Need some help with surface tactics (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Modern] >> Larry Bond's Harpoon - Commander's Edition



Message


Johnus -> Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 4:36:24 AM)

Playing the "Duel Large Surface Action" scenario from the first set and I'm, ah, not winning. What do you try to do as Nato ?? Wait until you are close enough to saturate the Soviet Fleet's defences with a massive attack ?? When I fire as soon as I can get some ordinance in range, my missiles seem to get picked off by the defenses.

I'm new to Harpoon. This game is a lot of fun. I thought the graphics might be a turnoff, but not so. They are clear and work well enough. The game brings back memories of Red Storm Rising, which I will now read again.




Shark7 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 5:45:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Playing the "Duel Large Surface Action" scenario from the first set and I'm, ah, not winning. What do you try to do as Nato ?? Wait until you are close enough to saturate the Soviet Fleet's defences with a massive attack ?? When I fire as soon as I can get some ordinance in range, my missiles seem to get picked off by the defenses.

I'm new to Harpoon. This game is a lot of fun. I thought the graphics might be a turnoff, but not so. They are clear and work well enough. The game brings back memories of Red Storm Rising, which I will now read again.


Yep, you are usually better if you can saturate the target, let them waste their missiles in multiple small attacks as you close the distance. Also, if you have some submarines available, using them to weaken the Soviet surface force can prove usefull. Torpedoes can't be shot down.

Also, if it comes down to it, get that Iowa class in gun range. The Soviets had nothing to match or withstand it.




mack2 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 5:54:39 AM)

In this mission, the submarines you get are a great asset. I remember wrecking the entire soviet formation in an old version with the Improved LA class sub. The main targets however are the Kirov, and the 2 Slava classes.

Surface wise, you can only throw out a maximum of 44 Tomahawks from the SAG, which is most likely not going to be enough against the full soviet group (they are slow). It's probably best to let the Tico VLS and Leahy to soak up any missile attack, and get into harpoon range and throw everything you have at the Soviets. If you get a sub into a good position, you should be able to tip the balance to your side.

I've also played this mission with it ending in a gun duel, which the Iowa will always win. That would probably be a most terrifying experience (especially if you get the sverdlov's) for the Soviet sailors.

edit - I loaded this up as Nato, I got an early sosus contact on the soviets and chased them all the way to iceland.

I was a few minutes away from harpoon launch range (and I'd only shot the sub tomahawks) and then this popped up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/davidbowieWAU/HCE2.jpg

Awesome. Keflavik is going to get an unscheduled fireworks show.

After a huge exchange of missiles, I had lost Virginia to a regular missile, and Wisconsin and Leyte Gulf to a single nuclear shipwreck hitting Leyte Gulf.

After unleashing every SAM against the soviets, I closed for a gun duel after sinking a Sovremenny with Sea Skua's from the British helos. After a good early exchange, the 2nd sverdlov annihilated the ships, the first must have had it's gun mounts damaged by the SAM strikes, and I lost every ship. They were going 8 knots though, so I sent my sub after them. Unfortunately he got sunk whilst I was trying to catch up.

After that, the last sub failed to find the group again, and I shut down the scenario.

They lost about half their fleet, and also exploded a nuclear weapon near Keflavik.

I probably should have withdrew the fleet after the last missile attacks.

My 2nd play through was a very different affair. The british sub started close to the soviets, and moved in, it was discovered trying to get inside the formation, but still launched 6 torps. They sunk a Slava and a Sovrememnny before it was hit by whatever was shot at her by the Kirov (Soviet Asroc?). The LA Class was moved to report the contact, and once we came closer I launched a seahawk which activated it's radar. After defeating multiple soviet missile attacks, I launched back, sinking both Sverdlovs, the Kirov, the 2nd Slava and an Udaloy. I detached the Iowa and moved her in, and she quickly finished off the last 4 ships with main gun rounds.




CV32 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 2:54:49 PM)

Nice AAR, mack2. That's a fun scenario, for sure.




Terminus -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 3:58:18 PM)

Very fun. The best tactic that I've found is (as mentioned above) simply let the Soviets shoot their missiles and let my AAW ships soak them up (this can, if you're lucky, be done without loss to you). Then move in, shoot your own missiles (they won't do the whole job), and finish off stragglers with the 16-inchers. Oh, what a mighty KA-BOOM they make.




SireChaos -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 7:10:29 PM)

One more piece of advice: *if* you use your Tomahawks to attack the Soviets at long range, do not go with auto-allocation of missiles to targets; instead, send all Tomahawks at only one ship, preferably the Kirov.




Shark7 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 7:14:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

One more piece of advice: *if* you use your Tomahawks to attack the Soviets at long range, do not go with auto-allocation of missiles to targets; instead, send all Tomahawks at only one ship, preferably the Kirov.


Good advice. This way if any do get through the SAM screen, they will damage or sink the most dangerous threat in the enemy fleet.




Stalintc -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 8:38:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Johnnie

Playing the "Duel Large Surface Action" scenario from the first set and I'm, ah, not winning. What do you try to do as Nato ?? Wait until you are close enough to saturate the Soviet Fleet's defences with a massive attack ?? When I fire as soon as I can get some ordinance in range, my missiles seem to get picked off by the defenses.

I'm new to Harpoon. This game is a lot of fun. I thought the graphics might be a turnoff, but not so. They are clear and work well enough. The game brings back memories of Red Storm Rising, which I will now read again.


Welcome to Harpoon mate, the best god damn modern warfare RTS\simulation there is out there!

I dont know the scenario of which you speak, im very new to the workings and scenarios of HCE, my main knowledge base is within ANW of which I first started playing the Harpoon series, so im not a member of the *old schooler pooners*

But what I can say is you are right on the money when you say wait till you are close enough to sature the soviet fleets defences, a SAG usually has enough fire power to hold its own during a missile exchange so you really need to pack on the pressure to their defence systems.

The top most key to any Harpoon scenario is intelligance, and gaining enough accurate intelligence without compromising your intentions or your position. It is important to identify the exact composition of a SAG and find out where the main elements of the AAW screen are located and where the biggest longest range hitters are. in most cases you can find a hole in the AAW screen which may allow you to send in missiles to areas of weaker defence meaning more of them get through. and obviously your main targets are going to be ships like the Kirov as mentioned which have the longest range punch on your fleet.

With regards to collecting this intelligence, if you feel it is neccesary for you to collect information using active sensors, consider using helicopters\planes with good radar suites stationed well away from your launching units to collect all the data you need to setup your attack, the enemy of course will then be alerted to being watched, but at least they will still not have a local on your main effort and launch their own assault with intelligence you have given them from your electronic emissions. If you must use your surface vessels to emit, station them further out from the main formation to keep accurate vectors from being obtained.

Also if you can identify the main AAW threats within the formation, perhaps you can knock them out with small precision attacks with torpedos or smaller waves of missiles from sub surface platforms can aid you before your main missile strike from your surface groups\aircraft. But take into consideration that using the subs and such for these small strike is in fact subtracting from your overall punching power as the fleet as a whole. But those are considerations for a commanders preference.

When you attack, its not just a case of lobbing as many missiles in from one direction, in an ideal situation you want missiles coming from a minimum of two different directions at about the same time to overwhelm the defence systems of the group, you can do this with best with aircraft and submarines in support of your main fleet effort, or if you feel daring split your main surface group up to provide two different vectors for the missiles to come from.

For maximum Probability of Kill you need the following:

- Accurate Intel
- Synchronous Timing of attack
- Multiple Vectors
- Quantity of warheads


I hope this is of some help to you, im sure someone will correct me if im wrong, but that is my take on things.




andym -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 8:45:57 PM)

How close is this game to the Old janes Fleet Command?




CV32 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 9:12:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: andym
How close is this game to the Old janes Fleet Command?


One man's opinion, of course, but HCE is light years beyond Janes' Fleet Command.




andym -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 9:17:58 PM)

Cool,as soon as the CD option is available its on my list!




Stalintc -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/25/2007 9:48:16 PM)

Good choice Andy, you wont be dis-appointed!

I share the same opinion as CV32 in this instance [:)]




SireChaos -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/26/2007 8:45:11 PM)

I just played the Duel scenario again, and noticed a few things; I am not sure how much of this applies to other surface-vs-surface engagements.

1.) If you have reason to believe that your missiles are not going to hit the enemy before he strikes at you, for example because his missiles are already flying in your direction, it makes little sense to strike at the ships that have already fired. In Duel, playing USA, this means ignoring the Kirov and the Slavas once they have fired, and firing your Tomahawks at primarily at the Sverdlovs, the Mod Kashins and the Sovremennys. In general you should consult the platform database and ignore all those platforms that do not have SSMs - for example Udaloy, Kara and Kresta II class.
When play USSR, this is different - you must keep in mind that almost all Western warships have Harpoons, so you really cannot safely ignore any of them.

2.) Once you have located the enemy, see if you can get a submarine into their path; if they can reach a point along the projected course of the enemy, going at maximum speed, and then stop or creep once they are there, they can give the enemy a nasty surprise - additional Tomahawks, additional Harpoons, plus torpedo attacks. Remember that a torpedo cannot be shot down, and a single torpedo, if it hits, can sink or cripple most warships. That Improved Los Angeles boat has enough firepower to potentially sink half a Soviet battle group.
Submarine attacks become much more dangerous if, at the time of the attack, the submarine is within range of friendly SAMs, to protect it against helicopters.

3.) Make sure you have ONE Tomahawk strike, and ONE Harpoon strike, to overwhelm enemy defenses; do NOT hold back any missiles to mop up survivors - if you do, your missiles will face the brunt of the enemy defenses twice instead of once, meaning that twice as many of your missiles will be shot down.
Also, make sure that, if you attack with multiple groups, their missiles will arrive at more or less the same time, for the same reason.

4.) The AI is trigger-happy. If you can arrange it so that one of your ships is detected before all the others, or is in range of the AI´s missile before the others, chances are the AI will concentrate all fire on this ship. You can use this (by offering up one ship as bait) or try to concentrate on protecting that ship against it.

When I played Duel, I annihilated the Soviet battlegroup. The AI fired about 20 long-range SSMs in the first wave and 30 in a second wave; my air defenses shot down the first wave completely, and the second wave scored an incredible 8 hits on a Knox-class frigate (that´s why I mentioned item 4). My Tomahawks sank a Slava, a Sverdlov, an Udaloy and a Mod Kashin in return. Then I managed to get the US submarine between my battlegroup and the Soviets, stopped my group to let the Soviets come to them, and to the sub, and waited.
The shorter-ranged Soviet missiles all ganged up on the Virginia-class cruisers, sinking it, although with only 3 hits this time (item 4 again). My harpoons sank the Kirov, a Sovremenny and the second Sverdlov.
Then, the Soviets moved within torpedo of the submarine. My surface ships´ SAMs shot down all helicopters the Soviets launched, while the submarine´s torpedos sank all the remaining Soviet ships except for the Kresta - she would have gotten that one, too, except that it strayed into the Iowa´s gun range first.
All things considered, I´d say this was almost a textbook operation.




SteveF2006 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/27/2007 5:58:38 AM)

I had one of the most memorable scenarios playing that set. I try to use some of my helos on manual patrol to locate where the enemy group is, get close and saturate the enemy. Also, as stated earlier, if you can get your subs involved, it really helps. Part of that will depend on where the positioning of the battle groups are.

I had one game where I had damaged a few of the ships in the Soviet group. They sunk all of my ships but the Iowa BB. I steamed right through the middle of the Soviet fleet and blasted them out of the water as they had spent all of their anti-ship missiles already! Very fun scenario!!




erict -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/27/2007 10:09:19 PM)

I haven't tried the Duel scenerio in years so I just tried again. I obliterated the Soviet SAG with my LA class sub. Absolutely brutal, see:

[image]http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/2385/sagna5.jpg[/image]


The only thing left is a Modifed Kashin limping away with 74% damage.  I'm going to trail it with my sub and let the Iowa finish it off.[:D]

Now that's impressive!




SteveF2006 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/28/2007 4:25:28 AM)

Poor Ivan, never saw it coming! [;)]




wombat1417 -> RE: Need some help with surface tactics (11/29/2007 3:42:22 AM)

The LA is probaly the best tool to be using if it is position to attack, mainly because you can't shoot down torpedoes.
In earlier versions of Harpoon, you could split up missiles to try to take out as many targets as you could without drawing counterfire until all missiles in the salvo had hit or missed.  In later versions, after the first target was hit counterfire would occur against missiles that were still in flight. If the enemy still has a Kirov or Slava alive after that first hit, any subsequent missile attack usually fails because they just get decimated by their counterfire.
So, torpedo the Kirov and the Slava, if possible. If not, Tomahawk the Kirov for sure and then the Slava by trying for a simultaneous arrival on both ships.  Harpoon the rest, and as a last resort get into 16" gun range and blast them.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.75