Ramelle scenario, I think here is a possibly prime example of how preventing a sniper unit from capturing and/or holding onto a victory hex may be in error. IOW's, in really small custom scenarios where even a single man can possibly turn the tide of war, the lone sniper (like "Jackson" in the Ramelle scen.) should still be accorded all the importance and weight of a "platoon" sized squad, yes? Or another way to see a problem with limiting snipers and "crews" is where a platoon might conceivably be reduced to a "last man standing" unit and yet he would be able to capture such a hex whereas a surviving sniper would not? (not that I have witnessed nor can I recall a platoon surviving with only one man left in its original unit). But bottom line, anything that can move (other than airplanes) should be able to capture 'victory' hexes . . . whether they can hold onto them is likely another story. Albert

Wild Bill -> (9/16/2000 3:31:00 AM)
This is a great discussion, guys. I am really enjoying the input and nobody is pissed. That is great [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Non-life threatening discussion is my cup of tea. You guys are showing maturity and respect while strongly arguing for your point of view. Now THAT is how you debate, instead of that old "well if you hadn't crawled out from under a rock" type of argument. Thanks fellas, for showing dignity in this discussion. Yes Bonzo, you are right! Old sneaky me [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img]. Ah, but what is life without surprises [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img]? ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

Tom Proudfoot -> (9/16/2000 3:51:00 AM)
I think the main issue with snipers is that they are very difficult to spot and have large movement allowances compared to other infantry. Also, since I think they are all recon units, you can pretty much move them wherever you want, even with C&C on. So it is pretty easy to grab a cheap win against a human player, especially if you buy a bunch of snipers with that strategy in mind. Tom

3rd Recon -> (9/16/2000 5:07:00 AM)
Hot topic [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] As a former marine sniper(I graduated in 1988 from Marine Corps Sniper school in Camp Pendleton) I would have to agree with the posts saying we need to limit all units then. can a truck driver with a 45. hold a victory hex, if a sniper cant? I like it the way it is. When I went out it was with a two to four man team and like in an above post, there are no victory hexes in real life..its just for the game. But when I was told to hold a cross road or building, we did and quite well I might add. In a way, it was my victory hex or objective. It should be the players job to guard his rear. No Bn. Commander wouold advance his forces without protection. In the game, I've been carried away only to seea hex I took turns before change. Like stated above I had to make a decision as to what to send over to retake it. I sent a squad to find a stugIII and lost the squad. Never made that mistake again. Learn to protect your rear. What about Wild Bills excelent scenario(the name escapes me) with the commandos. the buildings represent targets that are guarded or destroyed. In theory 1 man(resistance, sas, RM commando, oss, ect) could and did in the second world war take out such targets. So if you eliminate the ability of snipers to take an objective you take away from the game. There are many accounts of snipers holding ground in lots of conflicts.(not a victory hex, but just as important to the man holding it.) Now I know the fixes in V4.1 thread says this argument is too late, but what about a button in the pref. screen that lets you turn off all units that are small from takeing a hex(at teams, sniper, trucks, jeeps, crews...ect...). This would make verone happy and I would rather wait for that than get V4.1 and lose my ability to play the way it is now. I'll be the first to say I hate it when a destroyed tank sends its crew into one of my hexes. tankers I've talked to said if the tank goes, there going to get the hell out of the area. Just for laughs then, why don't the crews of shot down A/C bail out and then we could use them to capyure hexes. Why arn't snipers in the oobs of the rifle companies they come with? what of airborne snipers? They could just as easily jump into Arnhem as they did and hold objectives. Just food for thought. I love the game. I think a button option would be better. 3rd Recon Semper Fi

U235 -> (9/16/2000 5:27:00 AM)
Recon, I'm with you, I think (especially in spec ops scenarios) it would take away from the essence of the game. Could this mean another radio button in the preferance screen? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] If not, I vote that this feature remains as is. Really, really enjoying the game. Seems like a new product with each battle. Impossible to get bored with, thanks for the superior work Team Matrix. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]

troopie -> (9/16/2000 6:12:00 AM)
Again and Again, snipers should be able to take and hold victory hexes. If you leave your rear unguarded, you deserve whatever trouble you get. In my formations, snipers never work alone. They are attached to specforce units or infantry platoons. They function as part of the platoon. Limiting who can take what limits the ability to do reconnaissance in force. I will often use recce units to seize unoccupied objectives if they can do so safely. Snipers are often attached to recce units. I do not wish to lose that flexibility. troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete

Reg -> (9/16/2000 7:04:00 AM)
quote: Originally posted by troopie: Again and Again, snipers should be able to take and hold victory hexes. If you leave your rear unguarded, you deserve whatever trouble you get. In my formations, snipers never work alone. They are attached to specforce units or infantry platoons. They function as part of the platoon. Limiting who can take what limits the ability to do reconnaissance in force. I will often use recce units to seize unoccupied objectives if they can do so safely. Snipers are often attached to recce units. I do not wish to lose that flexibility. troopie I think everyone in this discussion is heading in the same general direction but by slightly differing paths. I totally agree with the above posting with the single exception of the sniper's ability to take v-hexes. As I have said before, the whole point of the game is to encourage historical behaviour (hopefully without coding the system so inflexibly that it rules out reasonable what ifs). I applaud troopie's use of the spec force/recon units as that is what they were historically raised for and they quite validly pose a rear area threat to which the enemy must react. The presence of the snipers will certainly add some punch to the force. However, snipers on their own are do not pose such a threat and will not solict a similar response from the enemy brigade commander. The whole issue here is the impact of historical doctrine. Single snipers were not used to take and hold ground and they were percieved as such by the enemy. By allowing snipers to take hexes we are encoraging the use of snipers in a non-historical manner due to their special abilities. Thes abilities were assigned to make snipers effective in their primary role (area denial), not make them super infiltrators. There are other units for this role (such as the very formation troopie describes). 3rd Recon: I'm sure sure sniper can and actually do a fantastic job of defending a location, it's just that I think we are dealing with a different issue here. That of whether the presence of a sniper will cause the enemy to modify his battle plans via the mechanism of the victory hex. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Great discussion guys, Reg.

Bonzo -> (9/16/2000 7:44:00 AM)
The thing is that passing a tank over a hex, and continuing merrily on your way is not taking and holding ground, it's a reconnaissance. You are holding nothing. To really hold ground, you have to have people on it or observing it and able to intervene. Now I can live with snipers not taking V-hexs, but let's deal with the whole issue at one sitting. If we take the viewpoint that snipers cannot take v-hexes due to limited combat power, we need to treat all other similar units the same. Unarmed units (meaning all units CURRENTLY without offensive weapons) and units armed solely with self defence weapons CANNOT take V-hexs if snipers cannot. An unarmed tank can no more hold ground than a taxi. It would be silly to say that a sniper has less ability to hold ground or indicates a "greater interest in the ground by the enemy" than a jeep or a bren carrier with a jammed MG. I think that depleted squads should be able to take & hold ground (ala Porkchop Hill). But really, is this that big of a problem? Does the code need to be rewritten or do we just have to mind our security & set a sqad or 2 of 2nd line troops & an AT team in the gemeral area? Hey, it's just a game [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Bonzo ------------------ Robert (Bonzo) Lindsay, Coordinator 28th (North-west) Battalion Headquarters http://dreadnaught.home.icq.com [email]nwbattalion@icqmail.com[/email]

Graf Speer -> (9/16/2000 8:16:00 AM)
Question to those 'absolutists' seeking non-snipe intervention into their plans to rule the hexes: If a sniper is the last man standing in a cornfield valued with a preset of 100 pts, are you guys saying this guy cannot succeed to seize the hex? A sniper is no less a man and just because he's devious and sneaky and skulkin' and hard to 'see' doesn't mean he cannot hold Ramelle all by himself if fates be with him! Let snipers capture hexes if they can and dammit if only weenies fight on the other side and cannot oust a sniper from those hexes then the sniper deserves those hexes and all the babes in the surrounding hostiles and brothels nearby [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Snipers are army men, too, dammit! [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Albert ------------------ The Good Nazi

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