How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (Full Version)

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MarkShot -> How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 5:50:16 PM)

I never posted a poll, but let me ask a few curiousity questions here.

How many people are first time Harpoon customers? If first time, what was it about HCCE that made you decide to pick it up?

If not first time customers, do you also play the H2/H3 branch of the family tree of Harpoon or are you committed to just the HC branch? If only HC, then why?

For those whose only exposure has been HCCE, will this experience encourage you to take a look the other branch of Harpoon; namely H3 ANW?

Thanks.

---

My answers:

I had no prior Harpoon exposure. My naval gaming is only of the last few years relatively limited to WWII sub commerce raiding and Cold War nuke subs.

I got H3 ANW after having gotten CAW/CCAW and finding I wanted something deeper. ANW seemed to scratch that itch.

I got HCCE mainly because it was hard for me not to want compare the two.

Now, that I have HCCE, I see that I will be playing it quite a bit. It's an easy game to get attached to. In the meantime, I see HCCE kindling a desire to play more H3 to both enjoy a different flavor of the game and have an experience that at times can be somewhat more deep due features not found in the HC branch. Although I had gotten past the UI learning curve of H3, I was somewhat stuck on game play concepts and techniques. It seems that HCCE is going to help me in that area and ease me back into H3 which otherwise might have been too big of an initial step for me to take on its own.

---

Lastly, from past forum experiences, I know that there are a number of people who have very strong feelings about these two branches of the game and even about particular versions within a particular branch. When I say "strong feelings", I mean to the point of personal bitter feuds. I started this thread not to give a few very long term and troubled veterans of Harpoon a new opportunity to skirmish. I started this thread as a sincere discussion of how the two games may potentially complement one another and effectively the sum of HC and H3 may be greater than either game taken alone (for me it seem that way).

So, please, don't flame my thread. If you have a vendetta to wage than please make a fresh attack in one of the previously already muddied venues; not here. Thank you.



CV32 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 6:00:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
Now, that I have HCCE, I see that I will be playing it quite a bit. It's an easy game to get attached to. In the meantime, I see HCCE kindling a desire to play more H3 to both enjoy a different flavor of the game and have an experience that at times can be somewhat more deep due features not found in the HC branch. Although I had gotten past the UI learning curve of H3, I was somewhat stuck on game play concepts and techniques. It seems that HCCE is going to help me in that area and ease me back into H3 which otherwise might have been too big of an initial step for me to take on its own.


I think maybe you've touched on something here that a lot of Harpoon players - old and new alike - can (or should) relate to, and that is, that the various Harpoon versions (HCE, H3/ANW, and Harpoon4 paper rules) actually complement one another very well.



PaulWRoberts -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 6:52:17 PM)

In an ideal world, HC(E) and H3 would be one game, with appropriate options tailoring the play experience one way or another. But of course wargaming has never been an ideal world, and we're fortunate to have the choice of two approaches to a similar gaming experience.

I haven't jumped into HCE and I'm not sure if I will. I tend to want to concentrate on one rather than two similar games, and I'm still holding out hope for H3 to get over its bugs and issues.

The feuding that has gone on (mainly around ANW) only makes me sad, as I think about how much energy for improving Harpoon has been wasted there as heat.



dyoox01 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 7:10:05 PM)

I have both versions.  I've been playing Harpoon since the first PC version was released in the late 80s or early 90s.

I love the depth and control of H3 but the playbility of HCCE.  HCCE is a much more "fun" game for me.



Terl -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 7:22:38 PM)

I knew of Harpoon and have always wanted to give it a try. To be honest, when I would look at the sites and do a bit of reading I would be "scared" off just realizing how little I knew about naval warfare. All the talk of different databases and the jargon would throw me off (I am an old Infantry guy - about the closest I got to anything Navy related was some landing training at Coronado in the early '80's-fun times that was).

Then when Matrix released ANW I looked into it but was turned off by what I saw in the forums and the fact I was so new to the whole idea. It just seemed I would be out of my depths in it. Then HCE got released. The HCE forum is quite different in nature/tone than the ANW seems to be at times. I went ahead and bought HCE and have been enjoying it a great deal. I have learned a lot so far and have found many folks here to be very helpful (CV32 being one).

I can say, as I find myself getting more immersed into it and learning more I am more curious about ANW and may just give it a shot later. For now, much to learn [:)]



NefariousKoel -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 8:37:31 PM)

I was all over the place.

I picked up the tabletop version in 88 (I think it was) when I was a youngster. Borrowed a friend's original Harpoon for the PC and played a little but I was in my 20s at that time with cold beer and puntang on the mind.

I longed for nostalgia later on and bought the new tabletop Harpoon. Then, a few years later I got the Cold War set. Didn't play too much but got a lot of reading and re-reading done. Picked up H3 around '04. Just got HCCE (though I'd played the HC Gold demo).

Overall, I'm much more comfortable with HCE's interface other than a few niggles. My H3 3.6 has fell by the wayside, mainly due to that funky 'net activation setup they were using (I'd spend a LOT of time just trying to get it to confirm and activation my stinkin' key), the eye-straining 1280x1024 native resolution setting for my LCD and having to repeat-o-click the annoying 'close' window interface. I may still buy H3 ANW sometime in the future but HCE will keep me quite happy for some time.

Note: I'm never been a part of any inter-Harpoon bickering, this is just my preference which changes often enough with my flighty tendencies.



andym -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 9:56:03 PM)

I have played the "Fleet" series of board games and had Janes Fleet Command,and along came HCE,so im going to buy it.It looks fairly basic in its looks but seems to belie its complexity and excellent gameplay.Cant wait to get the CD version.



JRyan -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 11:23:34 PM)

I own and have played both, as some have said, I like both and each has its own flavor. If in doubt buy both, they are worth it.

I did relate to the HCE helping one understand naval warfare better and then tackling HCE. It makes sense. Sad part, the last Beta of HCE I played and the game that I just bought are very differernt. This was ready to ship and I got my %#$ handed to me the first 2 tries.....Tonight with the help of Miller Lite, I hope to do better.



NefariousKoel -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 11:40:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: andym

I have played the "Fleet" series of board games and had Janes Fleet Command,and along came HCE,so im going to buy it.It looks fairly basic in its looks but seems to belie its complexity and excellent gameplay.Cant wait to get the CD version.


It has more to it than the Fleet series or Fleet Command. I think you'll be quite happy with the gameplay.



erict -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (11/30/2007 11:55:36 PM)

I've been 'puter 'pooning since it came out on 3.5 floppys. [:D]  I never tried the board game.



NefariousKoel -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 4:08:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: erict

I've been 'puter 'pooning since it came out on 3.5 floppys. [:D] I never tried the board game.


"Board Game" isn't quite true since there's no board. I think some call it a "miniatures game" and others, such as myself, would call it a "tabletop game" since it uses miniatures rules but it comes with cardboard counters. There is no board.. err.. spoon, Grasshoppa. [;)]



erict -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 3:37:38 PM)

board game, tabletop, whatever.



Rekm41 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 3:52:28 PM)

I have just purchased this game and I am completely new to this series of games. I love to learn how to play wargames and this one seems like there is a lot to learn and I look forward to going up the curve.



Stalintc -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 4:24:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rekm41

I have just purchased this game and I am completely new to this series of games. I love to learn how to play wargames and this one seems like there is a lot to learn and I look forward to going up the curve.


Good for you mate, anything we can help you with dont hesitate to post! I hope you enjoy it! [8D]



mack2 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 4:46:44 PM)

quote:

How many people are first time Harpoon customers?

Well, kinda since it's the first time I've bought a Harpoon Game.

quote:

If first time, what was it about HCCE that made you decide to pick it up?

I'll start off by saying this is vague recollection at best, and completely made up at worst. I remember playing the old SSN-21 Seawolf game just a bit too much, then I read various clancy books and Red Storm Rising and it's game, and then found out about Harpoon. I played the demo of Classic, the display/gui of whatever H3 was called back then just put me off too much, and I've been playing it ever since. I'm not sure where I got the HC 97 version that I'd been playing from, but by the time I had the internet, this new version was in development, so I never bothered to scrounge any money to buy whatever version was purchasable then.

The wait for the new version was a tad longer than I expected. I practically forgot about it till about midway through this year.

quote:

If not first time customers, do you also play the H2/H3 branch of the family tree of Harpoon or are you committed to just the HC branch? If only HC, then why?

Just HC, the GUI and scale of HC I like more than H3.

quote:

For those whose only exposure has been HCCE, will this experience encourage you to take a look the other branch of Harpoon; namely H3 ANW?

No, I've read enough about H3 to steer clear for quite a while.



SteveF2006 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 5:55:01 PM)

Wow... what a great thread! I have been playing Harpoon since the mid 1990's. I first got a copy of Harpoon II and enjoyed it quite a bit. I never really liked the map though. It may be realistic, but I just don't care for it. Also, even though it is fun, there is too much micro management for my style and the scenarios are all very regionalized and smaller. I sure can understand why some personality types would prefer it, but it's not as much for me. Although from time to time I get the "itch" if you know what I mean!

However, will Harpoon 97, 2002, Gold and now HCE, is the version that for me, is the most fun. I like it for many reasons but let me summarize so that if someone does care to read this they won't be full bored out of their minds!

1. I like the fact that you can set up your formation editor and forget about it. I am more than happy to let the "staff" handle that aspect of the fight. I really only adjust it when my Battle Group makes a significant change in course or a new threat appears.

2. I like that fact that each scenario covers a large geographic area. This allows for great variety in many aspects of the same scenario. For instance, you may be in the Med, and fighting you way out from Israel to Gibraltar. You can have several fleets from Russian, Italian, French, Spanish, British and even German in this scenario. Then you can even put them all in and give each one a percent chance of being there. That way, every time you play, it is different and you don't know who is coming after you or where they are! And of course, you can do this with land bases and now land forces as well!

3. I like that fact that the "staff" works to replenish the supplies. I usually include several supply ships in my battle groups to account for my seemingly unlimited amount of supplies. [:D]

4. I enjoy expanding most scenarios to larger conflicts. With HCE, you can make either small very localized events or you can make very large conflicts that involve many nations.

5. I know that this is available in H3 too but I love the DB editor! I have created a new "enemy" called Opfor. I did this to both supplement other countries forces and to create more challenging scenarios. What would the US do if other nations had "Super Carriers"? [X(]

I'm sure I could go on and on but those are the main items that I enjoy about HCE. I am looking forward to another decade or more of 'Pooning Lord willing! [:)]



Rekm41 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 7:09:22 PM)

Well I have lost my first tutorial. well actually it was a draw. Am trying again.



martxyz -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 7:39:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rekm41

Well I have lost my first tutorial. well actually it was a draw. Am trying again.


Is the 1st tutorial the one where you're getting some Norwegian small ships up the coast, hoping not to get the missiles from the similar size Soviets? Forgive me, but it's so long since I played that I've lost track of all the technicalities. All I can remember is that it was crucial how you used your radar.

I've been considering getting HCCE, as I really enjoyed it (back on the Amiga) even though I can't remember the names of any ship classes or weapons systems.

One value of the massive scope of harpoon CE is that you can choose scenarios that are very unlikely to happen (which is why I liked it in the very early days). I know some people prefer it exactly the opposite way, but it's just a personal quirk. I don't like simulating something that's actually happening, happened, or likely to happen.

It's a brilliant game though, and it's really great to see it's profile rising again.

That little tutorial scenario is still an absolute blast, small though it is.




TonyE -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 8:18:57 PM)

Hehe Mart, that'd be Harpoon 2/3/ANW with Dawn Patrol, wrong game but right intent.  The HC tutorials are smaller and don't leave the player in as much danger, they are more meant to familiarize the player with the interface in a low stress environment.




joey -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/1/2007 10:58:07 PM)

I have been Harpooning since its orginal entry into the gaming world. I was floating around in the world's oceans on a submarine back then. I have played many of the interations of Harpoon since then. As for HCE, I am the type of person that likes to control as much as possible with as much informantion as possible, so I would say that the HCE version would make me a lot happier if it had a bit more control of the units involved and provide more info on each's current status in the game. One note about the game is the sub/ASW game. The subs seem to have a real advantage now which they did not have in many of the older versions. This is much more like real life. Thanks!



Duck Doc -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/2/2007 12:23:55 AM)

I have played Harpoon 3 & Harpoon Classic a bunch but fell away years ago. Each has its own strengths & weaknesses. I would agree with those that say if you are serious about Harpoon you will probably wind up getting both & enjoying both.

What frustrated me about Harpoon in my playing days was having to control the launch of each & every Sidewinder off each & every F-18, for example.

Now that I have put my toe back in to the boardgaming world & have read some rules I understand why this micromanagement came to be.

I am thinking about getting LBH/ CE but I think I will follow some excellent adivce given above & acquire the latest Harpoon miniature game rules first.

For pure suspense there is nothing like Harpoon. For infinite playability, ditto.

I am reading The Last Stand Of The Tin Can Sailors & it has really given me the itch to do some serious naval gaming. We'll see...



erict -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/2/2007 1:18:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TonyE
Hehe Mart, that'd be Harpoon 2/3/ANW with Dawn Patrol, wrong game but right intent.


That's strange. I thought Dawn Patrol was part of the original Harpoon GIUK battleset? That's the one with Norwegian PT boats vs Soviet Nanuckas. I never did well playing the Norwegian side, the Penguin missiles have no range.



mack2 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/2/2007 6:04:14 AM)

It appears to have been removed or modified. I remember the scenario you are talking about.



MarkShot -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/2/2007 6:30:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mack2

It appears to have been removed or modified. I remember the scenario you are talking about.



The Dawn Patrol scenario which you guys are talking about is documented in the Harpoon Battlebook by James DeGoey copyrighted in 1991 published by Prima. The scenario appears quite similar to the Dawn Patrol scenario which appears in H3/H2. It appears in Chapter 3 as 40 page tactical study.

I had purchased that book and the Harpoon 2 Strategy Guide used a couple of months back when I got started with H3.

I played Dawn Patrol quite a few times in H3. It would be really nice to give it a try under this version of Harpoon. Is there any way to export it out of an old version (someone showed screens of a DOS version the other day) and import it into HCCE?

Thanks.



wazza -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/3/2007 1:28:42 PM)

I've managed to use the Winharp scenario editor to extract the Dawn Patrol scenario from the GIUK battleset. My question is: is it permissible to post it? It's copyrighted, after all.

Any of the mods want to fill us in?



MarkShot -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/3/2007 4:36:56 PM)

Wazza,

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1631979



Shark7 -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/4/2007 6:42:05 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mack2

It appears to have been removed or modified. I remember the scenario you are talking about.



That would be correct. The 'Dawn Patrol' mission was the tutorial for the orginal Three-Sixty version of Harpoon (yeah, I played it when it was new and cutting edge...showing my age) [X(]. This appears to have been replaced with the beginner's walk-through scenario. I believe the change was made in one of the earlier versions, though I can't really say for sure when.

I do remember playing it in the orginal title. [:D]



TonyE -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/4/2007 6:59:26 PM)

hmm, Rene re-made it for EC2003 with EuroDB.  We could possibly shove the original back into the game if you send that extracted scenario (from the really old GIUK) to hc3@harpgamer.com, we need the full orders as well. 

Here I thought we had all of the original scenarios, oops!



andym -> RE: How do you relate to the two branches of Harpoon? (12/4/2007 8:34:31 PM)

I couldnt wait any longer!!!!! So got the download and Physical option!Installed no problems!Just have to read the manual now!



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