Not able to recapture capital before surrender (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Commander - Europe at War Gold



Message

KarlXII -> Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/29/2007 10:05:38 AM)

Perhaps this has been discussed earlier but I donīt like the system that a full country surrenders the same turn the capital is taken. The other side should at least have ONE (if not a few more) turns to be able to retake it. Especially if the country have a lot of troops. The problem with the current rules is that it favours suicidal spearhead attacks straight on, only to get to capture the capital, regardless of the tactical situation (very exposed and vulnerable for counterattacks if the enemy would be allowed to have at least one turn to react).

What do you think of that ? What is the idea of the country surrender in the same turn without the other side being able to counter it ?



Tordenskiold -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/29/2007 10:39:11 AM)

Hi, I understand your argument, but it is a lot of things that is not realistic in this game. I do not think that it is meant to be either. This is a semi-realistic WWII game intended to be easy to understand and play, and hard to master, a bit like Chess.
If you want to get your hands on something really realistic MatrixGames certainly has a lot to choose from. Still, I find the game entertaining, easy and relaxing. Perfect after a hard day at work



KarlXII -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/29/2007 11:20:12 AM)

This is not a question about the game not being realistic. I know it isnīt. It is a question about the validity of such a rule. Is it a good rule or a bad rule ? I donīt know but perhaps it is even feasible to be included in a future patch ? I would say the current rule does not give the game any plus but instead is a drawback. If you donīt agree then I wanīt to know why it is better the way it is now if you would be able to choose between the two rules.



Vypuero -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/29/2007 4:05:14 PM)

What country do you think this applies to?  For the most part, I don't see this issue - Russia and the UK do not quite surrender when their capitals are taken.  One thing about the UK I am not sure is good is that once you take London, you can't build units in the UK any longer.  France seems right - and Rome and Berlin are not easy to get to - so what seems to be where you feel it is off?



KarlXII -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 10:21:51 AM)

The problem is not that the country surrenders if it loses its capital. I can understand the decision behind that. Even if the country could have huge amount of troops left since that is a feature by design. BUT what I donīt see the point in is that the country surrenders the FIRST turn of capture WITHOUT the other side at least having ONE turn to counterattack. Thatīs all.

It was the same problem in Panzer General once. It was enough just to hold the last victory hex one turn for success. That meant you could throw in anything you had with huge losses, exposing your whole army and disposition but didnīt have to care for it since you knew the enemy would not be able to strike back the next turn.



Vypuero -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 4:04:19 PM)

but where is it reasonable that there would be that extra turn to recapture?  France surrendered pretty easily, so I don't think they should have the extra turn, for example.



KarlXII -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 5:45:43 PM)

What is to say France in CEAW should play out exactly as happened in WW2 ? At that time there was no guarantee of a quick and successful victory in the west. If we cannot change history why play out a strategy game at all if everything should be like it happened in real life ? However, that is not the point.
(I for myself donīt even like the fact that I canīt escape with my french units over to UK to continue fighting. They just disappear. New rule suggestion: Every friendly unit within its countries border will dissappear when the capital is conquered. Units beyond will still be incorporated into the side hosting them.)

The major problem is that with this rule you could have the entire army intact and still loosing because you donīt hold the single hex Paris is in. Most other games which utilise this kind of system and do not accumulate victory points to win (by destroying enemy forces, capturing cities etc) allow for at least to hold the most major hex at least on full turn without interruption of the enemy. If you played Panzer General 1 they changed that in PG2 just because of the reasons I have already written about.

Take Berlin for example. If the AI is playing the AXIS he is very bad at defending his capital if you invade in the west or more closer (even in Denmark). You could quickly take Berlin despite the fact that the AXIS might be overwhelmingly more powerful, having 90% of its troops in Russia. Itīs not realistic to let the AXIS loose because of that. At least the Axis should have one turn (and not even that is much) to do something. In the end its a rule suggestion to not being able to use weaknesses in the game system by doing sneak, surprise attacks with inferior forces that rush to the enemy capital.

But this is still my opinion and everyone are of course fully entitled to disagree. My only interest is to make this game even better by being able to discuss experienced weaknesses in the game system.






Hard Sarge -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 7:07:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: karlxii

What is to say France in CEAW should play out exactly as happened in WW2 ? At that time there was no guarantee of a quick and successful victory in the west. If we cannot change history why play out a strategy game at all if everything should be like it happened in real life ? However, that is not the point.
(I for myself donīt even like the fact that I canīt escape with my french units over to UK to continue fighting. They just disappear. New rule suggestion: Every friendly unit within its countries border will dissappear when the capital is conquered. Units beyond will still be incorporated into the side hosting them.)

The major problem is that with this rule you could have the entire army intact and still loosing because you donīt hold the single hex Paris is in. Most other games which utilise this kind of system and do not accumulate victory points to win (by destroying enemy forces, capturing cities etc) allow for at least to hold the most major hex at least on full turn without interruption of the enemy. If you played Panzer General 1 they changed that in PG2 just because of the reasons I have already written about.

Take Berlin for example. If the AI is playing the AXIS he is very bad at defending his capital if you invade in the west or more closer (even in Denmark). You could quickly take Berlin despite the fact that the AXIS might be overwhelmingly more powerful, having 90% of its troops in Russia. Itīs not realistic to let the AXIS loose because of that. At least the Axis should have one turn (and not even that is much) to do something. In the end its a rule suggestion to not being able to use weaknesses in the game system by doing sneak, surprise attacks with inferior forces that rush to the enemy capital.

But this is still my opinion and everyone are of course fully entitled to disagree. My only interest is to make this game even better by being able to discuss experienced weaknesses in the game system.






I got to disagree with most of this

most of it is based on what happened, what French Units made it to England ? almost all the troops that got pulled out of France, and made it to England, were then shipped back to France, and lost when France fell ?

and yes, that is the idea, a good landing in the West, makes trouble for the Germens, that is the way it should be, and as you are not going to land and take Berlin on the same turn, the AI or player can react to defend Berlin, the East is to bleed em, the West is to finish them off (in most of my Allied games, the AI was able to react to any landings in the West, but I am normally strong enough to wear down the defenders, a weak landing or rush, gets slaughtered)

Paris, really isn't a good target for a single rush, it is better to spead out the attack, and make the area too weak to defend, and then push

I think the rules work with in the game system and what the system is trying to show



Ola Berli -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 7:55:14 PM)

Sarge,

very well written. I 100% agree with You.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (11/30/2007 8:58:26 PM)

LoL, now that is something not seem to often, well writen and Sarge in the same line :)

I tend to end up with a lot of Sargeisms when write



miral -> RE: Not able to recapture capital before surrender (12/28/2007 9:13:12 PM)

I understand what karlxii is troubled about. In a recent game against the ai, me playing the Allies the Germans had a very large army in Russia, had taken Lenningrad and was closing in on Russia. I invaded southern France and rapidly advanced into Germany and the Ai did nothing except continue to batter away at Moscow. When I took Berlin Germany must have had twice as many units total on the map as the Allies combined.

Perhaps the solution is to have the AI react to threats to its capital more quickly and strongly.

France is a poor argument. The French effort in WWII was so awful, so incompetent, so cowardly (the generals, not the soldiers), and the collaboration of the French people with the Nazis so rapid and so widespread that France is unique. Indeed, France was the only nation conquered by the Germans whose government collaborated with them rather than go into exile. Of course, this helped give the Germans a strong dose of Victory Disease and led them to think that they could knock over Russia as easily.

I don't think anyone would argue that, had the Germans succeeded in capturing Moscow the USSR would immediately have surrendered. The result might have been a substantial German victory in the war but the Russians would have gone on fighting even if Moscow fell.

However I understand the need to simplify in this game. But the AI should be very sensitive to threads to its capital.



Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI
0.75