RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (Full Version)

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composer99 -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 3:45:06 PM)

I would consider cutting out the reference to port attacks in 7.10.5, since it seems rather superfluous. I assume that port attacks have their own description of search/surprise rolls?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 4:48:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

I would consider cutting out the reference to port attacks in 7.10.5, since it seems rather superfluous. I assume that port attacks have their own description of search/surprise rolls?

It is sort of the other way around. Port attacks reference naval air combat.

This will come up again in the naval combat results section concerning bottomed ships and 'aborting' naval units during port attacks.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 5:05:30 PM)

I am still looking for authors for the sections 3.4.6 Air Combat and 3.4.8 Land Combat.

Other material has already been written about committing air units (3.4.3 by Patrice) and using HQS and Armor (3.4.5 by Mike and Christopher).
---
Questions to answer for new players about air combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - how do I arrange my units?
3 - how do I decide whether a carrier should fly as a bomber or a fighter?
4 - how do I choose which unit to destroy/abort/clear through?
5 - when should I voluntarily abort?
6 - how do the above answers change if I have an big advantage in air units (or am at a big disadvantage)?

Referencing 3.4.3 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
--
Questions to answer for new players about land combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - which units should I include/exclude from a combat?
3 - when should I use special units (e.g., engineers, snow units)?
4 - when should I use ground support and shore bombardment?
4 - how do I prepare a defensive line (what is a good/fair/poor defensive hex)?
5 - in what order do I perform land attacks?
6 - what is a good invasion?
7 - how do I defend a coastline?
8 - how do the above answers change: for large land offensives (e.g., Germany vs USSR), when the battlefield is constrained (e.g., Germany vs France), when the unit count per hex is low (e.g., in China, in North Africa)?

Referencing 3.4.5 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
===
If you can answer some (or all) of these questions, please post that writeup here. It is easier for me to cobble together answers from multiple people than it is to write everything from scratch.





composer99 -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 5:59:57 PM)

Since I am not playing my regular weekly WiF game tonight (our host is a proud father of #3) I can probably answer some of those questions; of course it will also be good for other people to do so as well.




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 9:56:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.5 Search Die Rolls (RAC 11.5.5)

The first thing done in this subphase is to make sure that both sides have units committed to the naval combat. It is possible that one side had only submarines and decided to not commit their subs. In that case, the combat is over.

Assuming that a naval combat is still possible, MWIF generates random numbers to simulate rolling dice for the search rolls for both sides. During port attacks the non-phasing side has fixed numbers for their die rolls: 5 for a major port and 3 for a minor port. MWIF figures out which sides had successful search rolls and informs everyone as to what happened.

There are 3 possible outcomes of the search rolls:
• Neither side succeeds - the combat is over.
• Both sides succeed - MWIF records this fact and advances the sequence of play to the next subphase.
• One side succeeds and the other fails - MWIF records who ‘won’ and advances the sequence of play to the next subphase.

If you talk about Port Attacks here, you should specify that Port Attacks Search Rolss don't have find / not find results. The Seartch Rolls are only used to calculate the surprise points.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/23/2009 10:45:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.5 Search Die Rolls (RAC 11.5.5)

The first thing done in this subphase is to make sure that both sides have units committed to the naval combat. It is possible that one side had only submarines and decided to not commit their subs. In that case, the combat is over.

Assuming that a naval combat is still possible, MWIF generates random numbers to simulate rolling dice for the search rolls for both sides. During port attacks the non-phasing side has fixed numbers for their die rolls: 5 for a major port and 3 for a minor port. MWIF figures out which sides had successful search rolls and informs everyone as to what happened.

There are 3 possible outcomes of the search rolls:
• Neither side succeeds - the combat is over.
• Both sides succeed - MWIF records this fact and advances the sequence of play to the next subphase.
• One side succeeds and the other fails - MWIF records who ‘won’ and advances the sequence of play to the next subphase.

If you talk about Port Attacks here, you should specify that Port Attacks Search Rolss don't have find / not find results. The Seartch Rolls are only used to calculate the surprise points.


Good point.




Anendrue -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 1:39:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am still looking for authors for the sections 3.4.6 Air Combat and 3.4.8 Land Combat.

Other material has already been written about committing air units (3.4.3 by Patrice) and using HQS and Armor (3.4.5 by Mike and Christopher).
---
Questions to answer for new players about air combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - how do I arrange my units?
3 - how do I decide whether a carrier should fly as a bomber or a fighter?
4 - how do I choose which unit to destroy/abort/clear through?
5 - when should I voluntarily abort?
6 - how do the above answers change if I have an big advantage in air units (or am at a big disadvantage)?

Referencing 3.4.3 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
--
Questions to answer for new players about land combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - which units should I include/exclude from a combat?
3 - when should I use special units (e.g., engineers, snow units)?
4 - when should I use ground support and shore bombardment?
4 - how do I prepare a defensive line (what is a good/fair/poor defensive hex)?
5 - in what order do I perform land attacks?
6 - what is a good invasion?
7 - how do I defend a coastline?
8 - how do the above answers change: for large land offensives (e.g., Germany vs USSR), when the battlefield is constrained (e.g., Germany vs France), when the unit count per hex is low (e.g., in China, in North Africa)?

Referencing 3.4.5 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
===
If you can answer some (or all) of these questions, please post that writeup here. It is easier for me to cobble together answers from multiple people than it is to write everything from scratch.




Steve, I am an avid fan of WiF. Due to remote military assigjnments over the years and a major illness my gameplay has mostly been solo (except for 2 games in the original version) though. I would love to help out with the writingl however, I have found that I am usually in the oops I didn't realize that category. Especially as I follow any of the rules discussions. Therefore I believe too many mistakes would creep in creating too much wasted discussion time this close to release. Is there something else I could do to assist?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 7:39:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am still looking for authors for the sections 3.4.6 Air Combat and 3.4.8 Land Combat.

Other material has already been written about committing air units (3.4.3 by Patrice) and using HQS and Armor (3.4.5 by Mike and Christopher).
---
Questions to answer for new players about air combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - how do I arrange my units?
3 - how do I decide whether a carrier should fly as a bomber or a fighter?
4 - how do I choose which unit to destroy/abort/clear through?
5 - when should I voluntarily abort?
6 - how do the above answers change if I have an big advantage in air units (or am at a big disadvantage)?

Referencing 3.4.3 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
--
Questions to answer for new players about land combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - which units should I include/exclude from a combat?
3 - when should I use special units (e.g., engineers, snow units)?
4 - when should I use ground support and shore bombardment?
4 - how do I prepare a defensive line (what is a good/fair/poor defensive hex)?
5 - in what order do I perform land attacks?
6 - what is a good invasion?
7 - how do I defend a coastline?
8 - how do the above answers change: for large land offensives (e.g., Germany vs USSR), when the battlefield is constrained (e.g., Germany vs France), when the unit count per hex is low (e.g., in China, in North Africa)?

Referencing 3.4.5 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
===
If you can answer some (or all) of these questions, please post that writeup here. It is easier for me to cobble together answers from multiple people than it is to write everything from scratch.




Steve, I am an avid fan of WiF. Due to remote military assigjnments over the years and a major illness my gameplay has mostly been solo (except for 2 games in the original version) though. I would love to help out with the writingl however, I have found that I am usually in the oops I didn't realize that category. Especially as I follow any of the rules discussions. Therefore I believe too many mistakes would creep in creating too much wasted discussion time this close to release. Is there something else I could do to assist?

Thanks for offering to help.[:)]

I have a fairly mindless task that requires some care in its execution. It is somewhat on the tedious side too. To whit:

I have finished the RAC document and it contains information that I want to transfer into the Player's Manual. For instance, I took the RAC section 14.3 on air-to-air comabt and copied it, (with some slight editing to appease my sense of how English should and should not be written) into the Player's Manual section 8.7.2.4 Air-to-air Combat. I then augmented that text with a discussion of the process by which players use the Air Combat form to fight air-to-air combats in MWIF.

Once I had 8.7.2.4 completed to my satisfaction, I copied the whole section into the Help Content.txt file. I needed to insert formatting commands for the help file since MWIF needs them to make help messages appear correctly when requested by the player during a game. The formating commands are pretty easy: .P for paragraph, .T for tab, .B for a bullet point, nothing real fancy (like bold, italics, or changing fonts) is possible.

So, the task that you (or others) might be able to help me with, is to find the relevant information on a topic in RAC and copy it into Section 8 of the Player's Manual. Section 8 describes each of the 96 forms in MWIF. I will still need to write up the additional text on the process of using each form. But after I do that, I could use help in taking the finished subsection of the Player's Manual and formatting it for inclusion in the Help Content.txt file.

As I said, it is fairly boring work. Nonetheless, it needs to be done, and if no one volunteers to help, it will be done by me.
---
Why don't you reply to me by PM or email (SHokanson@HawaiianTel.net) instead of using a post herein?




Anendrue -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 2:18:43 PM)

I can do this. I'll PM you with contact information.




Orm -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 2:38:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


• Broken Down Pool - This pool contains corps/army and division sized land units. When a player breaks a corps/army sized unit into divisions, the corps/army sized unit is placed in the broken down pool. They are not available for production. If the player decides to reform divisions into a corps/army, he is restricted to choosing from among the corps units in the broken down pool. Divisions that are destroyed during combat go into the broken down pool. The player can choose to reform divisions in the broken down pool into corps/army sized units. Should he decide to do so, the corps/army unit goes into the force pool and the divisions are removed from the game.



I would have thought that the original divisions (part of WiFFE counters) would go back to the force pool rather than be removed from the game. This also forbids 2 of the original divisions that has been built into reforming to a corps. As an example I have on some ocations built one para division and one mot division and then reformed them into a para corps.

-orm



I am troubled by this pool. If this pool reforms divisions same way as the WiF rules say (cut in below) it will mean that corps will become "trapped" in Broken Down Pool for the rest of the game.

Example 1: One 8-4 broken down into two 2 strength divisions can never reform back into the 8-4 (you need to get a stronger div in the pool to get it out and then you cant get the stronger corps out of the pool).
Example 2: One 4-3 broken down into two 1 strenght divisions and one 7-4 broken down into two 2 strength divs. If a 1 strenght div and a 2 strength div are in the pool and used to reform a corps the 4-3 must be picked. Then the 7-4 will be "trapped" in the pool.


22.4.1 DivisionsReforming
Divisions can reform into a corps or army. If 2 face-up divisions are
stacked together outside of enemy ZOCs at the end of the production
step, and 1 of them is a MOT division, you can reform a corps or army of
the same type as the other division. If there are no corps or armies of that
type available, you can reform them as an INF corps or army instead.
Choose the corps or army randomly from the force pools. Keep
picking until you find one that has combat factors less than twice
those of the 2 divisions
.
Example: The Germans have a 2 factor MOT division and a 4 factor
SS ARM division stacked together at the start of the production step.
You can replace them with any SS ARM or INF Corps that has 11 or
less combat factors.





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 6:45:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


• Broken Down Pool - This pool contains corps/army and division sized land units. When a player breaks a corps/army sized unit into divisions, the corps/army sized unit is placed in the broken down pool. They are not available for production. If the player decides to reform divisions into a corps/army, he is restricted to choosing from among the corps units in the broken down pool. Divisions that are destroyed during combat go into the broken down pool. The player can choose to reform divisions in the broken down pool into corps/army sized units. Should he decide to do so, the corps/army unit goes into the force pool and the divisions are removed from the game.



I would have thought that the original divisions (part of WiFFE counters) would go back to the force pool rather than be removed from the game. This also forbids 2 of the original divisions that has been built into reforming to a corps. As an example I have on some ocations built one para division and one mot division and then reformed them into a para corps.

-orm



I am troubled by this pool. If this pool reforms divisions same way as the WiF rules say (cut in below) it will mean that corps will become "trapped" in Broken Down Pool for the rest of the game.

Example 1: One 8-4 broken down into two 2 strength divisions can never reform back into the 8-4 (you need to get a stronger div in the pool to get it out and then you cant get the stronger corps out of the pool).
Example 2: One 4-3 broken down into two 1 strenght divisions and one 7-4 broken down into two 2 strength divs. If a 1 strenght div and a 2 strength div are in the pool and used to reform a corps the 4-3 must be picked. Then the 7-4 will be "trapped" in the pool.


22.4.1 DivisionsReforming
Divisions can reform into a corps or army. If 2 face-up divisions are
stacked together outside of enemy ZOCs at the end of the production
step, and 1 of them is a MOT division, you can reform a corps or army of
the same type as the other division. If there are no corps or armies of that
type available, you can reform them as an INF corps or army instead.
Choose the corps or army randomly from the force pools. Keep
picking until you find one that has combat factors less than twice
those of the 2 divisions
.
Example: The Germans have a 2 factor MOT division and a 4 factor
SS ARM division stacked together at the start of the production step.
You can replace them with any SS ARM or INF Corps that has 11 or
less combat factors.



No problems. If you do not use the optional rule for unlimited divsions, then the game plays the same as RAW.

If you do use the optional rule, well, then a lot changes.
====
9.3.8 Unlimited Breakdown
This optional rule modifies the restrictions on: (1) breaking down corps/army sized units into divisions, and (2) reforming corps/armies from divisions. Also, this rule only applies to the major powers. Minor countries, even those that have a divisional unit as part of their force pools, are still unable to break down corps/army units into divisions or reform divisions into corps/armies (as is the case in WIF FE).

Breaking Down into Divisions
When this optional rule is in effect, rather than use the divisional units in the counter mix for breaking down divisions, when a player breaks down a corps/army unit, 2 new divisional units are created. During the break down phase you can break down into divisions an on-map, organized corps or army unit that isn't in an enemy ZOC. One of the divisions created by MWIF is of the same type as the original unit and the second is either an infantry or motorized division (the owning player chooses). The combined strength of the divisions is always half or less of the combat strength of the corps/army (e.g., a 7 factor cavalry corps breaks down into a 2 factor cavalry division and a 1 factor motorized division; a 4-3 infantry break down into a 1 factor infantry division and a 1 factor motorized division).

When a corps or army unit is broken down, it is not returned to the force pool (as it would be under the standard rules for breaking down units). Instead, it is placed in a separate pool, called the "BrokenDown Pool". MWIF maintains a record of which divisions were created when a corps/army was broken down and will not reform the corps/army unless two identical divisions are used. They do not have to be the same divisions, just identical in type and combat factors (i.e., a 1-4 infantry is a 1-4 infantry is a 1-4 infantry ).

When destroyed, divisions created by breaking down corps/armies are placed in the BrokenDown Pool. Divisions that are part of the standard counter mix, and therefore either part of setup or built by the player using the normal production rules, are returned to the force pool when destroyed.

Reforming a Corps/Army from Divisions
Players can only reform corps/armies that are in the BrokenDown Pool. This is a major change from the standard rules where you can reform on-map divisions into corps/armies that are drawn from the Force Pool. Units in the BrokenDown Pool remain there until either: (a) they are selected as the corps/army to replace 2 divisional units that are reformed into a corps/army, or (b) 2 divisional units that were created when a corps was placed in the BrokenDown Pool are destroyed. You can basically think of the later situation as the two destroyed divisional units reforming as a corps sized unit that is then returned to the force pool. Units in the BrokenDown Pool can never be built while they reside there!

Because MWIF has a record of which divisions were created when a crops/army was broken down, it permits a player to reform the exact same corps/army from those divisions (or identical divisions). This is a pleasant change from the standard rules because it lets players who reform corps/armies get the exact same unit back that they had originally broken down. Under the standard rules, the process of breaking a corps/army down and later reforming it can generate a weaker corps/army than the player had at the start.

So, here is the revised rule on reforming divisions into a corps/army:

∙ If, during the reform phase, 2 organized divisions are stacked together on map, not in enemy ZOCs, and they match the original divisions that were created from a corps/army in the BrokenDown Pool, the player can reform them into that corps/army.

∙ If more than one corps/army in the BrokenDown Pool satisfies this criteria, the player gets to choose which one is reformed.

∙ Divisions in the BrokenDown Pool can also be reformed, with the same restrictions as for on-map divisions.

Effects on Game Play
One effect of this optional rule is that the divisional units included in the counter mix are only available to the player by building them. They are never used when units are broken down into divisions nor can they be used to reform corps/armies. Indeed, when a divisional unit from the counter mix is destroyed, it is treated differently from one created through breakdown. Those from the counter mix go back into the force pools, while those divisions created when a corps/army is broken down go into the BrokenDown Pool when they are destroyed. Whenever divisions are used to reform a corps/army, the divisions are removed from the game.

However, for all other game play purposes there is no difference between the divisional units from the counter mix and those created when a corps/army is broken down into divisions.

The effect this rule has on play balance is uncertain and controversial. On the one hand it removes a somewhat artificial restriction on breaking down units that was imposed by the counter sheet limitations of WIF FE. On the other hand, it enables the Japanese player, for example, to generate a lot of divisions, place them on SCS units and invade numerous islands and other hexes in the Pacific simultaneously. Note that doing so makes the total strength of the Japanese army units much less, but that is only temporary, until they can be reformed back into corps/armies.

This change also enables the major powers to use divisions more readily for taking casualties during land combat. But that applies to all the major powers, both on offense and defense. Again, breaking down corps/armies will reduce the total combat strength of the forces in the front lines. And one last use for this increase in the number of divisions is the opportunity to hold individual hexes with less expensive divisional units. This can be of use to Germany in Norway, and Japan for holding islands in the Pacific, as just 2 examples. It also has potential for helping to defending the somewhat porous frontlines and exposed supply lines in China.




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 7:23:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
No problems. If you do not use the optional rule for unlimited divsions, then the game plays the same as RAW.

If you do use the optional rule, well, then a lot changes.
====
9.3.8 Unlimited Breakdown
This optional rule modifies the restrictions on: (1) breaking down corps/army sized units into divisions, and (2) reforming corps/armies from divisions. Also, this rule only applies to the major powers. Minor countries, even those that have a divisional unit as part of their force pools, are still unable to break down corps/army units into divisions or reform divisions into corps/armies (as is the case in WIF FE).

Breaking Down into Divisions
When this optional rule is in effect, rather than use the divisional units in the counter mix for breaking down divisions, when a player breaks down a corps/army unit, 2 new divisional units are created. During the break down phase you can break down into divisions an on-map, organized corps or army unit that isn't in an enemy ZOC. One of the divisions created by MWIF is of the same type as the original unit and the second is either an infantry or motorized division (the owning player chooses). The combined strength of the divisions is always half or less of the combat strength of the corps/army (e.g., a 7 factor cavalry corps breaks down into a 2 factor cavalry division and a 1 factor motorized division; a 4-3 infantry break down into a 1 factor infantry division and a 1 factor motorized division).

When a corps or army unit is broken down, it is not returned to the force pool (as it would be under the standard rules for breaking down units). Instead, it is placed in a separate pool, called the "BrokenDown Pool". MWIF maintains a record of which divisions were created when a corps/army was broken down and will not reform the corps/army unless two identical divisions are used. They do not have to be the same divisions, just identical in type and combat factors (i.e., a 1-4 infantry is a 1-4 infantry is a 1-4 infantry ).

When destroyed, divisions created by breaking down corps/armies are placed in the BrokenDown Pool. Divisions that are part of the standard counter mix, and therefore either part of setup or built by the player using the normal production rules, are returned to the force pool when destroyed.

Reforming a Corps/Army from Divisions
Players can only reform corps/armies that are in the BrokenDown Pool. This is a major change from the standard rules where you can reform on-map divisions into corps/armies that are drawn from the Force Pool. Units in the BrokenDown Pool remain there until either: (a) they are selected as the corps/army to replace 2 divisional units that are reformed into a corps/army, or (b) 2 divisional units that were created when a corps was placed in the BrokenDown Pool are destroyed. You can basically think of the later situation as the two destroyed divisional units reforming as a corps sized unit that is then returned to the force pool. Units in the BrokenDown Pool can never be built while they reside there!

Because MWIF has a record of which divisions were created when a crops/army was broken down, it permits a player to reform the exact same corps/army from those divisions (or identical divisions). This is a pleasant change from the standard rules because it lets players who reform corps/armies get the exact same unit back that they had originally broken down. Under the standard rules, the process of breaking a corps/army down and later reforming it can generate a weaker corps/army than the player had at the start.

So, here is the revised rule on reforming divisions into a corps/army:

∙ If, during the reform phase, 2 organized divisions are stacked together on map, not in enemy ZOCs, and they match the original divisions that were created from a corps/army in the BrokenDown Pool, the player can reform them into that corps/army.

∙ If more than one corps/army in the BrokenDown Pool satisfies this criteria, the player gets to choose which one is reformed.

∙ Divisions in the BrokenDown Pool can also be reformed, with the same restrictions as for on-map divisions.

Effects on Game Play
One effect of this optional rule is that the divisional units included in the counter mix are only available to the player by building them. They are never used when units are broken down into divisions nor can they be used to reform corps/armies. Indeed, when a divisional unit from the counter mix is destroyed, it is treated differently from one created through breakdown. Those from the counter mix go back into the force pools, while those divisions created when a corps/army is broken down go into the BrokenDown Pool when they are destroyed. Whenever divisions are used to reform a corps/army, the divisions are removed from the game.

However, for all other game play purposes there is no difference between the divisional units from the counter mix and those created when a corps/army is broken down into divisions.

The effect this rule has on play balance is uncertain and controversial. On the one hand it removes a somewhat artificial restriction on breaking down units that was imposed by the counter sheet limitations of WIF FE. On the other hand, it enables the Japanese player, for example, to generate a lot of divisions, place them on SCS units and invade numerous islands and other hexes in the Pacific simultaneously. Note that doing so makes the total strength of the Japanese army units much less, but that is only temporary, until they can be reformed back into corps/armies.

This change also enables the major powers to use divisions more readily for taking casualties during land combat. But that applies to all the major powers, both on offense and defense. Again, breaking down corps/armies will reduce the total combat strength of the forces in the front lines. And one last use for this increase in the number of divisions is the opportunity to hold individual hexes with less expensive divisional units. This can be of use to Germany in Norway, and Japan for holding islands in the Pacific, as just 2 examples. It also has potential for helping to defending the somewhat porous frontlines and exposed supply lines in China.


I think that this is great. A great improvement over CWiF, and a great improvement over WiF FE in that matter.

The only thing I do not like, is that you can't reform with divisions that are from the force pool. Why just reform into a random corps that is in the force pool, that is able to be reformed from those divisions ?
The problem is that if the player does not know that he can't reform a corps from those DIVs, he might move them on the board so that they finish the turn in the same hex, only to discover that he is denied the ability to reform them. This can be pretty upsetting for players.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/24/2009 8:14:00 PM)

I am going to add another status indicator to the units.

There is an open slot in the upper right corner which I intend to use for:
1 - Air units: that can fly as either fighters or bombers, to indicate whether they are a fighter (white) or bomber (gray).
2 - Naval units: to indicate if they have performed an interception attempt (blue); if not blank.
3 - Divisional units: that have been generated by breaking down a crops/army (brown); if not blank.

I am purposefully not using red, green, and yellow since the adjacent status indicator uses those (supply status).




Orm -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/25/2009 12:23:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Breaking Down into Divisions
When this optional rule is in effect, rather than use the divisional units in the counter mix for breaking down divisions, when a player breaks down a corps/army unit, 2 new divisional units are created. During the break down phase you can break down into divisions an on-map, organized corps or army unit that isn't in an enemy ZOC. One of the divisions created by MWIF is of the same type as the original unit and the second is either an infantry or motorized division (the owning player chooses). The combined strength of the divisions is always half or less of the combat strength of the corps/army (e.g., a 7 factor cavalry corps breaks down into a 2 factor cavalry division and a 1 factor motorized division; a 4-3 infantry break down into a 1 factor infantry division and a 1 factor motorized division).



A 7 factor cavalry corps broken down (halving 7 combat factors to 3.5 rounding up to 4) would yield a 2 factor cavalry division and a 2 factor motoried division according to WiF rules. Is this an intentional change from WiF rules?

Cut from - 22.4.1 Divisions
When you break down a corps or army, you can select any divisions
from your force pools but their total combat factors can’t exceed half
(rounding up) those of the corps or army you break down.





peskpesk -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/25/2009 4:39:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


• Broken Down Pool - This pool contains corps/army and division sized land units. When a player breaks a corps/army sized unit into divisions, the corps/army sized unit is placed in the broken down pool. They are not available for production. If the player decides to reform divisions into a corps/army, he is restricted to choosing from among the corps units in the broken down pool. Divisions that are destroyed during combat go into the broken down pool. The player can choose to reform divisions in the broken down pool into corps/army sized units. Should he decide to do so, the corps/army unit goes into the force pool and the divisions are removed from the game.



I would have thought that the original divisions (part of WiFFE counters) would go back to the force pool rather than be removed from the game. This also forbids 2 of the original divisions that has been built into reforming to a corps. As an example I have on some ocations built one para division and one mot division and then reformed them into a para corps.

-orm

If the player is not using the optional rule for unlimited divisions, then there is no broken down pool and the rules follow RAW/RAC.

But if that optional rule is in use, I want to prevent the player from exploiting the rule. For example, you could:
(1) build two countersheet divisions (that's fine, no problem, countersheet divisions are the only divisions that ever appear in the force pool),
(2) then you break down a corps into two anonymous units (generated by MWIF),
(3) then you reform a corps using one of each type of division,
(4) and do that a second time.
(5) If the countersheet divisions go back into the force pool, then you can rebuild them, ending up with 2 corps/armies and 2 divisions on the map.

I have to think this through a little more at the detail level, but the basic concern of my logic is valid (I believe).


Can’t a simple fix be that the countersheet divisions division can’t be used to reform a corps unless the other division used is also a countersheet division? This way it’s not possible to do the exploit you described to get more corps and armies. This allows the RAW/RAC original rule to apply for the countersheet divisions; they can be able to be build time after time again (after being destroyed during combat).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To quote Gone with the Wind:
"I can't think about this now. I'll think about it tomorrow."



Done thinking?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/25/2009 6:30:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Breaking Down into Divisions
When this optional rule is in effect, rather than use the divisional units in the counter mix for breaking down divisions, when a player breaks down a corps/army unit, 2 new divisional units are created. During the break down phase you can break down into divisions an on-map, organized corps or army unit that isn't in an enemy ZOC. One of the divisions created by MWIF is of the same type as the original unit and the second is either an infantry or motorized division (the owning player chooses). The combined strength of the divisions is always half or less of the combat strength of the corps/army (e.g., a 7 factor cavalry corps breaks down into a 2 factor cavalry division and a 1 factor motorized division; a 4-3 infantry break down into a 1 factor infantry division and a 1 factor motorized division).



A 7 factor cavalry corps broken down (halving 7 combat factors to 3.5 rounding up to 4) would yield a 2 factor cavalry division and a 2 factor motoried division according to WiF rules. Is this an intentional change from WiF rules?

Cut from - 22.4.1 Divisions
When you break down a corps or army, you can select any divisions
from your force pools but their total combat factors can’t exceed half
(rounding up) those of the corps or army you break down.



My mistake. I sometimes rely on my memory rather than looking at the text for a particular rule (or reading the actual lines of code). I checked the code out for breaking down units several years ago and it was written correctly vis-a-vis RAW.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/25/2009 6:31:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk


quote:

ORIGINAL: peskpesk


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


• Broken Down Pool - This pool contains corps/army and division sized land units. When a player breaks a corps/army sized unit into divisions, the corps/army sized unit is placed in the broken down pool. They are not available for production. If the player decides to reform divisions into a corps/army, he is restricted to choosing from among the corps units in the broken down pool. Divisions that are destroyed during combat go into the broken down pool. The player can choose to reform divisions in the broken down pool into corps/army sized units. Should he decide to do so, the corps/army unit goes into the force pool and the divisions are removed from the game.



I would have thought that the original divisions (part of WiFFE counters) would go back to the force pool rather than be removed from the game. This also forbids 2 of the original divisions that has been built into reforming to a corps. As an example I have on some ocations built one para division and one mot division and then reformed them into a para corps.

-orm

If the player is not using the optional rule for unlimited divisions, then there is no broken down pool and the rules follow RAW/RAC.

But if that optional rule is in use, I want to prevent the player from exploiting the rule. For example, you could:
(1) build two countersheet divisions (that's fine, no problem, countersheet divisions are the only divisions that ever appear in the force pool),
(2) then you break down a corps into two anonymous units (generated by MWIF),
(3) then you reform a corps using one of each type of division,
(4) and do that a second time.
(5) If the countersheet divisions go back into the force pool, then you can rebuild them, ending up with 2 corps/armies and 2 divisions on the map.

I have to think this through a little more at the detail level, but the basic concern of my logic is valid (I believe).


Can’t a simple fix be that the countersheet divisions division can’t be used to reform a corps unless the other division used is also a countersheet division? This way it’s not possible to do the exploit you described to get more corps and armies. This allows the RAW/RAC original rule to apply for the countersheet divisions; they can be able to be build time after time again (after being destroyed during combat).



quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
To quote Gone with the Wind:
"I can't think about this now. I'll think about it tomorrow."



Done thinking?

About this? Yeah.




composer99 -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/26/2009 5:07:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
About that, I'd say that I often have seen offensive chits used to improve an assault on key island invasions. Don't forget that the HQ need to invade to apply his benefits to the other invading units.


Since RAW 16, subsection "HQ benefits" specifies that the only requirement to use HQ benefits in an offensive chit is that it (a) be in range, and (b) not be on a transport, (and that you ignore terrain among other things) I would say this is not necessarily the case. For example, an HQ with sufficient range based in Albania or Yugoslavia can provide support to units invading Italy via a land o-chit.

The same could take place if the HQ is already present on an adjacent island in the Pacific, especially at the new map scale. You could, for example, land on a freebie island not far from Truk with Marines, walk up to close enough for the HQ to provide benefits, and then let 'er rip.

But if there is nowhere for the HQ to be nearby where it can provide benefits, then, yes, it must take part in the attack.




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/26/2009 7:54:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
About that, I'd say that I often have seen offensive chits used to improve an assault on key island invasions. Don't forget that the HQ need to invade to apply his benefits to the other invading units.


Since RAW 16, subsection "HQ benefits" specifies that the only requirement to use HQ benefits in an offensive chit is that it (a) be in range, and (b) not be on a transport, (and that you ignore terrain among other things) I would say this is not necessarily the case. For example, an HQ with sufficient range based in Albania or Yugoslavia can provide support to units invading Italy via a land o-chit.

The same could take place if the HQ is already present on an adjacent island in the Pacific, especially at the new map scale. You could, for example, land on a freebie island not far from Truk with Marines, walk up to close enough for the HQ to provide benefits, and then let 'er rip.

But if there is nowhere for the HQ to be nearby where it can provide benefits, then, yes, it must take part in the attack.

Yes, this is all right.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 12:58:03 AM)

And here is the last of Section 7 Sequence of Play for the Player's Manual (I get to erase another task item off my white board):
===
7.10.10 Air-to-air Combat (RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6)

Naval Air combat starts with identifying all the carrier air units included in the combat and separating them from their carriers; they fly into battle. When not playing with the optional rule Carrier Air Planes, for each participating carrier MWIF creates a temporary carrier air unit, which players manipulate at various points in the naval air combat (e.g., assigning whether the unit is a fighter or bomber, and arranging units for air-to-air combat). These temporary carrier air units have air-to-air and air-to-sea factors equal to the class of the carrier they represent. The air-to-air factor is used when the temporary air unit flies as a fighter and the air-to-sea factor when it flies as a bomber.

Regardless of whether the optional rule for carrier air units is being used, MWIF then lets all players, simultaneously, decide which of their engaged air units are flying as fighters and which are flying as bombers. Only fighter-bombers and carrier air units have this flexibility, and even for them there are many cases where the unit must fly as a fighter (e.g., if the unit has an air-to-sea factor of zero).

After all air units have been assigned a role as either fighter or bomber (see section 8.7.2.32 for details of using the Plane Role form), a standard air-to-air combat is performed (see section 7.9). If zero bombers survive the air-to-air combat, MWIF advances the sequence of play to the subphase 7.10.21, Voluntary Side Abort by Initiating Side. Otherwise, the sequence of play advances to the subphase Anti-air Combat by Non-Initiating Side.

7.10.11 Anti-air Combat by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6)

If there are no bombers from the initiating side remaining in the attack, MWIF skips this subphase and advances the sequence of play to the subphase Anti-air Combat by Initiating Side. Conversely, if there are bombers from the initiating side left, they are subject to anti-aircraft fire (see RAC 11.5.9). Then once again MWIF checks to see if there are bombers from the initiating side remaining in the attack.

If some bombers from the initiating side remain, MWIF advances the sequence of play to the subphase Naval Air Attack by Initiating Side. Otherwise, it skips to the subphase Anti-air Combat by Initiating Side.

7.10.12 Naval Air Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6)

This subphase executes the actual naval air attack by the initiating side’s bombers on the non-initiating side’s naval units. MWIF uses the naval combat results table to determine what damage was inflicted, if any. The four possible results are: no effect, aborted, damaged, and destroyed.

The team leader for the initiating side chooses the first target and the sides alternate choosing targets thereafter. If one side had the advantage of surprise and spent surprise points to choose a target, then they get to choose the target when normally their opponent would choose. That is, the side that doesn’t have surprise loses its ‘turn’ to choose a target, and the other side chooses 3 in a row (or more if more surprises points were spent on choosing targets). See section 8.7.2.30 for details concerning the use of the Naval Combat Results form.

As the target for each result is determined, MWIF processes those results by generating a random number. Depending on the defense factor of the target and the generated random number, the target either receives the result indicated, or a result “one less” severe. See RAC section 11.5.8 for details about this and other naval combat results. Should convoys receive adverse results, MWIF automatically splits a large convoy unit into smaller ones. For example, if one convoy is destroyed, MWIF will split a 4 point convoy unit into a 3 point unit and a 1 point unit, and destroy the 1 point convoy.

Any aborting land based air units are placed in the Return To Base Stack and returned to a land hex at the end of the combat round. Naval units which have aborted are placed in the Naval Combat Abort Queue and processed after this naval combat is completely over (see section 11.13.6).

Regardless of the naval combat results, all carrier air units are returned to their carriers at the end of the naval combat round. Damaged naval units remain in the sea area and may end up participating in future naval combat rounds of this naval combat. However, once this naval combat is completely over, all damaged naval units are placed in the Naval Abort Queue and processed the same as other units therein (see section 11.13.6).

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Anti-air Combat by Initiating Side.

7.10.13 Anti-air Combat by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6)

This is the same as 7.10.11 except the sides are reversed. When this subphase is over, MWIF advances the sequence of play to either Naval Air Attack by Non-Initiating Side, or skips that subphase and advances to end of naval combat round processing (as described in 7.10.12).

7.10.14 Naval Air Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.9 & 11.5.6)

This is the same as 7.10.12 except the sides are reversed. When this subphase is over, MWIF advances the sequence of play to the end of naval combat round processing (as described in 7.10.12).

7.10.15 Surface Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.8 & 11.5.6)

Both sides must have surface naval units included in the combat for this type of combat to take place. If either side does not, then MWIF advances the sequence of play to end of naval combat round. Usually, if MWIF processes to this subphase a naval surface combat occurs.

A surface naval combat is the simplest of the 3 types of naval combat. MWIF counts how many surface factors the initiating side has, counts the number of ships the non-initiating side has, and performs a table lookup using the naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Surface Attack by Non-Initiating Side.

7.10.16 Surface Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.8 & 11.5.6)

This subphase is identical to the previous one except the sides are reversed. When this subphase is over, MWIF advances the sequence of play to the end of naval combat round processing (as described in 7.10.12).

7.10.17 ASW Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6)

A submarine naval combat starts with the non-initiating side using its ASW (anti-submarine warfare) units to attack the initiating side’s submarines. Obviously, if the non-initiating side has no ASW units or the initiating side has no submarines, this subphase is skipped. Under those circumstances, MWIF either advances the sequence of play to the Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (if the initiating side has submarines) or to the ASW Attack by Initiating Side subphase (if they do not).

Assuming that both sides have the requisite units for this subphase to occur, MWIF counts the ASW factors of the non-initiating side, counts the submarines on the initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Submarine Attack by Initiating Side.

7.10.18 Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6)

In this subphase, MWIF counts the submarine factors on the initiating side, counts of the number of ships on non-initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase ASW Attack by Initiating Side.

7.10.19 ASW Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6)

This subphase is identical to 7.10.17, except the sides are reversed. After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Submarine Attack by Non-Initiating Side.

7.10.20 Submarine Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6)

This subphase is identical to 7.10.18, except the sides are reversed. After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the end of naval combat round processing (as described in 7.10.12).

7.10.21 Voluntary Side Abort by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.11)

In this subphase, which occurs after each round of naval combat, regardless of type of naval combat, the decision maker on the initiating side has the choice of whether to stay for another round of combat or abort some of his units. If he decides to abort a unit, all of his side’s units that were committed to combat in the immediately preceding round of naval combat must also abort. Regardless of his decision, once he has made it, MWIF advances the sequence of play to Voluntary Side Abort by Non-Initiating Side.

7.10.22 Voluntary Side Abort by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.11)

Similar to the decision made in the previous subphase, the non-initiating side can choose whether to stay or abort.

If any units at war with each other remain in the sea area, MWIF returns the sequence of play to 7.10.2, Naval Air Support by Initiating Side. If no combatants remain in the sea area, the naval combat is over and MWIF checks whether there are any units in the Naval Combat Abort Queue. If so, MWIF executes a Naval Combat Abort Digression (see section 7.13.6). If the queue is empty, MWIF returns to the point in the sequence of play from which this naval combat originated.




lomyrin -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 3:07:04 AM)

I did not see any mention of voluntay abort to the sea box after each round of air to air combat.

This is often used trying to get better fighting odds in the following round of searches.

Lars




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 3:36:58 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I did not see any mention of voluntay abort to the sea box after each round of air to air combat.

This is often used trying to get better fighting odds in the following round of searches.

Lars

Good point. This doesn't belong here but in the discussion of aborting from air-to-air combat (7.9.9 and 7.9.10). I'll add something there.




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 4:28:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

I did not see any mention of voluntay abort to the sea box after each round of air to air combat.

This is often used trying to get better fighting odds in the following round of searches.

Lars

Maybe this should be mentionned in 3.4.7 Naval Combat too ? This is a valid trick in an air to sea combat.
I wish it was made illegal, as I fail to see what reality it represents, but it is not yet. I hope it will be made illegal one day by Harry deciding that aborting to the Sea Box Section makes air units flip face-dwon (become disrupted).




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 4:38:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.17 ASW Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6)

A submarine naval combat starts with the non-initiating side using its ASW (anti-submarine warfare) units to attack the initiating side’s submarines. Obviously, if the non-initiating side has no ASW units or the initiating side has no submarines, this subphase is skipped. Under those circumstances, MWIF either advances the sequence of play to the Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (if the initiating side has submarines) or to the ASW Attack by Initiating Side subphase (if they do not).

Assuming that both sides have the requisite units for this subphase to occur, MWIF counts the ASW factors of the non-initiating side, counts the submarines on the initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Submarine Attack by Initiating Side.

Is this the special ASW pre-fire ? I suspect it is not, and it is only the normal ASW attack on SUBs.
You should inlcude the special ASW pre-fire in this sequence of play (see 22.4.19).




Froonp -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 4:39:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.18 Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6)

In this subphase, MWIF counts the submarine factors on the initiating side, counts of the number of ships on non-initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase ASW Attack by Initiating Side.

Instead of that, you should say :
"counts of the number of convoy ships on non-initiating side"
As SUBs only count the enemy convoys as ships. Escorts don't count in the target size (except ASW units, that count as CP).




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 5:31:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.17 ASW Attack by Non-Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10, 22.4.19, & 11.5.6)

A submarine naval combat starts with the non-initiating side using its ASW (anti-submarine warfare) units to attack the initiating side’s submarines. Obviously, if the non-initiating side has no ASW units or the initiating side has no submarines, this subphase is skipped. Under those circumstances, MWIF either advances the sequence of play to the Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (if the initiating side has submarines) or to the ASW Attack by Initiating Side subphase (if they do not).

Assuming that both sides have the requisite units for this subphase to occur, MWIF counts the ASW factors of the non-initiating side, counts the submarines on the initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase Submarine Attack by Initiating Side.

Is this the special ASW pre-fire ? I suspect it is not, and it is only the normal ASW attack on SUBs.
You should inlcude the special ASW pre-fire in this sequence of play (see 22.4.19).

The special ASW pre-fire is part of the optional rule for Convoys in Flames that I haven't coded yet. I know I will need to insert an additional subphase in the sequence of play to handle this.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/27/2009 5:33:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
7.10.18 Submarine Attack by Initiating Side (RAC 11.5.10 & 11.5.6)

In this subphase, MWIF counts the submarine factors on the initiating side, counts of the number of ships on non-initiating side, and performs a table lookup using the Naval combat results table. The processing of the results is the same as described in section 7.10.12.

After this subphase is over, MWIF continues the current naval combat round by advancing the sequence of play to the subphase ASW Attack by Initiating Side.

Instead of that, you should say :
"counts of the number of convoy ships on non-initiating side"
As SUBs only count the enemy convoys as ships. Escorts don't count in the target size (except ASW units, that count as CP).

Ok. I'll make it: "counts the number of convoys, ASW escorts, and ASW carriers".




Anendrue -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/28/2009 4:16:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am still looking for authors for the sections 3.4.6 Air Combat and 3.4.8 Land Combat.

Other material has already been written about committing air units (3.4.3 by Patrice) and using HQS and Armor (3.4.5 by Mike and Christopher).
---
Questions to answer for new players about air combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - how do I arrange my units?
3 - how do I decide whether a carrier should fly as a bomber or a fighter?
4 - how do I choose which unit to destroy/abort/clear through?
5 - when should I voluntarily abort?
6 - how do the above answers change if I have an big advantage in air units (or am at a big disadvantage)?

Referencing 3.4.3 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
--
Questions to answer for new players about land combat are:
1 - what are good odds?
2 - which units should I include/exclude from a combat?
3 - when should I use special units (e.g., engineers, snow units)?
4 - when should I use ground support and shore bombardment?
4 - how do I prepare a defensive line (what is a good/fair/poor defensive hex)?
5 - in what order do I perform land attacks?
6 - what is a good invasion?
7 - how do I defend a coastline?
8 - how do the above answers change: for large land offensives (e.g., Germany vs USSR), when the battlefield is constrained (e.g., Germany vs France), when the unit count per hex is low (e.g., in China, in North Africa)?

Referencing 3.4.5 can be made rather than repeating the same information multiple time.
===
If you can answer some (or all) of these questions, please post that writeup here. It is easier for me to cobble together answers from multiple people than it is to write everything from scratch.




Steve, I am an avid fan of WiF. Due to remote military assigjnments over the years and a major illness my gameplay has mostly been solo (except for 2 games in the original version) though. I would love to help out with the writingl however, I have found that I am usually in the oops I didn't realize that category. Especially as I follow any of the rules discussions. Therefore I believe too many mistakes would creep in creating too much wasted discussion time this close to release. Is there something else I could do to assist?

Thanks for offering to help.[:)]

I have a fairly mindless task that requires some care in its execution. It is somewhat on the tedious side too. To whit:

I have finished the RAC document and it contains information that I want to transfer into the Player's Manual. For instance, I took the RAC section 14.3 on air-to-air comabt and copied it, (with some slight editing to appease my sense of how English should and should not be written) into the Player's Manual section 8.7.2.4 Air-to-air Combat. I then augmented that text with a discussion of the process by which players use the Air Combat form to fight air-to-air combats in MWIF.

Once I had 8.7.2.4 completed to my satisfaction, I copied the whole section into the Help Content.txt file. I needed to insert formatting commands for the help file since MWIF needs them to make help messages appear correctly when requested by the player during a game. The formating commands are pretty easy: .P for paragraph, .T for tab, .B for a bullet point, nothing real fancy (like bold, italics, or changing fonts) is possible.

So, the task that you (or others) might be able to help me with, is to find the relevant information on a topic in RAC and copy it into Section 8 of the Player's Manual. Section 8 describes each of the 96 forms in MWIF. I will still need to write up the additional text on the process of using each form. But after I do that, I could use help in taking the finished subsection of the Player's Manual and formatting it for inclusion in the Help Content.txt file.

As I said, it is fairly boring work. Nonetheless, it needs to be done, and if no one volunteers to help, it will be done by me.
---
Why don't you reply to me by PM or email (SHokanson@HawaiianTel.net) instead of using a post herein?


quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I can do this. I'll PM you with contact information.



Unfortunately i have been recalled to active duty for the next 6 months. So Steve still needs help with this. Could someone step up and please give him a hand?




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/29/2009 7:33:15 PM)

Here is the first of two writeups I received from Composer99 for the Player's Manual.[&o][&o] This looks real good to me.[:)]
=============
3.4.6 Air-to-air Combat

Section 3.4.3 includes a great deal of information on the use of air units prior to the actual air-to-air combat, including when and what unit to commit to missions. This section deals with air-to-air combats themselves.

Evaluating an Air-to-air Combat
In any given air-to-air combat, as with any given theatre, you will find yourself in a situation of superiority, rough parity, or inferiority. Please refer to RAC section 14.3.2 for how air-to-air combat values are calculated. You have a superior air combat position if you have a +2 or better advantage in air-to-air combat, an inferior position if you have a -3 or worse disadvantage in air-to-air combat, and you are in a position of rough parity if your range from a +1 to a -2 disadvantage in the air-to-air combat.

Superiority In a position of superiority, your chance of shooting down or aborting an opponent's air unit during any given round of air combat ranges from 64% to 81%, while you are likely to clear through enemy bombers (or allow bounce combats on your own air units) no more than 28% of the time.

Inferiority In an air-to-air combat with inferior position, you are going to clear through enemy bombers (or allow bounces on your air units) at best half of the time (at least 51% probability in any given round) and at worst four times out of five. Your ability to inflict harm on the enemy will range from a modest 36% chance to a paltry 12% chance (in this last case only a 2% chance of killing an enemy unit!).

Rough Parity In the rough parity range, your chance of inflicting a negative result on enemy air units ranges from 42% to 56%, while your chance of the enemy getting cleared through results you don't want ranges from 44% to 28% (with the 'no result' result taking place the rest of the time).

As such, combats in rough parity can be either fairly volatile or fairly static depending on the outcome of the die rolls (i.e., random number generation), while lopsided combats not only favor the side with superiority at the outset, but generally will become more lopsided as they go on.

Summary Arranging for every single air-to-air combat you take part in to be at superiority is impossible, especially when you don't have superiority at the strategic level. And even when you have air superiority, you will not have enough fighters to always fight with superiority. You therefore want to at least be at the low end of rough parity for key air combats when you are at a disadvantage and at the high end of rough parity when you have the advantage.

For key air battles (most often paradrops, but often ground strikes on vital hexes) you are best off trying to achieve superiority, unless you simply do not have the aircraft to make it happen (or you have to save fighters for later).

Arranging Air Units
This is pretty straightforward. You should almost always put your bombers, from front to back, in order of worst to best, unless you have expensive bombers you want to preserve even over your more effective ones. Your fighters should usually be ordered best to worst from front to back. The order in which your air units are initially arranged is the order in which they will fight for the entire air-to-air combat unless bounce combat takes place.

Bounce Combat
As discussed in the optional air rules (see section 9.4.4), any fighter you commit to a bounce combat, if it is not aborted or destroyed during the bounce combat, is shifted from its original place in the order to the back of the line of participating fighters. As such, you do not want to use your front fighter for bounce combats unless your next fighter has comparable air-to-air factors.

Assigning Roles to Carrier Air Units
Whether playing with the optional rule for carrier air units or not, when you commit carrier air power to a combat, you will have to decide whether each participating carrier air unit will take part as a fighter or as a bomber.

As a general rule, if you have land-based fighters participating, your carrier air units will be more useful serving as bombers. When playing with carrier air units, you will have several that are better at air-to-air combat, and these can serve as principal or back-up fighters better than they will serve as bombers. On the other hand, if you are trying to defend sea lift units laden down with troops (in advance of, say, a strategic invasion of Italy, England, or Japan), you will want your carrier air unit to contribute to the air-to-air combat to maximize your air-to-air strength.

Assigning Casualties
When implementing an AX or AA result, you are generally better off shooting down or aborting the enemy's fighter if there is one. This will enable you to more effectively contest control of the skies. In particular, destroying enemy fighters is key for the Allies to establish air supremacy by the end of the game, if they hope to compete with the late-war Axis planes. Additionally, over the short-term, if the enemy runs low on fighters, he will not be able to fly bombers on missions for lack of sufficient protection.

The most obvious exception to this rule is when one of the units you have the choice to destroy/abort is an air transport laden with paradropping cargo. You should almost invariably destroy or abort it. Another possible exception, for AX results, is if the bomber is an expensive, hard-to-replace one such as the German Condor NAV or the USSR 4-engine bombers. Preventing key enemy ground strikes, especially if the bomber has 5 or more tactical factors, via AX/AA choices can also be more useful than shooting down a fighter, unless you have enough fighters to ensure that there will be additional rounds to the current air-to-air combat.

When implementing a DX or DA result, consider losing a fighter if your opponent only has a single fighter. If you are fighting at rough parity or better, you will probably abort or shoot down the fighter, resulting in all your bombers getting clear. Otherwise, as long as you have more than one bomber, lose a bomber.

If you must implement an AC result, you should always pick the worst bomber, or, if fighting air transports, the air transport with the worst cargo (division, lower-factor corps). If you are implementing a DC result, the reverse is true: always clear through the best bomber or air transported/paradropping cargo available.

Lastly, for AX and DX results, you should take into consider the cost and time to build the air unit. A 3 BP fighter, for example, not only costs more build points to replace than a 2 BP tactical bomber, but they also take longer to build. The reverse situation can also occur , where you are choosing between destroying a 4 BP strategic bomber or a 2 BP fighter. In the same vein, carrier air units are much cheaper and faster to replace than land based air units.

When to Call it Quits
Whether it is because you started at a disadvantage, or because the dice are weighted against you, you may feel compelled to abort completely from a combat. The circumstances in which you want to abort entirely are:

• If you have chased away or shot down all of an opponent's bombers (or had all your own bombers shot down or chased away). There is little point risking a fighter in these circumstances, and especially not when you are at a strategic disadvantage in the air.

• Once an air-to-air battle has turned against you. Generally, you should think about calling it quits when you are in a position of inferiority (-3 or worse) within an air-to-air battle, especially if by doing so you can prevent your strategic position from degrading. You should almost always pull the plug once your opponent has a +6 or better advantage, as half the time he will shoot down your aircraft with little chance of reciprocal devastation on your part.

• If you entered the combat as a feint. If you have managed to draw out a key enemy fighter, causing it to be disorganized in advance of some other, more crucial air mission, you want to stay in the air for one round only, and no more (unless you also want to accomplish the feinting air mission).

By contrast, particularly for massive carrier air battles at sea (and especially when playing with carrier planes), even if you find yourself at a disadvantage (either to begin with, due to surprise rolls, or over the course of time), you may want to grind it out longer than you would do normally, especially if the alternative is to have large amounts of your carrier air power get destroyed after aborting back to the CVs. After all, even at worst, your opponent has a 10% chance of clearing a bomber through. To emphasize this point a little more, naval air combats put very expensive naval units at risk, and losing a carrier often means that you are going to lose a carrier air unit too, since it will have no place to land. Therefore, continue fighting naval air combats longer than air missions over land.

Air Supremacy
It is often the case that in some theatre or another one side has near-total domination of the air. Japan in China in the early game, Germany versus the French in 1940, versus the USSR in 1941, or the Allied air supremacy (overall) in 1944 are good examples.

The side with such overwhelming superiority should attempt to fight at +1 or better in every air-to-air battle it fights, and in particular it should fight at +3 or better for all paradrops. If this is not possible, then bombers can be sent in unescorted to soak up enemy fighters at tactical inferiority to maintain strategic supremacy in other combats.

The side on the wrong end or air supremacy must gauge carefully where to commit their precious fighters to battle. Guarding HQs, key hexes in a line, and preventing paradrops are pretty much the only air battles worth fighting.





Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What kind of manual(s) should we ask for? (1/29/2009 7:36:45 PM)

And here is the second. Also awesmoe.[&o][&o]
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3.4.8 Land Combat

Successfully resolving your land combats in an impulse depends, firstly, on which combat table you are using; secondly, on the forces you have at your disposal against the forces defending against your attack; and finally (perhaps most importantly), on the result of your combat die roll (represented in MWiF by random number generation).

Probability of Outcomes

When using the 1D10 CRT your probabilities of results are linear: 10% for each of the 10 possible die rolls. That means you have as good a chance of getting the best result (10) as the worst (1). Die roll modifiers are extremely important here; a favorable sum of modifiers can make an otherwise unpleasant attack quite palatable. The most important component of achieving good attack results, however, remains the odds level.

When using the 2D10 CRT the probabilities for die rolls are much different, with extreme results occuring less frequently and the middle results occurring most often:

Die roll	Probability
2	1%
3	2%
...	...
10	9%
11	10%
12	9%
...	...
19	2%
20	1%


So, on the one hand, modest or even mediocre attacks have the potential to be devastating to the defence (i.e., roll a high number), and on the other hand, that even strong attacks can go bad (“2! I rolled a 2 with two 10 sided dice?”). Because odds levels translate into die roll modifiers, die roll modifiers are everything on this chart, especially as to get the best attack results you must get net results higher than 20.

Evaluating an attack1D10 Assault There are two perspectives for how 'good' an assault is: how favorable the casualty ratio is and whether the attacker stays organized or becomes disorganized. From the perspective of casualties, attacking with 2:1 combat odds or better is a reasonable attack, especially if the die roll modifiers are +0 or better. A good assault, from a losses perspective, is an assault at 4:1 or better.

From an organization point of view, the 1D10 Assault CRT is very unfavorable. Only once you reach 5:1 odds (with an unmodified die roll) do you have a 50% chance of your units remaining face-up.

On the whole therefore, you have a good assault if you achieve 4:1 odds, especially if your die roll modifiers end up as bonuses (so your die roll results range from 2 to 11 through 4 to 13, instead of 1 to 10).

1D10 Blitz The 1D10 Blitz CRT is more rewarding for the attacker than the Assault CRT. The losses you inflict with good results are identical to the Assault CRT; the losses you take are generally lower; and your forces are much more likely to remain organized after the attack.

This happy circumstance is in part arranged by the fact that the attacker is more likely to have positive die roll modifiers in a blitz due to combining armor bonuses with the bonuses for attacking disorganized units.

As such, you can consider yourself as having a good blitz attack if your combat odds are 3:1 or better, assuming you have positive die roll modifiers. At 3:1 combat odds, you have a base 60% chance of taking the hex and a base 30% chance of remaining organized, and each die roll modifier increases these chances by 10%.

2D10 (in general) From the chart above, you can see that 44%, or nearly half, of random-number results are in the middle range of 9-13, 28% are lower (in the range 2 through 8), and 28% higher (in the range 14 through 20). On the whole then, you have a 72% chance of getting a result of 9 or better.

2D10 Assault Based on the above analysis, a reasonable assault is one where you will get a combat result of 18 or better from the low end of this favorable range of rolls. That is, a reasonable assault is a +9 through +11 assault. An 18 means you take no losses during the battle despite being disorganized, and a 20 guarantees that you take the hex.

This shows that disorganizing units prior to attacking them is crucial when launching assaults, as an otherwise poor 2:1 (+4) or 3:1 (+6) assault becomes quite sensible if 2 or 3 of the defending forces are disorganized.

A good assault is a +12 to +14 (i.e., a die roll of 9 translates as 21 through 23 on the CRT) and an excellent assault is one that has +15 or higher modifiers.

2D10 Blitz Based on the above analysis, a reasonable blitz attack is one where you will at least take the hex 72% of the time, that is, a +7 or better blitz. This reasonable blitz becomes a good blitz in the +10-+11 range, and an excellent blitz in the +12 or better range (where at worst 72% of the time you will get a breakthrough and your forces will all remain organized save for bombarding artillery and supporting HQs).

Allocating Units to a Combat
As a general rule, you should aim to include in a combat enough units to take as acceptable losses: Militia, Garrison, and cheap divisions (if playing with these units) for assaults, and a motorized unit (division for preference) for blitzes (or for attacks which the defender gets to call the combat table if you have any participating ARM/MECH).

After that above requirement, you want to use high-factor units against strong defenders, and lower-factor units against weaker defenders, to ensure all your attacks are fairly reasonable. For blitzes, ensure that you have at least enough ARM or MECH to call the blitz, and in good weather you want to maximize your blitz bonuses.

When launching an attack in winter weather, you should aim to include as many winterized units as possible. If nothing else, your aim is to neutralize the weather penalties. The USSR, with its plentitude of winterized units in the late-game (all white-print USSR units and all USSR Mountain units and ski divisions) can even expect to earn winterized bonuses above and beyond neutralizing winter penalties, even in blizzard weather conditions.

Only use engineers and HQs when you must in combat: the former because they are few in number and precious, the latter because you want to have them available for reorganization or offensive chits. Generally, engineers are best used to spearhead o-chit-enhanced river crossings, or when you must assault a city without having enveloped it. Rarely do they come in handy to cross fortification lines (such as the Maginot).

Paratroopers are a different case. If you have the air transports and your opponents cannot effectively contest the skies, you should use them at every opportunity. When air superiority is not guaranteed, you should save them for key attacks, or simply as a serious threat, so your opponent keeps fighters in reserve to prevent your potential paradrops.

Shore Bombardment
Assuming you deployed your battleships in sufficient number to a theater where you are campaigning along the coast, you should aim to spread your shore bombardment out for: (1) the initial invasions, and (2) attacks along the coast up 1 or 2 hexes inland. Initial invasions are usually the most important attacks for which both offensive and defensive shore bombardment must be committed. To press inland, the attacker has to successfully land in the first place, and the best way to fend off an invasion is for the invaders to all die on the beaches.

After that, both offensive and defensive shore bombardment should be used when they will demonstrably affect the combat (e.g. result in an odds shift or two).

Ground Support
The attacker should rarely use ground support, unless it means getting an odds shift in his favor. Generally, the bonus provided by disorganizing enemy units and then attacking them is far more substantial; only an odds shift justifies the use of offensive ground support.

Defensive ground support, on the other hand, is immensely useful. Increasing the defender's factors can have a huge effect on decreasing the attacker's advantage, especially when there are fewer defending factors to begin with.

For example, given an attack of 20:5, if the attacker adds 5 factors of ground support, the odds change from 4:1 to 5:1. On the 2D10 CRT, the attacker adds 2 to his die roll modifier. But if the defender adds 5 factors, the odds drop from 4:1 or 2:1, and the attacker subtracts 4 from his the die roll modifier.

Playing Defence
Defence is difficult, especially when using the 2D10 combat chart. As a general rule, you want to stack your blitz units and anti-tank/anti-air guns in clear/desert hexes, your engineers in the cities, and other units in the cities, forests, swamps, and mountains. Defending from behind rivers is best of course, and if you have the ability to do so, you want to retire from one river line to the next after the first river line is crossed in force by the enemy.

It is also better to have strong stacks of units in alternating hexes than to have weak stacks of units in every hex. While it is true that the more attacks the attacker launches, the more likely that some of them will go wrong, it is also true that you will take more losses, which will tend to exacerbate your disadvantages over time. Your real aim is to funnel the opponent's attacks where you can best contain his advance and dissuade him from attacking you elsewhere (then pray he gets unlucky).

The best defensive hexes are mountains, especially if they have cities and river hexsides. These are few and far between in the major theaters of war (save for in China, the Caucasus, and the Balkans), so you will usually have to make do with forests and clear city hexes. In general you want to deny your opponent the ability to call blitz combats in hexes where he gets the blitz bonuses (clear and desert terrain).

Order of Attacks
Generally, this is of no moment: the order in which you resolve your land combats doesn't matter most of the time. When it does matter is when the outcome of an attack can affect nearby attacks.

For example, suppose you are attacking an empty coastal hex with an invasion (thus fighting a notional unit) and are also attacking an adjacent inland hex with enemy units. If you resolve the inland attack first, and the notional is no longer supported by an enemy zone of control, your invasion will now be much easier to conduct.

As another example, if by resolving attacks in a particular order you cut a hex you are attacking out of supply that also contains disorganized units, you will once again have an added advantage when you come to resolving the second attack. This is the classic envelopment attack, where a successful first attack puts an adjacent hex out of supply and easy pickings for the second attack.

So when planning your attacks during an impulse, keep an eye out for such possibilities and take advantage of them where they arise.

Invasions and Paradrops
Generally, invading or paradropping with units as part of a regular overland attack is not much different from launching the same attack without the combined arms support. What is different is when you are invading and/or paradropping onto hostile shores without the benefit of friendly land units already in theater. This can either be a tactical move (such as an invasion designed to deny Germany the use of Brest as a sub base for a turn or two) or a strategic invasion (such as Operation Sealion or Overlord).

You have four concerns when launching an invasion: you must clear the hex to destroy the notional unit (along with any other defenders), at least one of your attacking units must survive, at least some of your attackers should remain organized, and you must be aware of what counter-attack capability your opponent has (if you have not robbed him of it via ground strikes earlier in the turn or impulse).

The easiest invasion/paradrop is against a notional unit (only) in clear, non-city terrain. This is also the easiest beachhead to get blitzed off of, so you may want to invade into cities or onto mountain hexes. This can dramatically increase the difficulty of the attack, of course, but if successful, your opponent will have a harder time digging you out.

1D10 CRT
As a general rule, to ensure the best chances of getting ashore with some army left over and organized, you should aim to invade at no worst than 4:1 odds. Against notional-only or 1-unit defences, you have a base 90% of getting ashore, a base 60% chance of taking no losses, and a base 30% of remaining organized. If you are using divisions and have the CW or US armoured marines, when attacking non-city clear hexes you can use the blitz CRT, which retains the 90% of getting ashore, but improves your losses to a 70% chance of no losses, and a 50% chance of staying organized. Against 2- or 3-unit defences it will be very difficult to get 4:1 combat odds, so on the whole you should avoid such invasions unless they are of key hexes like Gibraltar or Tokyo.

2D10 CRT
When invading with the 2D10 CRT, if you are assaulting the target hex, your objective is to get, if possible, at least a +13 attack to avoid the dreaded '14' result (you also have a tidy 85% chance of clearing the hex no matter how many defenders it has and a 64% chance of staying completely organized and not taking any losses). Obviously, this is only possible when land o-chits are involved or when dropping on a weak defence (notional units only or out-of-supply disorganized units).

If a +13 invasion/paradrop is not feasible, calculate to see if a +11 is (72% of getting a shatter result), or, failing that, if you can at least get a typical reasonable assault (+9).

Of course, again, if you can use the armoured marines to call a blitz, you are in business, as suddenly any net result of 16 or better (72% with a +7) takes the hex, and any net result of 21 (72% with a +12) leaves you entirely organized and without losses.

Defending the Coast
The best way to defend against tactical invasions is to do so well before land combat begins, by having the forces in theater to wipe the invaders off the beaches as soon as they arrive; this will usually deter a tactical raid unless the attackers can pin down your counterattack forces for the turn.

For strategic invasions, you must accept that you cannot double-stack every hex you want to defend (save perhaps for hexes like Gibraltar). Instead, you have to funnel the invasion such that you can firstly contain it, and secondly blow the invaders off the beaches. As such, you must protect your counterattack forces with all the airpower you can muster, even if it means weakening your defence of the invaded hexes.

Usually, this means leaving short stretches of clear hexes where the invader only has to contend with 2-factor notionals (you should at least have every coastal hex in a unit's ZoC) that can be quickly bottled up and eventually destroyed.

For example, as the Axis powers defending Italy, you probably want the Allies to land either in the clear terrain near Taranto (but not in the city itself) or near Rome, and not in the mountains or Sicily. Leaving tempting stretches of coastal hexes that you have the ability to contain and/or eliminate immediately (always assuming that Allied airpower does not disorganize your counterattack forces, of course) is certainly preferable to having the Allies successfully landing somewhere in the mountains where you cannot hope to dislodge out.

Extreme Cases
There are three 'extreme cases' of land combat and land campaigning: low-density theaters (e.g., China and North Africa), the "killing space" or "bowling alley" of the Western Front, and the immense Eastern Front.

Low-Density Theaters In low-density areas, neither side generally has a great deal of land units floating around. In such cases it is often better to try to out-manoeuver your opponent than to launch (or be subject to) attacks, as the low quantity of units means every loss is felt keenly. This is particularly the case for China and for the belligerents in Africa, for whom reinforcements are few in number and difficult to get into theater.

The Western Front In France and north-western Europe, there are two regions that could be considered "killing spaces", (or if you are of a less bloodthirsty nature, "bowling alleys"), in which forces with armoured and air supremacy can run riot over their enemies. These are: France west of the Seine, and the area of France and Belgium between Paris and Brussels.

In the early years of the war, the Axis powers usually use the latter 'killing space' to knock over Belgium, France, and the BEF. This is usually not overly difficult as there are few hexes between Brussels and Paris. What can cause problems is that if the French have been successful at bringing troops home from overseas and/or bolstered by CW lending. Then it can be difficult to execute breakthroughs: your ravaging panzer corps will find themselves facing a solid defensive line with possibly a secondary line behind the frontline.

In the late game, the Allies must make use of both 'killing spaces' to destroy as much Axis war material as possible. In particular, once they have landed, the Allies must try to exploit the western killing space as best they can before the Axis retires across the Seine river. Once they have crossed the Seine themselves, the Allies must use the Flanders bowling alley in a mirror image of their early-war defeat and drive the Germans back in disarray to the Dyle and the Rhine. Allied air supremacy is key in this effort to disorganize as many Axis units as possible to prevent them from withdrawing in good order.

The Eastern Front Stretching from the Volga to the Oder River and from the Baltics to the Balkans, the Eastern Front (at least, once Germany and the USSR are at war) is expected to be, in a word, massive. The bulk of German land units will usually be allocated to the Eastern Front, and the USSR is the only Allied power who engages the mighty German war machine on a major land front in Europe without first having to struggle ashore in Spain, Italy, France, or elsewhere.

In the early stages of a war on the Eastern Front, it is often the case that the Red Army suffers from insufficient unit density to hold a contiguous front line. If that situation arises, then the USSR often has to wage a war of manoeuver to avoid its army being encircled and destroyed, often with its forces being split into several mini-fronts. For their part, the Germans must be cagey when advancing or they could face supply problems if fast Red Army units break into their rear.

By contrast, by the later stages of the war, both sides have built up a substantial unit density, particularly once the front line reaches the Vistula and then the Oder river lines. The opportunities for manoeuver disappear and the conflict settles into a straight-out slugging match.

The Eastern Front also has multiple swathes of good tank country: Silesia and Western Poland, Hungary, Ukraine, southern Russia (until one hits the Caucasus, of course), and the region between Moscow and the Volga. Each side in turn must take advantage of these 'bowling alleys' to convert them into killing spaces to destroy as much of the enemy as is possible to accelerate their advances. Specifically, for Germany the region between the Dnieper and Don rivers is an ideal space to savage the Red Army, and for the USSR the region between the Vistula and the Oder is where slow or disorganized German forces can be overrun as the Red Army closes in on Berlin.





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