RE: What a Fantastic Game (Full Version)

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Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/5/2007 7:30:01 PM)

quote:


As for Virginia being no different than Missouri, we actually have terrain information to indicate what sorts of terrain should be available, and to what degree, in detailed combat for every single movement area in the map, including levels of population, roads, etc. Gil went through enormous pain putting this file together, and he'll be very sad to read the claim that FOF makes no terrain distinctions between provinces.


No, I wasn't sad, since I realize that Missouri and Virginia share the same terrain types -- the difference is in the %chance of certain terrains showing up. So mathematically speaking, it's possible for two battlefields that are identical in terms of terrain types to show up in those states, but if one plays the entire game through 1865 then over time one will have a greater number of battles in thick woods when fighting in Fredericksburg and a greater number fought in swampy areas in coastal North Carolina, and so forth.

But I do know that that terrain file is a monster that took countless hours, and does have the right terrains showing up. No mountains in Kansas, lots of mountains in eastern Tennessee, etc.




Missouri_Rebel -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/6/2007 4:32:15 AM)

It is true that much of Missouri resembles Virginia. Robert E Lee, when working in the area, thought so too. The town of Richmond Heights up in St.Louis was named as such by the General because it reminded him so much of home.

lil tidbit there. not much to add otherwise.

mo reb




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/6/2007 5:10:47 AM)

Interesting. I did not know that.




michaelincolorado -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/6/2007 9:59:45 PM)

Replying to Eric's question below:

A game of strung together historical tactical battles using FoF engine and AI would have GREAT appeal to me and I am sure many others. Although there are many other games of historical Civil War battles out there, the appeal and unique factor here would be the superior AI the FoF engine (both strategic and tactical battle) has over anything else out there with the exception of Mad Minute's gem- and I would think that should be emphasized. Notice any poll on most any wargame asking whether use will be PBEM or solo with AI almost always has results weighted overwhelmingly to solo with AI. And yet very few wargames (Civil War particularly) have a good AI - all the Tiller games come immediately to mind - great maps, great set of battles, but lousy AI that has never been improved.

I think you have a niche here to morph the existing code into without hopefully too labor intensive a task to add the historical battles and thereby give your fans some more goodies and hopefully allow you to make some more money for all your great work.



quote:

One idea for another type of product our engine would be to produce a series of detailed battle scenarios that would allow players to re-fight the Civil War (or Napoleonic Wars) one historical battle at a time using only the detailed combat portion of our game. Part of the goal of the discussion on this thread is to ascertain whether such a game with our engine would have market appeal even though there are plenty of other games out there that do just this.




pzpat -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/7/2007 12:48:06 AM)

     A historic battlefield option or scenario would be interesting, and worth a try, but I don't really think I would replay that option any more often than the Guns of the South scenario (which I haven't even started yet), and probably not as often.
    I'm currently fighting battles near the Mississippi River, and when I go to detailed combat the rivers on the maps are always running east-west.  Aren't there any rivers that run north-south? 




jkBluesman -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/7/2007 11:07:06 AM)

What makes you think that North is at the top of the battlefield map? In other words there are already rivers running north-south.




takati97realm -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/12/2007 5:33:38 AM)

In regards to generals getting killed off, and tactical battle in my previous post there was a reply  "Um, how much FOF have you played? Generals are regularly lost in detailed combat."

A lot from December to February/March. Since the First Major patch in like April to around June or so. Around 3 to 4. Since July, zilch. Always played the June/July scenario. Never played past summer of '62. Of all the games, I can recall only losing 1 general, the Union/AI several.

But I'm sure if I would have played longer or more frequently with the patch, I'm sure I would have found generals died more often. I'm looking forward to trying the new patch. [:)]




moose1999 -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/12/2007 9:29:40 AM)

It's still possible to avoid having your generals killed.
If you really want them to stay alive, you can adjust your strategy accordingly and you'll rarely/never see a dead general.
But this comes at a price, of course. It will force you to be very conservative and careful, and you really won't benefit as much as you should/could from your general's bonuses if you always keep them out of harms way and avoid taking chances in detailed battles.
By babysitting and overprotecting your generals, you will keep them alive but give the enemy a significant tactical edge.
But if you want to do a McClellan, you can. But it'll cost you, just as it did the Union in real life.




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/15/2007 3:44:15 AM)

Wow. Thought I was subscribed to this thread and here it has being going crazy for a while!

I see what you are saying about the battles rarely working out to be exactly the same because of the scripted AI and the specific order of battle issues. It does sound like a lot of effort, and could indeed be quite disappointing. Think I'm subscribed to this thread now, so it will notify me by email.




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/15/2007 4:09:33 AM)

Well, it's not exactly WITP's "The Thread," but it's got an obvious will to live...

Perhaps the ideal might be just to create a map editor, but not ourselves devote countless man-hours to working on the historical battlefields ourselves. (Even if Mr. Z -- our main map researcher -- and I didn't make any maps ourselves, we'd still have to pore over them for quality-control because they'd be going out as part of an official WCS release.) Those who created historical maps could share them with the rest of us, and perhaps we might even release the best ones in patches, making their use a game option.

More input is still welcome, though.




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/15/2007 5:23:23 PM)

I'm not a big CW buff really, just more of a general strategy gamer grognard I guess. So I don't know all the battlefields, generals, etc, and never been to a single battlefield that I can recall. Nonetheless, playing with CWGII, one of the interesting things that I learned was how important the SPECIFIC lay of the land for most CW battles was in real life. This is a more specific example of the general principle that: for tactics, proper deployment relative to terrain can be a huge force multiplier. I'm not particularly critical of the random tactical map generation approach, because in general it does still embody the basic principle that terrain is a critical element in tactics. Moreover, I recognize the pragmatic design, and production issues underlying it, and overall I think it is a brilliant approach for making the game work.

But I do think it is worth considering how, if at all, pre-made maps might be interwoven into FOF to augment it even further.

This raises some interesting issues about which I do not exactly know the answers. Specifically, why did battles tend to occur where they did?

My guess is that it tended to vary from battle to battle, and perhaps from 'province' to province. I'd hazard the guess that, battles in the West tended to be more opportunistic and had more to do with timing in general. Battles in the East may well have had more to do with taking and holding specific chunks of land where semi-permanent strategic deployments had more long-term value.

There are probably other reasons but this makes me think there are at least two reasons why battles happened where they did: (a) one combatant was afforded an opportunity to 'force' a contest in a particular location, which did not in and of itself offer any particularly important strategic benefits for taking and holding; (b) a particular piece of ground was worth fighting over because having it had more ongoing strategic potential.

Not knowing CW history in detail, I'm in no position to think about how some battlefields might be more reflective of (a) vs. (b), but just as an example to get the mental juices flowing for others: would Shiloh be more of an example of (a), and Chancellorsville more of an example of (b).

In an ideal world (which is probably totally untenable), it would be VERY cool to have something akin to the googleEarth data for the eastern-half of North America (or at least that tiny[?] fraction of it where battles can/could happen: meaning, obviously large fractions of the appalachians, lakes, wetlands, rivers, etc., are simply not tenable for significant CW style battles to occur) digitized into hex maps. Then maybe somehow the 19th century infrastructure network could be overlain on that, and the engine could actually keep track of where on the strategic map forces were sitting/moving (though the player would not be able to specify this, and how it occurred would be determined by the algorithms as a function of leader and container characteristics). Then where battles COULD occur in the case of both (a) and (b) would refelct these ongoing strategic situations.

I realize that that is probably not tenable, but thinking in those terms might help to sort of define the spatial bottlenecks and such where it is perhaps worthwhile thinking of creating the detailed maps.




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/17/2007 1:07:44 AM)

I have a question about the AI. Now that I've figured out tactical combat, I seem to just slaughter it, unless it manages to surprise reinforce or something, as long as I can keep the numbers about equal, I can generally whip its butt. I won one game on First Sarge as Union, played one quite a ways through (victory was a foregone conclusion) on Sarge as CSA, and now started one on First Sarge as CSA. I'm guessing I should just up my difficulty, but I'm curious how much difference in tactics I'll see at higher difficulties? Is it primarily just mathematical bonuses and production bonuses, or does the AI have slightly different decision-making at higher difficulties? I can tell that it does act differently strategically at higher difficulty, and obviously had better productivity, but I'm mostly curious about the tactical battlefield.




ericbabe -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/17/2007 1:13:47 AM)

Higher difficulty levels don't directly affect tactics, they largely provide a variety of bonuses to the AI.




Ironclad -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/17/2007 4:00:47 PM)

But they do directly impact on battle casualty rates and from (major) upwards give increasing possibility of AI entrenchments. The indirect effect includes resources penalties for you, which combined with other extras for the AI should mean more upgrades, attributes, better weaponry, more purchased units (with higher morale) on a far greater scale than your forces. With more cavalry and more scouts he should win the scouting check more frequently, and extra container purchases/academies should provide for better staffs with command/supply enhancements. All this contributes to a much tougher prospect in detailed battles particularly at the higher difficulty levels.

Edit: The side/scenario you choose will have an impact too of course. I was thinking about the effect on you as CSA facing a higher difficulty Union AI.




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/22/2007 6:05:06 PM)

I want you guys to implement this basic game design with additional projects: 100 Years War; WWII; Vietnam. This is the best strategy game design I've ever seen. Can't stop playing long enough to post accolades on here . . . wife might divorce me but hey, I will have won the war three times in a row . . . Won it as Union on First Sarge pretty easily . . . First Sarge as Confeds was a bit more of a challenge, but still pretty easy: good way to learn it all . . . Now playing again with Extra Pop and Commerce as Union on Sarge Major, and it is _JUUSSTT_ RIGHT! I know what I need to do to win, but it makes me think HARD and the tactical battles are quite white knuckle . . . think I like more Pop and Commerce better = can actually build up a more diverse and numerous military, etc. First Sarge gives the AI just the edge she needs to keep you on your toes. Can't imagine what it is like to play on like Captain or Major level [&o]




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/22/2007 6:28:49 PM)

ADDIT: I just wanna say again, you guys are awesome game designers. You really have create a wonderful work of art here, and the attention to detail, the thoughtfulness, and subtle stuff is really exceptional.

Couple examples: In my latest game as USA Sarge Major, I decided I was sick of Freemont, the political ladder climbers shmuck . . . so after a battle in C MO, I demoted him to 1 Star. He didn't quit . . . knows where his bread is buttered . . . but the Guvunah (forget his name, the guy whose daughter he married off to) was PISSED! -31 ! Normally it decrements five or ten, but 31! So true to the bio . . . I'm guessing could be even worse for Butler or Patterson? So I decided to send Butler on a suicide mission to invade the Bayou just as Garibaldi and Sherman led First Corps to retake Cairo . . . interesting: 1st Division got decimated, but none of my deadbeat Generals got waxed [:@] Guess I'll have to try harder . . .

Then I got Sherman just before a knock-down-drag-out in Fredricksburg in like Sept 1861 . . . So I immediately promoted him to two-star . . . Next turn, I get the message "Sherman has suffered STRESS!" !?! So awesome fit with the bio! [:D] He was "CRITICAL" wounded for a couple months but eventually recovered [X(]




ericbabe -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/22/2007 6:59:45 PM)

Thank you very much for the kind words.  Have you ever considered a career as a game reviewer [:)]  




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (12/22/2007 9:09:11 PM)

quote:


Then I got Sherman just before a knock-down-drag-out in Fredricksburg in like Sept 1861 . . . So I immediately promoted him to two-star . . . Next turn, I get the message "Sherman has suffered STRESS!" !?! So awesome fit with the bio! He was "CRITICAL" wounded for a couple months but eventually recovered



Thanks for your comments. As for Sherman, his return from stress brought on by a sense that the war isn't going well is timed to coincide with when Sherman really did return to active duty (Feb. 1862, I think). It solves the problem of the Union otherwise being able to have a superb general available too soon in the war. Best to make the Union choose from among McDowell, Butler, McClellan, Fremont, etc.




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/12/2008 11:29:54 PM)

Seems like it's time to raise this thread back to the top (and not just because I like its title).

A general question: if we were to have a way of fighting out historical battles (historical battlefield+historical OOB's--->historical battle), which battles would be of particular interest, and why? I think that the Shiloh's and Antietam's are pretty obvious, so I'm more interested in your thoughts about medium and smaller battles. And how many such battles would you have a stomach for? Could you see yourself just wanting to try FOF's tactical engine out on 2-3, or might you want 10, 15, 20, etc.? We appreciate your input.





morganbj -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/13/2008 6:18:55 AM)

I am surprised at the paucity of titles about Fredricksburg/Chancellorsville.  One is kinda boring (but it didn't have to be), the other is a masterpiece.  I'd love to see those.




haruntaiwan -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/13/2008 6:26:14 AM)

Railway embankment = row of single hex hills with road on top.
Sunken road = entrenchments already in place in the hex

I'm sure you've thought of this before and there are problems with these solutions but posting a comment is free!




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/13/2008 7:13:10 AM)

Thanks. Yeah, I do want to expand the number of available hex types. The thing is, creating, say, a sunken road requires not only new graphics, but also Eric (= programmer) has to train the AI to handle it properly. So it's far from an easy thing to do, but I am hopeful that one day you'll see sunken roads, stone walls, etc. in there.




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 1:01:44 AM)

What about the "googleEarth-ish" approach I mentioned above. Is that total pie-in-the-sky as I am guessing it probably is?

I don't know much about the possibilities of transferring digital maps like googleEarth type stuff into hex-i-fied game maps; but I would think that a savvy graphics coder (maybe?) could set up an algorithm so that the app in which the hex map is generated can take the data from an actual map dataset and "translate" it?

Exclude the majority of the land where tactical battles just simply would not have occurred (everything remote from roads?) and I would think that that would reduce the number of Counties that would actually need to be translated from actual map to game hex map by a half or more.

Since there were very few historical battles "in the north" exclude the north states from consideration and stick with randomly generated maps for those areas.

This would render a latticework of detailed maps of the southern states with large blacked out chunks that were inaccessible due to be too remote from any roads or rivers. Have this whole thing converted into hex map! Then where the battles could occur would be "historical" in the sense that ll the terrain was representing real terrain, but still would have a random quality.

Maybe a particular battle happened because it was a choke point along a north-south valley. In the game, the battle could occur might occur anywhere along the corridor.

Just brainstorming. Maybe crazy impossible?




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 7:59:00 AM)

What you're describing can be done, though I'm not sure of the scale you mean. Something like that might work better for a regional map -- eastern theater, let's say -- than the whole U.S.

We're actually using a "GoogleEarth-ish" approach for the map for "Crown of Glory: Emperor's Edition, as you'll see when screenshots are released. The map is overlayed on a topographical map of the sort you suggest, and Pixelpusher has made it look outstanding. (I realize that there might be other rivals for the title, but I think that when COG:EE is released it will be considered by more than a few to be the best-looking map of Europe in any wargame.)




ColinWright -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 9:16:06 AM)

I'd really like to see historical battlefields. My own thinking is that there could be a limited set of historical battlefields -- say, twenty or so. If a battle occurs in a district containing such a battlefield, then the battle takes place there...or the player has the option of having it take place there...or it takes place there if that option was selected on the set up screen.

There's some justification for this. Civil War battles did occur repetitively in the same places. There was a first, second, and third Winchester. A First and Second Manassas. Chancellorsville and the Wilderness took place in about the same place, and Fredericksburg wasn't far off. Cold Harbor shows up on maps of Gaines Mill.

Etc, no doubt -- and it would add a lot to the game if one found one's self deciding how to deploy on a battlefield that was recognizably Antietam.

Anyway, battlefields I would like to see.

First/Second Manassas.

Richmond/Petersburg

Atlanta and vicinity

Kennesaw Mountain

Fredericksburg/the Wilderness/Chancellorsville

Gettysburg

Antietam

Pea Ridge

Port Republic/Cross Keys

Shiloh

Chickamauga/Chattanooga

As many more as you've patience for.

Anyway, got me interested in this game again. Off to once again crush the Yankee aggressor...which reminds me.

An option to limit the 'stupid Union AI surge into Fredericksburg' to maybe a biennial event would be nice. Or maybe an option at the start of each turn. 'Let Union AI mount futile advance into Fredericksburg this turn?' It gets to be a real drag. Every frigging turn, you have to fight that stupid battle. Sometimes the Union will lay off for a turn or two if you really hammer them -- but it's a relief when they do. That battle gets old.

Couldn't they at least try Rappahannock/James River occasionally?




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 10:10:16 AM)

You make a good point about some battlefields seeing multiple battles.

I'm curious, why Port Republic/Cross Keys? Is the terrain especially interesting, or is it just the importance of Jackson's victory there? I've been to many of the other sites, but not that one.




moose1999 -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 10:35:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.
I realize that there might be other rivals for the title, but I think that when COG:EE is released it will be considered by more than a few to be the best-looking map of Europe in any wargame.


Now, now, Gil. This is a really mean comment to throw at us... [;)]
It makes the waiting time much worse...!
At least tell us when you expect you can show us the first screenshot of that map...




Gil R. -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 10:44:23 AM)

Do you mean show-you-but-I'd-have-to-kill-you showing you, or just showing you?




moose1999 -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 10:51:33 AM)

Which ever comes faster - I'll gladly use up one of my nine lives to see a screenshot... [:)]




Anthropoid -> RE: What a Fantastic Game (6/19/2008 3:52:53 PM)

Hey ColinWright, did you see my post one or two pages up where I hypothesize there are at least two broad "types" of battlefields in ACW?

quote:

This raises some interesting issues about which I do not exactly know the answers. Specifically, why did battles tend to occur where they did?

My guess is that it tended to vary from battle to battle, and perhaps from 'province' to province. I'd hazard the guess that, battles in the West tended to be more opportunistic and had more to do with timing in general. Battles in the East may well have had more to do with taking and holding specific chunks of land where semi-permanent strategic deployments had more long-term value.

There are probably other reasons but this makes me think there are at least two reasons why battles happened where they did: (a) one combatant was afforded an opportunity to 'force' a contest in a particular location, which did not in and of itself offer any particularly important strategic benefits for taking and holding; (b) a particular piece of ground was worth fighting over because having it had more ongoing strategic potential.

Not knowing CW history in detail, I'm in no position to think about how some battlefields might be more reflective of (a) vs. (b), but just as an example to get the mental juices flowing for others: would Shiloh be more of an example of (a), and Chancellorsville more of an example of (b).


In short, why did ACW battles happen where they did? Since there are not that many major ACW battles (60? 90?) it might not be that hard to simply categorize each one by one or two categories of "WHY IT HAPPENED WHERE IT DID." Lets say you come up with three categories (a) Opportunistic; (b) Strategically-Important location; (c) Choke-point.

Each province could have at least one of each type of battlefield (with the [a] types simply being randomly generated). If you win a battle in an Opportunistic battlefield in a province it produces a different post-battle effect than if you win a battle for a (b) or (c) type. Been a while since I fired up this game, so not sure how it could/should work with all the other strategic level factors . . .

For every battle that fits into category (a): why bother with creating a map. Create maps for the other two only. Some provinces might have no (b) or (c) type maps on them. Some might have two (b)s (Strategically Valuable Locations) that are linked by one (c) (Choke Point). If you win the scouting, you can choose to force the battle at the b1 site. If you win it, then you are in a position next turn(or maybe in the same turn, depending on number of troops, and their mobility) to try to take the (c) battlefield site (the choke point that links B1 and B2). Win the battle for the choke point site, and you are then in a position to take the B2 site . . .

Others might have a string of three (c)s that lead to a neighboring province with one vitally important (b). The value of the (b)s could vary in terms of the victory point locations or whatever is located there, and also depending on the supply value or whatever it is in this game (again, have not fired it up for too long, and been playing Civ4 Beyond the Sword, etc. too much to remember specific details about FoF).

The other interesting thing which this approach could facilitate is to build off of the existing AI tendencies which some of us have complained about a tad bit (e.g., your comment about repetitive Union AI attacks on Fredricksburg). Right now, the AI has a tendency to just attack anywhere it can, which I think a few of us have argued is not very realistic. If certain provinces were more strategically important as "doors" into additional areas, or as highly valuable strategic caches of some sort, then the AI might not behave quite so ahistorically.

By having some provinces contain both an (a) and a (b), and having neighboring provinces in some cases also contain an (a) or a (b) type battlefield, it might be possible to reduce or eliminate silly AI behavior without having to recode AI algorithm.




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