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Ike99 -> SS (11/22/2007 2:45:43 AM)

Perhaps this is a dumb question, let´s see.

How do you get the famous ¨SS¨ sig runes on a units name. My keyboard seems to be all out of sig runes.



Veers -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 2:46:45 AM)

Usually it just does it...



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 2:54:55 AM)

quote:

Usually it just does it...


What do you mean ¨it just does it¨? [&:]



Essro -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 3:29:42 AM)

Press the "Ctrl" key and the "A" key at the same time to get SS runes in the editor

Not a dumb question at all.



MPHopcroft1 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 3:36:24 AM)

That surprises me, actually. Even in a WWII game, it is usually considered polite to avoid direct usage of Nazi imagery wherever possible, especially if you want to sell copies in Europe. And the SS will always be associated with the very worst of Nazism -- deportations, mass executions, death camps, that sort of thing -- and not for valor on the battlefield (and one could question the virtue of battlefield valor in an evil cause, but that's a question for ethicists and not game publishers).



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 3:41:28 AM)

quote:

Press the "Ctrl" key and the "A" key at the same time to get SS runes in the editor


Give that man a cigar.


[image]local://upfiles/19240/1D58EE0630DA4B5D8F66877C4FFA292A.jpg[/image]



desert -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 3:46:42 AM)

You can do the same with Ctrl + B



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 4:07:21 AM)

quote:

That surprises me, actually. Even in a WWII game, it is usually considered polite to avoid direct usage of Nazi imagery wherever possible, especially if you want to sell copies in Europe. And the SS will always be associated with the very worst of Nazism -- deportations, mass executions, death camps, that sort of thing -- and not for valor on the battlefield (and one could question the virtue of battlefield valor in an evil cause, but that's a question for ethicists and not game publishers


That´s politicaly correct crap too. If you have a scenario calling for the SS Totenkopf division in it why not use the correct symbols? The SS sig ruin and the swastika? Why dumb down the history?

If one has that attitude why stop with the Nazis, as if they were the only bad guys? Let´s ban the sickle and hammer of the Soviet Union too. They had gulags and killed millions of people too, commited rapes by the thousands of German women at wars end.

Then we can move over to the US Civil War and ban the stars and bars because they had slaves, then get rid of the Roman symbol, they had slaves too. Ban the American flag too. They have the CIA and propped up one South American dictator after another that killed 1,000´s of people. Oh yeah, Abu Ghared in Iraq. Yeah, the American flag has definately got to go too.

The point is if we start banning symbols we´ll have to ban all of them and end up with all white flags in war games.[:D]





Veers -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 5:00:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Usually it just does it...


What do you mean ¨it just does it¨? [&:]


I see you already got an answer, but, far as I know it used to just 'do it' when you put SS together.
But, either I'm just completely wrong, or it doesn't do it anymore. [:D]



sPzAbt653 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 5:27:54 AM)

'The point is if we start banning symbols we´ll have to ban all of them and end up with all white flags in war games.'

Well put Ike, polite avoidance of Nazi imagery is nowadays known as political correctness, which is the politically correct way of saying 'propaganda' and 'revisionist'. All governments were and are guilty of the tactic of manipulating history to their own purpose, the main objective being to keep their public ignorant of history and preventing the people from making collectively intelligent decisions based on fact. Hiding the SS runes and their meaning does far more damage than having people know what they stood for from 1933 to 1945, and in the periods before and after. If it hurts, it teaches.

Sorry Hopcroft, I'm not attacking you, I just hought you're comments required something.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.



ColinWright -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:48:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99
The point is if we start banning symbols we´ll have to ban all of them and end up with all white flags in war games.[:D]





Come to that, playing war games at all is open to moral criticism. We should all hug each other and enjoy watching the bunnies nibbling on the grass. Learn to share.



Silvanski -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:50:41 AM)

Bunnies? This calls for a modified eqp db[sm=00000289.gif]



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:55:17 AM)

quote:

'The point is if we start banning symbols we´ll have to ban all of them and end up with all white flags in war games.'

Well put Ike, polite avoidance of Nazi imagery is nowadays known as political correctness, which is the politically correct way of saying 'propaganda' and 'revisionist'. All governments were and are guilty of the tactic of manipulating history to their own purpose, the main objective being to keep their public ignorant of history and preventing the people from making collectively intelligent decisions based on fact. Hiding the SS runes and their meaning does far more damage than having people know what they stood for from 1933 to 1945, and in the periods before and after. If it hurts, it teaches.

Sorry Hopcroft, I'm not attacking you, I just hought you're comments required something.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.


The victors write the history books and make the rules up. [;)]

Imagine if Japan had won world war what would have been said and the trials convened about the fire bombings and atomic bombings of Japan. [X(]

Lemay said himself if we lose the war i´ll be convicted of war crimes.

The 509th bomber wings symbol would definately be ¨banned.¨

[:D]

But seriously though...I think historical wargames are recreations of historic events (the battles) so the correct symbols are prudent. In much the same way as reenactors of the Civil War or WW2 use the Confederate flag and Swastica. Or even with war movies, Saving Private Ryan for example, the use of these symbols is warranted simply because it´s part of the historical aspects of what´s being presented.

I think the reason for ¨banning¨ symbols, for example Nazi symbols, is because we don´t want people glorifying the Nazis or their ideology.

I think that´s the general idea with banning symbols.
However I think using these symbols in a historical context, historical wargames, historical movies , historical live reenactments, history books, museums, etc., do not do this.

So I don´t have a problem with any symbols in a historical context. As a matter of fact I want the correct symbols, no matter what they might be or from what time period for the historical accuracy.



ColinWright -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 8:22:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

'The point is if we start banning symbols we´ll have to ban all of them and end up with all white flags in war games.'

Well put Ike, polite avoidance of Nazi imagery is nowadays known as political correctness, which is the politically correct way of saying 'propaganda' and 'revisionist'. All governments were and are guilty of the tactic of manipulating history to their own purpose, the main objective being to keep their public ignorant of history and preventing the people from making collectively intelligent decisions based on fact. Hiding the SS runes and their meaning does far more damage than having people know what they stood for from 1933 to 1945, and in the periods before and after. If it hurts, it teaches.

Sorry Hopcroft, I'm not attacking you, I just hought you're comments required something.

Those who forget history are condemned to repeat it.


The victors write the history books and make the rules up. [;)]

Imagine if Japan had won world war what would have been said and the trials convened about the fire bombings and atomic bombings of Japan. [X(]


Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime.

In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way. It'd be interesting to see the reaction if significant elements in Germany started started openly advocating similar ideas.
quote:





Lemay said himself if we lose the war i´ll be convicted of war crimes.

The 509th bomber wings symbol would definately be ¨banned.¨

[:D]


Well, on the other hand, there's the matter of intent and of degree. LeMay et al weren't just killing Japanese because this was seen as a good in itself -- as the Germans were when they were killing the Jews. They were killing Japanese because they thought this was the fastest -- and ultimately, the least bloody -- way to victory. Also, they didn't come even close to killing half of the world's supply of Japanese. More like 1%.
quote:



But seriously though...I think historical wargames are recreations of historic events (the battles) so the correct symbols are prudent. In much the same way as reenactors of the Civil War or WW2 use the Confederate flag and Swastica. Or even with war movies, Saving Private Ryan for example, the use of these symbols is warranted simply because it´s part of the historical aspects of what´s being presented.

I think the reason for ¨banning¨ symbols, for example Nazi symbols, is because we don´t want people glorifying the Nazis or their ideology.

I think that´s the general idea with banning symbols.
However I think using these symbols in a historical context, historical wargames, historical movies , historical live reenactments, history books, museums, etc., do not do this.

So I don´t have a problem with any symbols in a historical context. As a matter of fact I want the correct symbols, no matter what they might or from what time period for the historical accuracy.


Yeah -- but here in America, there's no real danger that we're going to become a genocidal fascist dictatorship. In a lot of Europe, such a turn is perceived as a very real possibility -- if only because in one case it actually did happen -- and so the ideology has to be clearly labeled as wrong. You can't allow Nazi parades if there's a real chance a million people will turn up.

I suppose child porn would be a good analogy. Well, if everyone was just like me, and presumably, just like you, there'd be no need to legislate against it. No one would be interested in the first place. On the other hand, since some people do have leanings that way, the general consensus is that such impulses must be clearly labelled as wrong. Hence child porn laws. We don't want people in any way, shape, manner, or form thinking it's okay to have a go at the six year old next door. Want to be clear on that point.

The logic would seem to be similar for those nations that feel impelled to ban SS runes, etc. You can have the Hammer and Sickle -- no one is interested in a return to the good old days of mass famine and nation-wide slave labor camps. You can have satanic imagery -- we're not about to have a major outbreak of devil-worship. But in some countries, no you can't have Nazi symbols. The dogma of intolerance, aggressive nationalism, and homicidal xenophobia taps into urges that are very much alive.

So I'd certainly feel annoyed if they tried banning the Swastika here -- probably start scrawling it on walls all over the place in response. However, if other societies feel it to be necessary, I'd say that's their perogative.



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 11:34:55 AM)

quote:

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.


It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.[;)]

quote:

LeMay et al weren't just killing Japanese because this was seen as a good in itself -- as the Germans were when they were killing the Jews.


And how many peasants were killed in Vietnam from US B52 saturation bombings in the densely populated Meking Delta and its purpose was....what? If there was a military objective to it I haven´t discovered it.

quote:

Yeah -- but here in America, there's no real danger that we're going to become a genocidal fascist dictatorship.


(cough)
waterboarding
(cough)
Neocon Agenda
(cough)
Quantonimo Bay
(cough)
WMDs
(cough)
(cough)
Iraq
(cough)
Abu Gharib
(cough)
Fox News
(cough)
A New American Century
(cough)
secret prisons
(cough)

Wake up and smell the fascism mate. But as far as wargames go the symbols are non political and are only for historical purposes.

quote:

The logic would seem to be similar for those nations that feel impelled to ban SS runes, etc. You can have the Hammer and Sickle -- no one is interested in a return to the good old days of mass famine and nation-wide slave labor camps.


I wouldn´t be so sure of that. I can tell you the threat of Communism is still very much alive and where I am we do still get 1,000´s and 1,000´s of morons parading down the street under the Sickle and Hammer wishing for Communism. Something I despise. But, blacking out the sickle and hammer graphics file from my copy of TOAW 3 seems like feel good, silly politically correct nonsense to me. I´ve seen some German TOAW III AAR´s and before they post their screen shots they MS Paint all the swasticas out on their screen shot map before posting. Seems ridiculous to me in this context.



[image]local://upfiles/19240/58504FD75B6C45738BCF726F93143372.jpg[/image]


I did see on another wargame forum some Germans were speaking on this exact topic. I understand for the purposes of historical documentaries, movies, historical things like this they are given a waiver to display these symbols as long as it is a historical accuracy thing. Reason why they can show the Swastica in movies, history books, etc., but will throw out a shipment of Captain America comic books that display a swastica on page XX. Captain America not being a ¨historical¨ thing you understand. I think historical wargames should fall under this category for waiver too.

One of the Germans on there did say they had ordered a copy of ¨The Burning Blue¨ (london blitz game) and one of the plane counters has a swastica on it. I don´t know, don´t have it. Anyways, customs stopped it but he convinced them to let him have it by saying in the Battle for Britain some German planes had swasticas on them and it was only for historical purposes. He said they let him have it. First time I´ve ever heard of such a thing so maybe even in Germany there starting to recognise the swastica in historical wargames is only for historical purposes and not anything political.

I like the Swastica, Sickle & Hammer, SS, Confederate Flag, Islamic Jihadist, Khmer Rouge, Viet Cong, Christain Crusader Cross and every other symbol in my wargames just as they were/are historicaly.
quote:

I suppose child porn would be a good analogy.

Child Porn and historical symbols in wargames a good anology? hmmm...no.

Yeah, well whatever. Now leave me alone and let me go change into my SS reproduction uniform, light all the candles on my swastica flag draped Nazi altar and pray to Hitlers spirit. [:D] [:D] [:D]




golden delicious -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 12:04:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime.


Yeah. At school, I got called a racist for refusing to denounce the atomic bombings.

quote:

So I'd certainly feel annoyed if they tried banning the Swastika here -- probably start scrawling it on walls all over the place in response. However, if other societies feel it to be necessary, I'd say that's their perogative.


The only problem is that with a global community and a global marketplace their predelictions become internationalised. Go find a Swastika in Hearts of Iron. You'll be looking for a long time. Worse, for those of us blessed with membership of the European Union, there's the very real possibility this sort of thing will become law across the whole body. Imagine the opposition; "So you approve of Nazi symbolism?"



golden delicious -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 12:10:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

Wake up and smell the fascism mate.


You can say a number of things about modern America- a lot of them not very pleasant. However it's an outrageous stretch of the definition of "Fascism" to apply it to the current government of the United States. You should read Mussolini's article on the subject. I won't go into the other areas where I think you're mistaken as I'm sure you've rejected the same arguments before.

quote:

I wouldn´t be so sure of that. I can tell you the threat of Communism is still very much alive and where I am we do still get 1,000´s and 1,000´s of morons parading down the street under the Sickle and Hammer wishing for Communism.


Basically harmless, though. How did the communist party poll in the last few French elections? How about semi-fascist anti-immigration parties?



vahauser -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 1:42:24 PM)

As I recall, Mussolini said that with hindsight he would have changed the name of fascism to corporatism.




17poundr -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 3:17:10 PM)

This is true in some EU countries it is illegal to show the SS runes...

Germany is one for shure... I remember back in the early 80's, record collectors would try to get records of the rock band KISS that were for the German market, as the band's logo, had SS style 's' letters in it, and for the West German market, they were changed to resemble a 'Z' letter reverced...

I'm not shure, but I belive in the old Soviet era Russia the SS runes were neither very favoured either...

A good point. But, I belive as this is trying to simulate historical battles, that the SS units, should be as realistic as possible, why not have them in black, and with two normal large 'S' letters, but give each Division, it's own symbol... This way, there would be a feel of historical authencity, but the offending SS letters would not be present, I do not belive that many people who were not into military history, or war gaming, would recongnize say the key symbol that came from the name of Sepp Dietrich...

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...



17poundr -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 4:08:04 PM)

Anyway, especially with the Swastika it can get confusing, as it's found in ancient Finnish sources as a symbol of 'good luck' and/or solar energy...

In modern Hinduism the 'Swastik' as it's called there, is considered the sun symbol of somekind... (I could be mixing things here).

Also, in some Buddhist thanka's I have seen this ancient symbol...

So, when you see a Swastik symbol on a ww2 Finnish airplane or tank for example, please remember that it had nothing to do with the Nazi party, and was taken from the ancient Finnish symbol... Although the Finns did change the swastik for a blue and white roundel for the air forces and armoured forces after ww2...

[image]local://upfiles/24674/AC743DFF28184A61B249829BB1719283.jpg[/image]



golden delicious -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 4:34:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

In modern Hinduism the 'Swastik' as it's called there, is considered the sun symbol of somekind... (I could be mixing things here).


This is the origin (more or less) of the symbol. Hitler borrowed it from Indian Aryan civilisation.

quote:

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...


Why not? It just worries me that some people don't feel that they should be trusted to see Nazi symbolism in case they become magically brainwashed. It seems like an extension of the theory that the Germans were completely innocent and were just under the control of a handful of super-evil Nazis.



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 4:48:26 PM)

quote:

You can say a number of things about modern America- a lot of them not very pleasant. However it's an outrageous stretch of the definition of "Fascism" to apply it to the current government of the United States.


I´m saying if we ban historical symbols in wargames because of feel good politics we´ll end up with two white flags facing each other. Roll out an American flag to your average person in the middle east and ask them what this symbol stands for and if they like it. I think you can guess what they´ll say. [;)]

I can tell you what the reply will be in Latin America where I am will be...something along the lines of ¨Yankee imperialist go home¨ or ¨fascist, fuera Bush¨ Something like that. Personally I don´t like when Bush comes here because every time he does there is a riot. [:D][:D]

So it´s all very much perspective as to where you are and what symbols are politically correct. But in a wargaming context, as we are talking about here, accurate symbology, past & present, hold no political value and are only used for historical purposes.

I think that´s pretty much all wargamers. Besides, if a black man has a US civil war game and is offended by the Confederate flag in it, he can be free to black it out. If an Arab man is playing a wargame with an American flag in it and is offended, he can be free to black it out. If an American is offended by the swastica in his game, he can be free to black it out. So on and so on. No one is pushing a symbol on anyone someone else feels offended by. Everyone should be free to choose on a personal level what symbols they will use in their wargames.

But passing across the board legislation that criminalizes 3 guys pushing a swastica chit around on an economic income chart of ¨War in Russia¨ at a kitchen table seems a bit absurd.[8|]

Not exactly on par with marching through Brandenburg Gate with Nazi flags flying now is it? [:D]

Well anyways, my ¨SS¨ question was answered and yes, I´ll use it in TOAW scenarios calling for it, as well as every other symbol from every other time period I play. Everyone else if free to do as they wish.

quote:

Basically harmless, though. How did the communist party poll in the last few French elections


I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara? But I still use the Sickle and Hammer when playing Barbarossa and I´m still surviving...somehow. [;)][:D]





golden delicious -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 5:13:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

I´m saying if we ban historical symbols in wargames because of feel good politics we´ll end up with two white flags facing each other. Roll out an American flag to your average person in the middle east and ask them what this symbol stands for and if they like it. I think you can guess what they´ll say. [;)]


Sure. I imagine one could have achieved something similar in the Soviet Union during the Cold War.

quote:

I can tell you what the reply will be in Latin America where I am will be...something along the lines of ¨Yankee imperialist go home¨ or ¨fascist, fuera Bush¨


All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.

quote:

I wish that were true. Basically harmless to you and where you are, not where I am. Ever heard of Castro, Chavez, Che Guevara?


Well fortunately two of these are dead and one is on the way out. I do take your point- but on the whole real, thoroughbred communism has been given a complete testdrive by humanity, and they've opted to go for the economy model. We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.



a white rabbit -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 6:17:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


All I can say is that there's a difference between the United States and George Bush.



..really[X(][X(]

..is that the US as a whole or just the bits that didn't vote for him...twice...



a white rabbit -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 6:21:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

We were never really able to get Fascism off the lot- and there's a temptation to go back and fire up the gas for another go.


..i thought you'd tried that, albeit modified slightly, with dear lovable Maggie, or maybe i imagined all that social unrest and how hard it was on the feet...[8D]



golden delicious -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 6:42:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..i thought you'd tried that, albeit modified slightly, with dear lovable Maggie,


Margaret Thatcher is virtually the polar opposite of Fascism, since the latter is a highly socialist and xenophobic doctrine, whilst Thatcherism is the ultimate in market-driven free trade capitalism.

What you mean is a) Fascism has a very bad reputation b) you strongly disapprove of Margaret Thatcher despite the numerous and obvious benefits which her ministry bestowed on this country and c) you have no qualms about drawing completely false analogies in order to make what is by now a really rather tired and failed argument.

quote:

or maybe i imagined all that social unrest


Yes, it hurt. Yes, it worked.



sstevens06 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 6:49:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ike99

quote:

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.


It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.[;)]

...



Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?



sstevens06 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:00:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: 17poundr

The Skull symbol of the Totenkopf div, shoudnt be used though (imho)...




The skull & crossbones symbol was certainly not exclusive to the SS "Death's Head" Div. WW1-era German Hussars, WW2 German Army (non-SS) Armored Troops, US Navy Fighter Squadron VF-17 "Jolly Rogers", not to mention pirates throught the ages and a certain shadowy fraternity in a prominent US Ivy League university all use(d) more or less the same symbol...[:'(]


[image]http://www.f-14association.com/stories-04-02.jpg[/image]

There's one of these in the air museum at the Willow Grove NAS just a few miles down the road from me!



JAMiAM -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:11:19 PM)

Guys, while I applaud the civility that this thread has shown, so far, remember that the discussion of current political events is one of the taboo subjects here at Matrix. Let's keep the topic strictly on topic so I don't have to lock down a second thread in a week. There are other web sites where that type of discussion are more appropriate.



Ike99 -> RE: SS (11/22/2007 7:29:52 PM)


quote:

Not all that different from what goes on now. There's a fair-sized school that adheres to such notions as (a) the Rape of Nanking didn't happen, (b) Japan was opposing White colonial aggression in Asia, and (c) the dropping of the atomic bombs was an indefensible war crime. In a sense, they might as well have won. They come close to writing the history books that way.


quote:

It will be interesting what the history books in the US will read in 20 years on the war on terror as well.


quote:

Guess that depends on whether we win, doesn't it?


It might also depend if Mr.Bush is seriously contemplating using nuclear weapons in airstrikes against Iran.

That will just go over reallll smooth in world opinion not to mention the history books no?

It won´t matter if they´re ¨bunker buster¨ nukes or whatever. You use the word ¨Nuclear Attack¨ and that´s all that needs to be said. The rest is just trimmings. [:D]




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