Is ESM Too Powerful? (Full Version)

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darknite -> Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 12:15:02 AM)

ESM sets have a variety of functionality from basic RWRs to very sensitive Elint gear. MPA, AEW and specialized EW aircraft have the best ability to find and localize the widest array of emissions. However I am getting very accurate fixes on radiating sources using tactical aircraft (albeit very modern) sensors. Other than units with HTS or similar gear does the modern RWR or equivalent really have this level of precision?



CV32 -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 12:26:31 AM)

As it stands right now, there is only one level of ESM. Its the same for any aircraft that has ESM, from your tactical strike aircraft to your RC-135.



erict -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 12:33:30 AM)

Ya, good point. Fighters can do amazing ESM work. If there is only one model for ESM maybe it would make sense to eliminate ESM from tactical fighters and let the recon units do the real ESM work.



SteveF2006 -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 1:52:07 AM)

Does enemy EW reduce the effectiveness of the ESM? [&:]



TonyE -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 3:01:14 AM)

Not in the game, no.

ESM is one of those sensor models in need of revamping some time in the less than distant future.



TonyE -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 3:49:47 AM)

Ideas welcome.  There has been a general leaning towards a generational model pretty much mirroring the H4.1 paper sensor generations.  I tend to be leaning that way as well, a range, a generation, and maybe a few flags for the types of emissions the ESM can detect.



NefariousKoel -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 9:19:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE

Ideas welcome. There has been a general leaning towards a generational model pretty much mirroring the H4.1 paper sensor generations. I tend to be leaning that way as well, a range, a generation, and maybe a few flags for the types of emissions the ESM can detect.



That would be a good setup.

Question: Is there any place except for opening up the database where I can see if a unit has ESM capability? Or Dipping sonar for that matter? Some of those extras..



Stalintc -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 12:26:57 PM)

LOL all this time ive been playing the H3ANW way thinking that ESM was fully modelled!! dooooooooooooh! [:D]

*slap face with week old festering trout*



Owl -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/28/2007 11:47:01 PM)

As a former EW I can say with fair confidence that a reasonably accurate EW model as far as ESM (radar intercept) shouldn't be too hard to come up with. Just off the top of my head what I think of would not be complicated at all, and have a units ESM sensitivity and then direction finding accuracy compared to the radar they're trying to detect. There are some very old ESM sets on surface ships that are very sinsitive - in fact more sensitive than modern sets but they are not fast - they take a bit of time to localize the Direction and ID of a target radar. Many modern sets give you a bearing right off and will even give you an ID on the probable platfom. So then generation wouldn't be that accurate - old stuff can work just fine if not as fast as new. An/WLR-1C is a old ESM receiver - very sensitive but it took a trained operator to get the most out of it. Modern stuff - AN/SLQ-32 is fast (one sweep of a radar and it's caught if it's within the sensitivity of the system).

I've always had problems with all the versions of Harpoon so far - picky ass EW I guess, but when it doesn't work in the game and does in life it irks me a bit sometimes!



NefariousKoel -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/29/2007 5:33:30 AM)

Owl-

One of the big things about the H4 tabletop rules concerning ESM is that in each 'generation' there are different levels of classification for the emitter.



Owl -> RE: Is ESM Too Powerful? (11/29/2007 8:54:37 PM)

I am not familiar with the desktop rules but depending on how one does the generations I suppose it would work. There are a couple things that need to be decided - first is detection sensitivity of the ESM gear. How far away is the radar when the ESM unit picks it up? This depends of course on the radar power and frequency primarily - at least those would probably be good enough to use by themselves. Next the ability of the ESM gear (or operator) to identify the radar is important. If you can't tell a harpoon seeker from a F-14 for example things could get intersting. One last thing is how accurate the DF is - in order to give a more exact direction for the radar. If this is very accurate you can get a cross fix on a radar and more accurately plot where the emitting platform is at.
The problem I see with generations is that the older 1960's units were plenty sensitive - in fact more sensitive than many of the standard units used on ships in the 1980's (1989 is when I got out of the navy, so can't speak for later ESM receivers nor aircraft based ones). The AN/WLR-1 ESM receiver could routinely detect radars further out than the more modern AN/SLQ-32. Further the older receiver had a more accurate DF capability than the SLQ. Here again then, generation doesn't really work.
The SLQ had its advantages though. It was/is able to "see", plot a farily accurate direction and identify radars very quickly. If a submarine comes to periscope depth and does a single sweep of its radar - the SLQ will "see" it, the WLR-1 may not and certainly wouldn't get a direction on it. The modern (for then) computing power of the SLQ had its advantages!
That's about all I can get into without potentially getting into classified stuff (or maybe classified - I don't know what is and isn't these days).



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